"Gifts" Silence Preferred

[PAC-fit]

The scholar certainly knows, there is an enormous chasm, one that views 1 Corinthians chapter 13 as a chronological "now that the gifts have passed, logic" context of the present age. Yet references to the contrary as in, majority, hold a steadfast original opinion. Both of course want to bridge the other with their last breath, disconnect the other's bridge. There is one clear winner. It is not silence.

SOURCE

 

[tablet123]

The scholar certainly knows, there is an enormous chasm, one that views 1 Corinthians chapter 13 as a chronological "now that the gifts have passed, logic" context of the present age. Yet references to the contrary as in, majority, hold a steadfast original opinion. Both of course want to bridge the other with their last breath, disconnect the other's bridge. There is one clear winner. It is not silence.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

When the saints are on earth there are things they will do in their Christian lifestyle that are not needed to do in heaven.

When we are in heaven the perfect has come and that which is in part shall be done away.

Charity never fails but those things we did on earth shall be done away with.

On earth we know in part.

In heaven prophecies shall fail for there is no event coming up for it is the end result.

Tongues shall cease which edify on earth.

Knowledge shall vanish away. for no more studying the word of God and to know it.

Charity is greater than faith and hope for they are only needed on earth.

You do not need faith and hope if you are with Jesus for you see.

But charity, love in action, will go on forever.

Of all we did on earth only love will go on forever.

It is not speaking these things will cease while on earth but they will be done away with when the saints are with Jesus.

But charity will go on forever for charity never fails.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

At the New Jerusalem the saints will remember nothing about the former earth and what they done on that earth.

They will not remember the prophesy they understood, the knowledge they had, the tongues they spoke and heard, the healings, the ministries.

They will not be needed anymore.

The part is done away with.

Like Jesus took the physical law, and ordinances, and holy days of Israel out of the way nailing them to His cross these things will be taken out of the way.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein,

that there should be time no longer.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Like time will be no longer.

Time is not a universal principle but only applies to this creation.

To schedule things with God and people.

And the sun is the measuring tool which measures a day.

Before creation everything goes on the same with nothing scheduled.

After this heaven and earth passes there is nothing scheduled.

The sun is gone so no more time to schedule things.

 

[Gideon300]

The scholar certainly knows, there is an enormous chasm, one that views 1 Corinthians chapter 13 as a chronological "now that the gifts have passed, logic" context of the present age. Yet references to the contrary as in, majority, hold a steadfast original opinion. Both of course want to bridge the other with their last breath, disconnect the other's bridge. There is one clear winner. It is not silence.

SOURCE

I did not realise that it was still such hot topic. The so-called Charismatic movement in the 70's made mainstream what was once controversial - so I thought. To me, it's obvious. Gifts are still in operation. I'm not Pentecostal (I don't subscribe to a denomination). I attended Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. I observed both the real and the fake.

Sure, when the perfect comes, the gifts will cease. If what we see now is perfection, we are in big trouble.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

My grandfather was a farmer who only had a 6th grade education; nevertheless he had a brilliant inquisitive mind who was always talking about science. He once said "I have seen the invention of the radio, airplanes, the telephone [he was even around to see the moon landing] He constantly studied. I remember the pile of books that was always on his table. Rather than spend time with other farmers he preferred to spend his time conversing with the seminary professors from the colleges he lived near.

Unfortunately, the theology he absorbed from them was that of Benjamin Warfield, who taught that miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given only as signs of apostleship and were limited to that foundational time period and then ceased. This also agreed with the propositions of 19th Century Rationalism with which my Grandfather was familiar. The result of this was that my Grandfather, when faced with impossible situations, never sought God for supernatural intervention. He approached life much as the Stoics did. He faced trials with resignation but not with faith. Once, when the region he lived in were in a drought, his pastor asked him to pray, he refused stating that his 50-year experience in that region had taught him that droughts were part of the regular weather cycle.

Although he bravely followed the scripts he had received he did not experience the grace of God. He had a resolute character but that did not help him when suffering came, as it did in time. His philosophy and theology did not bring him any comfort when he experienced loss. Theology has consequences. Those who claim the supernatural works of God have ceased, for one reason or the other, leave us no recourse when we need a miracle. In fact, when we study what Christians who lived before us wrote, we find that the outpouring of the Spirit and spiritual gifts continued to ebb and flow through the generations.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

When the saints are on earth there are things they will do in their Christian lifestyle that are not needed to do in heaven.

When we are in heaven the perfect has come and that which is in part shall be done away.

Charity never fails but those things we did on earth shall be done away with.

On earth we know in part.

In heaven prophecies shall fail for there is no event coming up for it is the end result.

Tongues shall cease which edify on earth.

Knowledge shall vanish away. for no more studying the word of God and to know it.

Charity is greater than faith and hope for they are only needed on earth.

You do not need faith and hope if you are with Jesus for you see.

But charity, love in action, will go on forever.

Of all we did on earth only love will go on forever.

It is not speaking these things will cease while on earth but they will be done away with when the saints are with Jesus.

But charity will go on forever for charity never fails.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

At the New Jerusalem the saints will remember nothing about the former earth and what they done on that earth.

They will not remember the prophesy they understood, the knowledge they had, the tongues they spoke and heard, the healings, the ministries.

They will not be needed anymore.

The part is done away with.

Like Jesus took the physical law, and ordinances, and holy days of Israel out of the way nailing them to His cross these things will be taken out of the way.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein,

that there should be time no longer.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Like time will be no longer.

Time is not a universal principle but only applies to this creation.

To schedule things with God and people.

And the sun is the measuring tool which measures a day.

Before creation everything goes on the same with nothing scheduled.

After this heaven and earth passes there is nothing scheduled.

The sun is gone so no more time to schedule things.

I am in agreement with you that when the Bible speaks of the cessation of the nine spiritual gifts this refers to the time when the Perfect has come. Then we will have no longer need the gifts because we will have full and complete knowledge based on direct experience.

As for exactly how we will experience time I have no knowledge. However, I do not believe the KJV's translation of
Revelation 10:5-6 which includes the phrase "time shall be no more" was accurate. The English word "time" is a translation of the Greek word chronos which refers to time in general, especially viewed in sequence a "succession of moments" or time in duration in the physical-space world. The word is usually means delay so the sentence should mean "There will no longer be any delay" which is how it is translated in almost every modern version of the scriptures - except for the KJV. Even the NKJV uses the word "delay"

I do not hold Minkowski's geometric-visual model of time because it allows for no sequence of events which defines what time is. Also, without sequential changes there can be no progressive redemption. God Himself acts in order to change His own relationship with the by and redeeming it. Without time, Christ could never have become incarnated and His glorious death and resurrection could never have altered anything.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I did not realise that it was still such hot topic. The so-called Charismatic movement in the 70's made mainstream what was once controversial - so I thought. To me, it's obvious. Gifts are still in operation. I'm not Pentecostal (I don't subscribe to a denomination). I attended Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. I observed both the real and the fake.

Sure, when the perfect comes, the gifts will cease. If what we see now is perfection, we are in big trouble.

I have never been Pentecostal but I believe God still responds to the needs of humanity even if that requires acting supernaturally. A thorough and accurate reading of Christian writings from the Apostolic times through the Ante-Nicene fathers to the many revivals that occurred over the ages reveals that God still is involved in our lives.
Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear
(Isaiah 59:1)
I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the LORD In the land of the living.
(Psalm 27:13)
…13 Elisha also picked up the cloak that had fallen from Elijah, and he went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the cloak of Elijah that had fallen from him and struck the waters. “Where now is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” he asked. And when he had struck the waters, they parted to the right and to the left, and Elisha crossed over.
(2 Kings 2:14)

 

[PAC-fit]

I'm not Pentecostal (I don't subscribe to a denomination). I attended Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. I observed both the real and the fake.

I have never been Pentecostal but I believe God still responds to the needs of humanity even if that requires acting supernaturally.

Then I suppose you both are in objection to the core issue of Pentecostalism and not the majority of fallacies that have plagued or deterred followers it by other heretical attitudes? Such as: Oneness Pentecostalism and Evidence-based Pentecostalism or prosperity Pentecostalism.

Anti-trinitarian Oneness is a no brainer. The other self-canceling excesses have fumbled the simplicity of expectation by faith which you correctly hold. But that is still not the core of the cessation trap. Its the refusal to embed into that expectation a handful of passages particularly in Acts that confirms the true Pentecostal mindset,

Spirit Baptism: Believes in a distinct "second work of grace" after conversion called the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Is that the form of expectation that separates your's from a Pentecostals?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Then I suppose you both are in objection to the core issue of Pentecostalism and not the majority of fallacies that have plagued or deterred followers it by other heretical attitudes? Such as: Oneness Pentecostalism and Evidence-based Pentecostalism or prosperity Pentecostalism.
Anti-trinitarian Oneness is a no brainer.

I am not sure how you define the core issue of Pentecostalism but I utterly reject any denial of the Trinity as well as the more modern errors of Word of Faith/prosperity teaching with which I am very familiar. As for whether the charismata, continued after the first century I have found that throughout the history of the Church, revivals of faith were very often attended with the supernatural working of the Holy Spirit identical with the kind of manifestations Paul referred to as "the charismata." This was observed and accepted early on and recorded in the writings of early documents such as the Didache as well as the writings of the Ante-Nicene "fathers" and even in the writings of Augustine in his latter years.

The other self-canceling excesses have fumbled the simplicity of expectation by faith which you correctly hold. But that is still not the core of the cessation trap. Its the refusal to embed into that expectation a handful of passages particularly in Acts that confirms the true Pentecostal mindset,

The Bible speaks of some who received salvation and were later "filled with the Spirit." I make no dogmatic assertion on this point other than to accept that this can happen. When Paul wrote to the Ephesians (who had ALREADY received the Spirit), he told them: “Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to reckless indiscretion. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.” (Ephesians 1:13-14)
As I am sure you already know, the Apostle's use of the present tense imperative for the verb "be filled" indicates a command to allow "filling" to occur on an ONGOING BASIS.

Spirit Baptism: Believes in a distinct "second work of grace" after conversion called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Is that the form of expectation that separates your's from a Pentecostals?

I do not have any specific dogma about whether this is a second, third or fourth work of grace which, separates me from Pentecostals. I think God answers the cry of the needy, the hungry, the broken and desperate. I think Pentecostals would be better off not seeking an experience but seeking God

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Then I suppose you both are in objection to the core issue of Pentecostalism and not the majority of fallacies that have plagued or deterred followers it by other heretical attitudes? Such as: Oneness Pentecostalism and Evidence-based Pentecostalism or prosperity Pentecostalism.

Anti-trinitarian Oneness is a no brainer. The other self-canceling excesses have fumbled the simplicity of expectation by faith which you correctly hold. But that is still not the core of the cessation trap. Its the refusal to embed into that expectation a handful of passages particularly in Acts that confirms the true Pentecostal mindset,

Spirit Baptism: Believes in a distinct "second work of grace" after conversion called the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Is that the form of expectation that separates your's from a Pentecostals?

One of my main problems with them is their insistence that being filled (or baptized) with the Spirit must be verified by receiving the gift of tongues. Although some people in the NT did experience that I found no scripture that tells us this always happens or HAS to happen. In fact, when Paul was speaking about the diversity of ministries and gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, he asked;
29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? [all of which refer to ministry gifts]
He follows this with different charismata;
29....Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?....
The way the Greek interrogatives are worded in this passage reveals whether a negative or affirmative response is expected.
In the case, of this passage, the expected answer to each question is NO.
In English we could make this clear by slightly changing the wording. The NASB expresses this idea very clearly:

29All are not apostles, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not prophets, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not teachers, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not workers of miracles, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? (anticipated response = NO)
All do not speak with tongues, do they? (anticipated response = NO)
All do not interpret, do they? (anticipated response = NO)

Being too dogmatic about our expectations is usually counterproductive. When I badly needed to be healed, the first thing I did was read all the scriptures about what Jesus did. I discovered that He did not seem to have a formula. He also never attributed to Himself any of the miraculous works He did. Instead He said simply:
19So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…(John 5:19)

 

[Edify]

Don't ever believe a man over the Word of God. Early church fathers? They never wrote a single book of the Bible. Historical? Maybe.
But understand that many of the church fathers lived during the 3 -4th centuries, making them members of the RCC.
Are you gonna take the word of a catholic over the Bible?
Study The BOOK, not a denomination.

 

[Gideon300]

Then I suppose you both are in objection to the core issue of Pentecostalism and not the majority of fallacies that have plagued or deterred followers it by other heretical attitudes? Such as: Oneness Pentecostalism and Evidence-based Pentecostalism or prosperity Pentecostalism.

Anti-trinitarian Oneness is a no brainer. The other self-canceling excesses have fumbled the simplicity of expectation by faith which you correctly hold. But that is still not the core of the cessation trap. Its the refusal to embed into that expectation a handful of passages particularly in Acts that confirms the true Pentecostal mindset,

Spirit Baptism: Believes in a distinct "second work of grace" after conversion called the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Is that the form of expectation that separates your's from a Pentecostals?

I had a number of discussions with an old time Pentecostal pastor. He was really down to earth, having been a farmer before entering full time ministry (terrible pun, I know). He had less rigid view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit than others I met. He told me that many Baptists he prayed for had already been baptised in the Holy Spirit. They just did not realise what it meant. Baptists teach that you receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. Since they don't know enough to argue, that's what they get.

I consider myself a born again believer. I don't subscribe to any denomination or "ism". I am inclined to believe that Charismatic Baptists have sound doctrine, but in our area, they have gone woke progressive. Scratch that.

"The last shall be first......" I attend an Anglican church. I disagree with a number of Anglican doctrines. However, I have learned that having the right heart is way better than having all the mental ducks in a row. The Anglican pastor welcomes my wife and I as brethren. That's not the norm in our city. I can have decent discussions with the pastor. Most places we've been to the pastor is too aloof to talk to us. We do not go to the traditional meeting. There is one without the tradition that bugs me.

The pastor and I baptised a woman we know by full immersion recently. He also sprinkles babies. I do not agree with that, but I'm not going to let that hinder fellowship.

There is one church. Denominations are the consequence of religious pride as much as anything else. There are core doctrines that are essential. We are supposed to shun divisions and divisive people. 40,000 denominations say that the church has failed abysmally.

 

[Gideon300]

One of my main problems with them is their insistence that being filled (or baptized) with the Spirit must be verified by receiving the gift of tongues. Although some people in the NT did experience that I found no scripture that tells us this always happens or HAS to happen. In fact, when Paul was speaking about the diversity of ministries and gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, he asked;
29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? [all of which refer to ministry gifts]
He follows this with different charismata;
29....Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?....
The way the Greek interrogatives are worded in this passage reveals whether a negative or affirmative response is expected.
In the case, of this passage, the expected answer to each question is NO.
In English we could make this clear by slightly changing the wording. The NASB expresses this idea very clearly:

29All are not apostles, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not prophets, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not teachers, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not workers of miracles, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? (anticipated response = NO)
All do not speak with tongues, do they? (anticipated response = NO)
All do not interpret, do they? (anticipated response = NO)

Being too dogmatic about our expectations is usually counterproductive. When I badly needed to be healed, the first thing I did was read all the scriptures about what Jesus did. I discovered that He did not seem to have a formula. He also never attributed to Himself any of the miraculous works He did. Instead He said simply:
19So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…(John 5:19)

I agree. My wife prays in tongues, I have not for about 40 years. I've been healed instantly and I've been healed over a period of days. Both were miracles. The last one was attested by one the the treating doctors, who was deeply affected.

 

[PAC-fit]

I am not sure how you define the core issue of Pentecostalism, ,"

Third paragraph my friend, along with a whole lot of what you maintain! But let's not consider OPer anything more than a common mortal,

Spirit Baptism: Believes in a distinct "second work of grace" after conversion called the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The Bible speaks of some who received salvation and were later "filled with the Spirit." I make no dogmatic assertion on this point other than to accept that this can happen.

Oh my yes, but it did happen as we observe,

", , when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been
baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus". (Acts 8:15,16)

One promise fulfilled and one (a second) soon to be.

"For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen,
to the glory of God through us. (2Corinthians 1:20)

The way the Greek interrogatives are worded in this passage reveals whether a negative or affirmative response is expected.
In the case, of this passage, the expected answer to each question is NO.
In English we could make this clear by slightly changing the wording. The NASB expresses this idea very clearly:

29All are not apostles, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not prophets, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not teachers, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
All are not workers of miracles, are they? (anticipated response = NO)
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? (anticipated response = NO)
All do not speak with tongues, do they? (anticipated response = NO)
All do not interpret, do they? (anticipated response = NO)

Love it, love the NASB too and was unaware of this highlighted iteration, , which I already held. Amen to - ALL DO NOT! For when He said: ", , that you come behind in no gift", I believe it was the Spirit defining His own particular distribution for each of us, ,

But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the
common good [of the Church], , But one and the same Spirit works all these
things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1Cor 12:7,11)

 

[PAC-fit]

I had a number of discussions with an old time Pentecostal pastor. He was really down to earth, having been a farmer before entering full time ministry (terrible pun, I know). He had less rigid view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit than others I met. He told me that many Baptists he prayed for had already been baptised in the Holy Spirit. They just did not realise what it meant. Baptists teach that you receive the Holy Spirit when you are born again. Since they don't know enough to argue, that's what they get.

Had the privilege's myself of 50yrs my elder and also actively a farmer. Too few discussions sadly. A street preacher as well. A curious trait if I may, how God chooses the less rigid to work the unseen altar.

I consider myself a born again believer. I don't subscribe to any denomination or "ism". I am inclined to believe that Charismatic Baptists have sound doctrine, ,"

Okay then, I guess that possibly answers my earlier question in post 7, first paragraph, , as Baptists can operate in an assortment of gifts for the ministry, but customarily do not ascribe to the separate, Baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation?

"The last shall be first......" I attend an Anglican church. I disagree with a number of Anglican doctrines.

Married in an Episcopal Church right before things started to cascade south in the 2000-tens. An eloquent Pastor who struggled for the "power" behind the pulpit, but as you say, ,

There are core doctrines that are essential. We are supposed to shun divisions and divisive people.

I personally spent far too long trying to back-peddle this monumental truth but it kept coming back around with fresh conviction every time to get it through my thick head which for the present, keeps me fixed to the liturgical stripe and think they are now on to me. Is the love mutual? For the present, very good.

Pleasantly surprised by much of what you say, and this last one, unity's priority the Lord prayed for will not be denied!!!

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Jesus statement that "He (just) did what He saw the Father doing" shows that He approached supernatural gifts in complete obedience not only for whom He prayed but HOW He did it. To one He said "go wash in the pool of Siloam" To another He said "Go show yourself to the Priest. It seems like every healing was a gift specially wrapped for each individual.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Don't ever believe a man over the Word of God. Early church fathers? They never wrote a single book of the Bible. Historical? Maybe.
But understand that many of the church fathers lived during the 3 -4th centuries, making them members of the RCC.
Are you gonna take the word of a catholic over the Bible?
Study The BOOK, not a denomination.

Every Christian who lived in the 3rd - 4th century did not belong to the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the RCC did not exist in anything like its present form for the first three centuries. This shows your abysmal ignorance of both of history and about the theological development of Christian doctrines. So, you see, it is not a matter of "taking the word of a catholic." BTW none of the "early church fathers claimed to be writing scripture nor do I think what they wrote was of equal authority to the scripture or the Apostles. Tell, me which denomination do you belong to?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

"The last shall be first......" I attend an Anglican church. I disagree with a number of Anglican doctrines. However, I have learned that having the right heart is way better than having all the mental ducks in a row. The Anglican pastor welcomes my wife and I as brethren. That's not the norm in our city. I can have decent discussions with the pastor. Most places we've been to the pastor is too aloof to talk to us. We do not go to the traditional meeting. There is one without the tradition that bugs me.

The pastor and I baptised a woman we know by full immersion recently. He also sprinkles babies. I do not agree with that, but I'm not going to let that hinder fellowship.

There is one church. Denominations are the consequence of religious pride as much as anything else. There are core doctrines that are essential. We are supposed to shun divisions and divisive people. 40,000 denominations say that the church has failed abysmally.

It seems to me the Anglican Church is getting off track going by what has been said by the current Archbishop of Canterbury Sarah Mullally. Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley are probably rolling in their graves.

 

[PAC-fit]

"So who is the silent scholar? He is the informed insider—perhaps a biblical theologian, pastor-scholar, or academic—who privately or quietly recognizes the above (the references, the history, the absence of any “cessation clause” in the New Testament). Yet he refuses to publicly “undermine the majority” (i.e., he will not weaponize his knowledge to attack or fracture the continuationist consensus where it exists, or to fuel division where cessationism dominates local circles). He stays largely silent in the shouting match.

What are the specific details that hold him down in “stouthearted resistance” to undermining that majority? They are not fear, careerism, or cowardice.

Scriptural sufficiency and clarity on secondary matters: The same New Testament that lists the gifts repeatedly commands unity (Eph 4:1–6; 1 Cor 1:10; Phil 2:1–4) and elevates love above all gifts (1 Cor 13). The silent scholar sees that the gifts themselves are never presented as a test of orthodoxy or a hill to die on. To turn the debate into a crusade would itself contradict the Spirit’s stated purpose for the gifts—edification, not division." Grok

If there is resistance I impose to the most self-serving at times gift - tongues, what harm is it if I do that quietly?

", , do not forbid speaking in tongues." (1Cor 14:39)​

"Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1Cor 1:10)​

What happens from my choice of silent opposition? My mind has just spoken to the Spirit, 1Cor 1:10 and 1Cor 14:39 'be dammed'!

 

[Gideon300]

It seems to me the Anglican Church is getting off track going by what has been said by the current Archbishop of Canterbury Sarah Mullally. Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley are probably rolling in their graves.

The Anglican church should be called Anglicant. ("Cant" is language repeated so often and so mechanically that it's essentially empty of meaning.) In the UK, they've been falling apart for decades. I was compelled to attend in the 60's when I was at boarding school. I vowed never to set foot in one again.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

When I lived in Israel I fell in with a group that turned out to be a cult. Since I did not know anyone there I sought the help of an elderly woman who had been a missionary to the Arabs with her husband for 45 years. Both had been trained originally by a ministry that had been started started by the British superstar of cricket C. T. Studd. who was known for giving up fame and fortune to become a missionary to primitive African tribes.

The elderly people I moved in with, the Stevensons, had also been a part of the movement started by Studd and they reflected his intense and total dedication to Christ. They told me that the language Studd used when describing his devotion to Christ often offended other Church groups. For instance, Studd once said he was like some British war hero who commented that he "gave not a d____" for anyone or anything, save only England." Studd then said he gave not a d____ for anyone or anything but only Christ. For this reason, Studd's missionaries often called themselves G.N.D.ers (which very much offended many Christians).

The Stevensons - were very much into prayer, not passive formulaic prayer but sustained intense intercession. Sometimes, Brother Stevenson would stop discussing things and say suddenly "I don't think we should talk very long but what we should pray" and we would all bury our faces in the furniture and being very "exercised in spirit" Brother Stevenson, would cry out "Oh mighty God, Oh mighty God...." I remember one time when he was asked to give thanks for a meal he began asking God for another Pentecost (he was not Pentecostal BTW). Then he changed direction and said "Oh we don't want another Pentecost. We just want you"

Everywhere Stevenson went things happened. His encounters with people at the bank or while carrying our errands would turn into evangelical missions. My point in all this is that the Spirit does not dwell in Church organizations or denominations but in the members of His body.