The "Secret Rapture" is a False Doctrine.

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ. It is not secret, Christ comes to take His saints to heaven, it comes before the 1000 years and the saints reign in heaven during that time, and then and only then does the New Jerusalem come down with Christ and the saints...

This was a great series of posts from you on the Lord's return! You're telling it the way Jesus said He will return.

@dkontner ,

But a lot of people won't believe it. Lord Jesus said only those God the Father sends to Him won't be lost and will be raised up on the last day.

So God's people are the only ones preparing for endurance until His return after the tribulation. Everyone else won't understand and won't think to prepare.


🕊

 

[Psalm1]

Quoted Scriptures are not assumptions.


These are all assumptions without quoted Scriptures. And there are Scriptures to quote that contradict them.

2Co 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The souls of the dead in Christ are now in the presence of the Lord in heaven. They are waiting for His return to judge the world, and will be bodily resurrected to meet Him in the air from the earth.

Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Only when coming down from heaven to the earth, does the Lord resurrect and receive His own people unto Himself in the air from the earth.

Your assumptions without quoted Scripture, of the resurrected saints being recieved with the Lord in heaven, before He comes down again to the earth, contradicts quoted Scripture, that the resurrected saints will meet Him in the air from the earth, where their dead bodies are first resurrected to rise and meet Him in the air...




Since quoted Scripture says the resurrected saints will meet Him in the air from the earth, then the armies following Him from heaven must be His angels:


The armies of angels in heaven come with Him to the earth His second time. Those legions of angels, that He did not call to earth the first time.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And so, Jesus says He comes again with His angels. And they will gather the resurrected elect from the four winds to meet Him in the air.

Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Jesus nothing of resurrected saints with angels in heaven, not knowing the hour of His return. Nor of any resurrected saints returning from heaven with Himself and His angels.

And so same conclusion by quotes Scripture:

The saints can't be coming to the earth from heaven with the Lord, since their dead bodies are still in the earth, and man are still living on the earth.

A couple more quoted Scriptures zbout angels in heaven with the Lord before His return, not any resurrected saints:

Mat 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus says nothing about resurrected saints with angels in heaven, beholding the face of the Father.

Mat 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

At Jesus' return from heaven, the resurrected saints from the earth, are only like the angels in heaven, that marry not. Not that they are in heaven with the angels.

QUOTE
Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Only when coming down from heaven to the earth, does the Lord resurrect and receive His own people unto Himself in the air from the earth.
Your assumptions without quoted Scripture, of the resurrected saints being recieved with the Lord in heaven, before He comes down again to the earth, contradicts quoted Scripture, that the resurrected saints will meet Him in the air from the earth, where their dead bodies are first resurrected to rise and meet Him in the air.."

if. you look at Rev, the martyrs are not allowed in the general population.
They are kept under the altar, UNTILL THEIR NUMBER IS FULFILLED.
During the trib, they are FOUND IN THE GENERAL POPULATION.
So their number is fulfilled.

But it gets worse for your assumptions because we are taken bodily to heaven.
This is seen in mat 25 where The gathered bride is taken into the marriage chamber.
Also in Rev 14, that Jewish gathering goes bodily to heaven.

So too many obstacles to just assume what scripture denies.

 

[Psalm1]

This was a great series of posts from you on the Lord's return! You're telling it the way Jesus said He will return.

@dkontner ,

But a lot of people won't believe it. Lord Jesus said only those God the Father sends to Him won't be lost and will be raised up on the last day.

So God's people are the only ones preparing for endurance until His return after the tribulation. Everyone else won't understand and won't think to prepare.


🕊

Amen
Those posts were a great opportunity to showcase postrib omissions and assumptions.
I also appreciated the opportunity.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Amen
Those posts were a great opportunity to showcase postrib omissions and assumptions.
I also appreciated the opportunity.

Meh. All you're doing is wasting time just talking and twisting scripture. And you won't be able to say no to the antichrist, because you didn't prepare.

Me and the rest of God's people are building up our faith to endure to the end like Jesus said we should. And we'll be able to resist the antichrist whether we die or survive.

It will happen soon in the 2030s.


🕊

 

[Reddogs]

Huh?
A gathering in heaven before the second coming?

That supports a pretrib rapture.

But you guys have such a knack for omission.

You actually OMITTED the rapture
Lol
Here is the rapture PRETRIB/ FLOOD that every single postribber leaves out.

Here is your omission;
Mat 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

You really think cherry picking for doctrine sake is not dangerous?

Not sure how you got that, the saints are taken to heaven, that is a core belief.

 

[Reddogs]

Oh yes!
Great verses.
The second coming is dramatic indeed.
And as Jesus taught , that coming is with the previously raptured saints.

How do you get the Second Coming mixed up with the restoration when all the saints come down out of heaven with Christ and the New Jerusalem after the 1000 years. Here is a good study with the events...

Events to Take Place At Second Coming

1. The Righteous Dead are Raised

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. I Thessalonians 4:16

Only the righteous who are "in Christ" are resurrected at the second coming. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the millennium (See The Long Awaited Millennium).

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4,5

The righteous are raised - the unrighteous are not raised until the thousand years are finished.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection... Revelation 20:6

In John 5:28,29, Christ tells us that all shall hear His voice. He talks of two resurrections - "the resurrection of life", and "the resurrection of damnation". These two events are separated by a thousand years.


2. The Righteous Living will be Translated

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. I Thessalonians 4:17

The living righteous ("we which are alive") will be gathered together with the resurrected righteous to meet the Lord in the air. The righteous living will not taste death, but will be translated as were Enoch and Elijah. (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54 NKJV

The living righteous are changed in moments at the last trumpet. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His glorious body.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body... Philippians 3:20, 21 NKJV

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him . . and every man that hath this hope in Him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure. 1 John 3:2,3 NKJV

He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth; for the Lord has spoken it. And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' Isaiah 25:8,9

 

[Reddogs]

3. The Wicked are Slain at the Second Coming and await the Second Resurrection of Damnation.

The cry of the wicked who have rejected God :

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?' Revelation 6:15-17 NKJV

The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Psalm 110:5,6

There is no peace of nations or joy expressed here at the second coming of the Christ. Those who have slighted the mercy of Christ and sought to destroy his saints will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. Neither is the Lord a respecter of position. The heads of nations will give an account for their actions. Then the wicked one, the man of sin, will be revealed for what he is.

And then shall the wicked be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV

These people will be destroyed and their bodies will be strewn over the earth.

And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth, even unto the other end of the earth; they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Jeremiah 25:33

They cannot be gathered, lamented or buried because no living being will remain on earth.

I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form and void; and the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, and all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord, by His fierce anger. For thus says the Lord: 'The whole land shall be desolate; yet I will not make a full end.' For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black, because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not relent, nor will I turn back from it. Jeremiah 4:23-28 NKJV

'I will utterly consume everything from the face of the land,' says the Lord; 'I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, the fish of the sea, and the stumbling blocks along with the wicked. I will cut off man from the face of the land,' says the Lord. Zephaniah 1:1-3 NKJV

So the events are pretty clear that the doctrine of the secret rapture which proposes that the people of God will be secretly taken to heaven while the unconverted remain on the earth to receive what is false and is tantamount to a second chance. The second chance doctrine is a doctrine of false hope which does not encourage people to change their lives and make right with God, but to continue in sin and iniquity. But God tells us to repent and His mercy and grace will allow pardon.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. Isaiah 55:7

But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statues, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 'Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?' says the Lord, 'and not that he should turn from his ways and live?' Ezekiel 18:21-23 NKJV

Again there is an "if" in these verses. Salvation is conditional to obedience. We will be held accountable for our deeds.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

 

[Reddogs]

Scripture reveals the events leading up to the Second Coming and as you see the great wrath of God will come upon the earth in the seven last plagues. When the sixth plague is poured out, the way is prepared for the battle of Armageddon. Then a mighty earthquake will shake the whole earth at the beginning of the seventh plague. The graves are opened, and 'many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth . . . awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.'

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2.

So those saints which are asleep in the grave will awake to everlasting life as Christ resurrects them and takes them to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

At the coming of Christ, the righteous dead will be resurrected and then be given the gift of eternal life and be made immortal and the righteous living will be changed from mortal to immortal:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:52-54

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Philippians 3:21-22

The saints are changed 'in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.' At the voice of God they were glorified; now they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air. They meet the Lord in the air and taken to heaven where they will stand before the throne of God.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:17


36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:. 1 Corinthians 15:35-43

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

The saints are raised up at the Second Coming and reign in heaven during the 1000 years, then after the 1000 years comes the Second Resurrection of shame and everlasting contempt as the wicked are raised to face the Great White Throne judgment as Christ comes down in the New Jerusalem.

 

[ATG]

Rev 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2;For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
(the saints in heaven before the 2nd coming)

Jesus cannot avenge the blood of the saints, before coming to earth to avenge the blood of the saints.

The people in heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ, that prayed for in Rev 6, and now praise Him to avenge their blood on earth. They cannot come with Him from heaven, since they are bodily resurrected on earth to meet Him in the air.

And of course, the saints remaining alive on earth for Him to come from heaven, also cannot come with from heaven.

Rev 19
6;And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7;Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8;And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
( the saints in heaven before the 2nd coming)

Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The angels are speaking of His wife made ready, not the wife speaking of herself.

And of course, the ready bride herself on earth, answers the Bridegroom's trumpet shout and call to meet Him in the air:

Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev19
9;And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
(Marriage Supper in heaven as Jesus prophesied at the last supper.)

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saints first bodily resurrect from the earth, and then rise to meet the Bridegroom in the air.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The new song of Moses and the Lamb is sung by the bride at their marriage supper on the firmament of earth.

Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Jesus says it will be when the kingdom of God shall come, when He comes again from heaven. Jesus does not say He will drink the fruit of the vine again in heaven.

Rev 19
14;And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[As I said, the saints in heaven ALREADY ON HORSES, RETURN TO EARTH with Jesus AT THE SECOND COMING.
( NO invented , assumed rapture there at tge secong coming on white horses....zero)]

As I quoted Scriptures already: It's the angels following the Lord out of heaven to earth, who shall gather the resurrected saints from the 4 winds of the earth, to meet Him where He is in the air. When He keeps His promise to come again and receive them unto Himself.

Your assumptions are of what's not written. My readings are what's written.

The first rule of rightly dividing the words of truth, is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not. Good teachers only teach the words as written. False teachers teach words of their own not written.

 

[ATG]

So lets look to see what Christ and His Word says. We see Christ laying down what will happen and the signs and events to watch for.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We see it repeated also in Mark.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It's just a simple fact, that some people become so attached to their own ideologies, that they must rewrite the Scriptures of God to keep them.

The self-delusion becomes so strong, that they no longer will comprehend simple language in Scripture of God, that any honest child can understand.

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

And so, they can become some of the most convincing false teachers and prophets, because they have first most convinced themselves of their own lies. And yet, as you show, a simple reading of grammar alone, exposes their deceit.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The real question is why not just believe the simple words of Scripture as written? In this case, I believe it has something to do with another lie, that all saved believers are now already 'secretly' seated forever in heaven, and so cannot be judged by their works on earth.

Therefore, they must also be resurrected in heaven and return with the Lord to earth: So as not to remaining on the earth doing works, that can be judged good or evil at His coming.

Mat 13:29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hence, there must also be a 'secret' resurrection in heaven, and following of Christ from heaven, if the believers on earth are already secretly seated forever in heaven...

 

[Psalm1]

Jesus cannot avenge the blood of the saints, before coming to earth to avenge the blood of the saints.

The people in heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ, that prayed for in Rev 6, and now praise Him to avenge their blood on earth. They cannot come with Him from heaven, since they are bodily resurrected on earth to meet Him in the air.

And of course, the saints remaining alive on earth for Him to come from heaven, also cannot come with from heaven.




Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The angels are speaking of His wife made ready, not the wife speaking of herself.

And of course, the ready bride herself on earth, answers the Bridegroom's trumpet shout and call to meet Him in the air:

Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saints first bodily resurrect from the earth, and then rise to meet the Bridegroom in the air.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The new song of Moses and the Lamb is sung by the bride at their marriage supper on the firmament of earth.

Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Jesus says it will be when the kingdom of God shall come, when He comes again from heaven. Jesus does not say He will drink the fruit of the vine again in heaven.


As I quoted Scriptures already: It's the angels following the Lord out of heaven to earth, who shall gather the resurrected saints from the 4 winds of the earth, to meet Him where He is in the air. When He keeps His promise to come again and receive them unto Himself.

Your assumptions are of what's not written. My readings are what's written.

The first rule of rightly dividing the words of truth, is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not. Good teachers only teach the words as written. False teachers teach words of their own not written.

QUOTE
"Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride."

Nope.
The virgin parable says the bride goes back to heaven with the groom.
The wedding in heaven.
At the last supper Jesus prophesied he Would drink of the vine with us in heaven.
In Rev 19 the bride has become the wife.

That is 3 omissions by you.

 

[Psalm1]

Jesus cannot avenge the blood of the saints, before coming to earth to avenge the blood of the saints.

The people in heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ, that prayed for in Rev 6, and now praise Him to avenge their blood on earth. They cannot come with Him from heaven, since they are bodily resurrected on earth to meet Him in the air.

And of course, the saints remaining alive on earth for Him to come from heaven, also cannot come with from heaven.




Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The angels are speaking of His wife made ready, not the wife speaking of herself.

And of course, the ready bride herself on earth, answers the Bridegroom's trumpet shout and call to meet Him in the air:

Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saints first bodily resurrect from the earth, and then rise to meet the Bridegroom in the air.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The new song of Moses and the Lamb is sung by the bride at their marriage supper on the firmament of earth.

Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Jesus says it will be when the kingdom of God shall come, when He comes again from heaven. Jesus does not say He will drink the fruit of the vine again in heaven.


As I quoted Scriptures already: It's the angels following the Lord out of heaven to earth, who shall gather the resurrected saints from the 4 winds of the earth, to meet Him where He is in the air. When He keeps His promise to come again and receive them unto Himself.

Your assumptions are of what's not written. My readings are what's written.

The first rule of rightly dividing the words of truth, is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not. Good teachers only teach the words as written. False teachers teach words of their own not written.

QUOTE
"As I quoted Scriptures already: It's the angels following the Lord out of heaven to earth, who shall gather the resurrected saints from the 4 winds of the earth, to meet Him where He is in the air. When He keeps His promise to come again and receive them unto Himself."

Read it again slowly, keeping in mind it is forbidden to change Revelation.

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(PEOPLE IN HEAVEN)

7;Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Bride is now the wife in heaven (marriage is complete in heaven)

8;And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
(The wife in heaven arrayed in white robes.)

14;And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Saints in heaven ...AGAIN CLOTHED IN WHITE ROBES.

I can not fathom why you would change Revelation.

Oh yes I do know why.
It , if it is true, and it is, destroys your deal completely.
That is desperation, changing Revelation.

Btw...those gathered in Matt 24 " after the trib" ,is JESUS SENDING ANGELS to GATHER PEOPLE .
IT PLAINLY SAYS ANGELS GATHER.
( also DECLARED in mark)

In earth's history, I know of noplace where someone sends another party to gather someone, but it gets translated that the one sending goes himself.
( except where someone is offended by Gods word, and repels facts to make truth into deception)

The bible rules!!!!!

 

[Psalm1]

It's just a simple fact, that some people become so attached to their own ideologies, that they must rewrite the Scriptures of God to keep them.

The self-delusion becomes so strong, that they no longer will comprehend simple language in Scripture of God, that any honest child can understand.

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

And so, they can become some of the most convincing false teachers and prophets, because they have first most convinced themselves of their own lies. And yet, as you show, a simple reading of grammar alone, exposes their deceit.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The real question is why not just believe the simple words of Scripture as written? In this case, I believe it has something to do with another lie, that all saved believers are now already 'secretly' seated forever in heaven, and so cannot be judged by their works on earth.

Therefore, they must also be resurrected in heaven and return with the Lord to earth: So as not to remaining on the earth doing works, that can be judged good or evil at His coming.

Mat 13:29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hence, there must also be a 'secret' resurrection in heaven, and following of Christ from heaven, if the believers on earth are already secretly seated forever in heaven...

So both of you can not read????
Jesus sends angels is false ????

Delusion???

Attachment to men????

What is driving your obsession with changing God's word??????

 

[Psalm1]

Jesus cannot avenge the blood of the saints, before coming to earth to avenge the blood of the saints.

The people in heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ, that prayed for in Rev 6, and now praise Him to avenge their blood on earth. They cannot come with Him from heaven, since they are bodily resurrected on earth to meet Him in the air.

And of course, the saints remaining alive on earth for Him to come from heaven, also cannot come with from heaven.




Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The angels are speaking of His wife made ready, not the wife speaking of herself.

And of course, the ready bride herself on earth, answers the Bridegroom's trumpet shout and call to meet Him in the air:

Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saints first bodily resurrect from the earth, and then rise to meet the Bridegroom in the air.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The new song of Moses and the Lamb is sung by the bride at their marriage supper on the firmament of earth.

Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Jesus says it will be when the kingdom of God shall come, when He comes again from heaven. Jesus does not say He will drink the fruit of the vine again in heaven.


As I quoted Scriptures already: It's the angels following the Lord out of heaven to earth, who shall gather the resurrected saints from the 4 winds of the earth, to meet Him where He is in the air. When He keeps His promise to come again and receive them unto Himself.

Your assumptions are of what's not written. My readings are what's written.

The first rule of rightly dividing the words of truth, is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not. Good teachers only teach the words as written. False teachers teach words of their own not written.

QUOTE
"Your assumptions are of what's not written. My readings are what's written"

...and yet, over and over, I am exposing your changing of God's word.

So easy.

 

[Psalm1]

Jesus cannot avenge the blood of the saints, before coming to earth to avenge the blood of the saints.

The people in heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ, that prayed for in Rev 6, and now praise Him to avenge their blood on earth. They cannot come with Him from heaven, since they are bodily resurrected on earth to meet Him in the air.

And of course, the saints remaining alive on earth for Him to come from heaven, also cannot come with from heaven.




Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The angels are speaking of His wife made ready, not the wife speaking of herself.

And of course, the ready bride herself on earth, answers the Bridegroom's trumpet shout and call to meet Him in the air:

Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1 Th 4:15
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saints first bodily resurrect from the earth, and then rise to meet the Bridegroom in the air.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The new song of Moses and the Lamb is sung by the bride at their marriage supper on the firmament of earth.

Luk 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Jesus says it will be when the kingdom of God shall come, when He comes again from heaven. Jesus does not say He will drink the fruit of the vine again in heaven.


As I quoted Scriptures already: It's the angels following the Lord out of heaven to earth, who shall gather the resurrected saints from the 4 winds of the earth, to meet Him where He is in the air. When He keeps His promise to come again and receive them unto Himself.

Your assumptions are of what's not written. My readings are what's written.

The first rule of rightly dividing the words of truth, is to rightly divide between what is written, and what is not. Good teachers only teach the words as written. False teachers teach words of their own not written.

QUOTE
"Scripture does not call these voices of people. The angels in heaven are rejoicing for the marriage supper of the Lamb to come, because they are the rejoicing friends of the Bridegroom, not the bride."

SMH IN DISBELIEF.
Rev 19
1 I heard a great voice of much PEOPLE IN HEAVEN, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:....

You..." Oh no The bible is mistaken "
"Those are actually ANGELS, the bible is totally wrong"

Disgusting what that postrib rapture doctrine does to people.

 

[Psalm1]

How do you get the Second Coming mixed up with the restoration when all the saints come down out of heaven with Christ and the New Jerusalem after the 1000 years. Here is a good study with the events...

Events to Take Place At Second Coming

1. The Righteous Dead are Raised

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. I Thessalonians 4:16

Only the righteous who are "in Christ" are resurrected at the second coming. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the millennium (See The Long Awaited Millennium).

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4,5

The righteous are raised - the unrighteous are not raised until the thousand years are finished.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection... Revelation 20:6

In John 5:28,29, Christ tells us that all shall hear His voice. He talks of two resurrections - "the resurrection of life", and "the resurrection of damnation". These two events are separated by a thousand years.


2. The Righteous Living will be Translated

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. I Thessalonians 4:17

The living righteous ("we which are alive") will be gathered together with the resurrected righteous to meet the Lord in the air. The righteous living will not taste death, but will be translated as were Enoch and Elijah. (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54 NKJV

The living righteous are changed in moments at the last trumpet. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His glorious body.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body... Philippians 3:20, 21 NKJV

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him . . and every man that hath this hope in Him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure. 1 John 3:2,3 NKJV

He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth; for the Lord has spoken it. And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' Isaiah 25:8,9

If you omit the firstfruits of the first resurrection, then the ENTIRE deal can be spun to a certain liking,as you are doing.

 

[Psalm1]

How do you get the Second Coming mixed up with the restoration when all the saints come down out of heaven with Christ and the New Jerusalem after the 1000 years. Here is a good study with the events...

Events to Take Place At Second Coming

1. The Righteous Dead are Raised

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. I Thessalonians 4:16

Only the righteous who are "in Christ" are resurrected at the second coming. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the millennium (See The Long Awaited Millennium).

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4,5

The righteous are raised - the unrighteous are not raised until the thousand years are finished.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection... Revelation 20:6

In John 5:28,29, Christ tells us that all shall hear His voice. He talks of two resurrections - "the resurrection of life", and "the resurrection of damnation". These two events are separated by a thousand years.


2. The Righteous Living will be Translated

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. I Thessalonians 4:17

The living righteous ("we which are alive") will be gathered together with the resurrected righteous to meet the Lord in the air. The righteous living will not taste death, but will be translated as were Enoch and Elijah. (Genesis 5:24; 2 Kings 2:11)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54 NKJV

The living righteous are changed in moments at the last trumpet. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His glorious body.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body... Philippians 3:20, 21 NKJV

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him . . and every man that hath this hope in Him, purifieth himself, even as He is pure. 1 John 3:2,3 NKJV

He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth; for the Lord has spoken it. And it shall be said in that day: 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' Isaiah 25:8,9

Rev 20
4;And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is FROM FIRSTFRUITS FORWARD.
Like I told you, omitting FIRSTFRUITS leads to error.

Now, what some erroneously CHANGE, is the timing of the "first resurrection "
That error is actually and unbelievably a building block!!!
A bizarre one!!!!

They claim those MARTYRS of rev 20 are the first resurrection.( a first resurrection way after Jesus has returned)
These same adherents claim, the "dead in Christ first resurrection" ,of 1 thes 4, is at the second coming on horses.
( dead in Christ of 1 thes 4, RAISED FIRST)

So, it sails over their heads, that they now have 2 MISPLACED FIRST RESURRECTIONS.
BOTH TOTALLY OUTTA WHACK.

The bible rules!!!!!!

(A doctrine that leaves out firstfruits 100% of the time)

Sit under those postribber teachers.
NONE OF THEM INCLUDE FIRST FRUITS OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

 

[lrs68]

The resurrected first fruits were gathered at the Second Coming of Yeshua.

 

[Omegatime]

Question---Is the Lord dealing with sin in the Tribulation??

 

[Psalm1]

The resurrected first fruits were gathered at the Second Coming of Yeshua.

Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.
The church is not in any way firstfruits concerning the resurrection.