Missing piece in Genesis 5

[Omegatime]

Sorry again for going off topic. It won't happen again.

Consider this verse, "So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom." Ps 90:12

The answer is given within the first six chapters on the number of man's days upon this earth in the flesh. If the gospel is hid it is hid to them that are lost.

Adam was born on January 5, 4004 B.C. and entered the Kingdom on June 30, 3927 BC, at the age of 77 years, 5 months, and 25 days where he lived out the remainder of his days.

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Ps 90:10

He died at the age of 930.

Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Ps 90:4

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I rather believe in what the disciple of Apostle John wrote:

2. Thus, then, in the day that they ate, in the same did they die, and became death's debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day. Now in this same day that they ate, in that also did they die.

But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God.

Now he died on the same day in which he ate. For God said, In that day on which you shall eat of it, you shall die by death. The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since a day of the Lord is as a thousand years, 2 Peter 3:8 he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin.

Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed the pure supper, that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true.

For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him. John 8:44

 

[PaulThomson]

Let's see, your children exist within created time, you exist in created time, no contradiction. Now God exists BEFORE created time. Do you really think that being in the same time frame is comparable to being in totally different time frames? God existed before the universe and its associated time came to be, how can He possibly be in the same time frame as the creation. Your children were BORN into the universe's time frame, just as you live within it. God CREATED the universe's time frame, He cannot be in it.

Why must time be created? What if time, space and energy are all ever-existing attributes of God? And energy becomes light and matter….right? Does God say that He is from everlasting to everlasting? Is God’s everlasting existence looking backwards not the same kind of time as His everlasting existence forwards, and different from the time in which I have everlasting existence forwards?

Psa 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 103:17
But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Psa 106:48
Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

Maybe God created light and matter within His time frame, as I generated my children within mine.

 

[rewriter]

Why must time be created? What if time, space and energy are all ever-existing attributes of God? And energy becomes light and matter….right? Does God say that He is from everlasting to everlasting? Is God’s everlasting existence looking backwards not the same kind of time as His everlasting existence forwards, and different from the time in which I have everlasting existence forwards?

Psa 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 103:17
But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Psa 106:48
Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

Maybe God created light and matter within His time frame, as I generated my children within mine.

Our universe is created. Whether or not mater/energy. space and time and time are co-existent with God, our specific universe is not. Our universe has a beginning and our universe's time began with it.

A computer game runs with a variant of our time, but when the game is turned off, its time ceases until begun again. Our time does not turn off with the computer game turned off. God's time will progress totally independent of our time.

 

[PaulThomson]

Our universe is created. Whether or not mater/energy. space and time and time are co-existent with God, our specific universe is not. Our universe has a beginning and our universe's time began with it.

A computer game runs with a variant of our time, but when the game is turned off, its time ceases until begun again. Our time does not turn off with the computer game turned off. God's time will progress totally independent of our time.

We are not a computer simulation that God is dipping into in his down-time. Besides, every time you go back to your computer simulation, the game is happening in your time frame. There are no conscious characters in the sim that believe their actual time is the one the computer simulation is telling you it is. Why cannot God himself be time, space and energy.
In Him we live and move and have our being - He is the space in which our universe happens.
He must be energy to be able to cause things to move.
He was planning this world before bringing it into existence, Deliberation involves sequential thoughts, and therefore one thought is before another, and one thought is after another, which happens over time.

Why do you think God being space, time and energy is untenable?

 

[UnoiAmarah]

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I rather believe in what the disciple of Apostle John wrote:

2. Thus, then, in the day that they ate, in the same did they die, and became death's debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day. Now in this same day that they ate, in that also did they die.

So they died for eating from the fig tree?

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:7

Now he died on the same day in which he ate. For God said, In that day on which you shall eat of it, you shall die by death.

And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gen 2:9

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Gen 2:16

Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? James 3:11

...that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. Deut 8:3

And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since a day of the Lord is as a thousand years, 2 Peter 3:8 he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So a thousand years with the Lord is a thousands years and a day with the Lord is a day.

For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him. John 8:44

Are you referring unto the one who told the woman that if she believed in him she shall never die?

 

[rewriter]

We are not a computer simulation that God is dipping into in his down-time. Besides, every time you go back to your computer simulation, the game is happening in your time frame. There are no conscious characters in the sim that believe their actual time is the one the computer simulation is telling you it is. Why cannot God himself be time, space and energy.
In Him we live and move and have our being - He is the space in which our universe happens.
He must be energy to be able to cause things to move.
He was planning this world before bringing it into existence, Deliberation involves sequential thoughts, and therefore one thought is before another, and one thought is after another, which happens over time.

Why do you think God being space, time and energy is untenable?

God is not space/time and energy because God is conscious. Space, time and energy are not. Consciousness is something totally separate, likely understandable only in terms of itself.

 

[PaulThomson]

God is not space/time and energy because God is conscious. Space, time and energy are not. Consciousness is something totally separate, likely understandable only in terms of itself.

You are space, time and energy/matter, and you are conscious. How does God being conscious in any way imply that God Himself cannot include space, time… and energy capable of becoming matter.

 

[rewriter]

You are space, time and energy/matter, and you are conscious. How does God being conscious in any way imply that God Himself cannot include space, time… and energy capable of becoming matter.

There is also solid evidence that consciousness is independent of energy, space and time. There is ZERO evidence that consciousness arises from any combination of energy, space and time.

 

[PaulThomson]

There is also solid evidence that consciousness is independent of energy, space and time. There is ZERO evidence that consciousness arises from any combination of energy, space and time.

So, which consciousness are you pointing to that there is solid evidence it exists without space, time and energy? I did not suggest that God’s space, time and energy produced God’s consciousness. I would propose that God has always existed as consciousness, space, time and energy… and love and truth and wisdom etc.

 

[rewriter]

So, which consciousness are you pointing to that there is solid evidence it exists without space, time and energy? I did not suggest that God’s space, time and energy produced God’s consciousness. I would propose that God has always existed as consciousness, space, time and energy… and love and truth and wisdom etc.

To date, all that science can tell us is that within energy, time and space there emerges an experience called "consciousness" that has absolutely no links to any other the others. Electrical signals (energy) transform into qualia, something unrelated to energy, that exist across space and time and that these qualia, on occasion, transcend space and time.

That is a person at a specific point in energy, space and time can somehow instantly know things at a different point in energy, space and time with absolutely no detectable method being used and no other person in their immediate proximity having access to the information via any known means. Such experiences are well documented and inexplicable unless consciousness is an independent aspect of reality.

 

[PaulThomson]

To date, all that science can tell us is that within energy, time and space there emerges an experience called "consciousness" that has absolutely no links to any other the others. Electrical signals (energy) transform into qualia, something unrelated to energy, that exist across space and time and that these qualia, on occasion, transcend space and time.

That is a person at a specific point in energy, space and time can somehow instantly know things at a different point in energy, space and time with absolutely no detectable method being used and no other person in their immediate proximity having access to the information via any known means. Such experiences are well documented and inexplicable unless consciousness is an independent aspect of reality.

But these people take up space, have mass, and are temporal. How can you claim that their consciousness does not need to coexist with a body that is experiencing space, energy or mass, and time? You have not given me any persuasive evidence that consiousness exists without space/energy or mass and time.

 

[rewriter]

Was Jesus resurrected? Did Jesus deal with demons? Did Saul encounter Samuel at Endor? Are all these reported events linked to space, energy, mass or time or did they occur within space and time?

Energy and matter are one and the same, but mass is just a subset of this, determined by specific subatomic particles.

But matter/energy, space and time are all definable only in terms of themselves and exist independently of each other. From whence would you suggest that consciousness comes from? And keep your answer consistent with Jesus's encounter with the man possessed by "legion" because there were so many demons that Jesus cast into swine. What went from the man to the swine, and how if it was linked to space, time or matter/energy?

 

[PaulThomson]

Was Jesus resurrected? Did Jesus deal with demons? Did Saul encounter Samuel at Endor? Are all these reported events linked to space, energy, mass or time or did they occur within space and time?

Energy and matter are one and the same, but mass is just a subset of this, determined by specific subatomic particles.

But matter/energy, space and time are all definable only in terms of themselves and exist independently of each other. From whence would you suggest that consciousness comes from? And keep your answer consistent with Jesus's encounter with the man possessed by "legion" because there were so many demons that Jesus cast into swine. What went from the man to the swine, and how if it was linked to space, time or matter/energy?

Yes, Jesus was resurrected. Yes Jesus dealt with demons. No, Saul did not encounter Samuel; the witch of Endor claimed she saw Samuel. Yes, these events all occurred in space, time, and energy.

Clearly, for some entity to be in another, it must have position. Clearly, for one entity to manipulate another, it must have agency/power/energy. And clearly, for an entity to be inside another at one time, before exorcism, and outside of it later, after exorcism, it must be temporal. And for a demon to respond to Jesus in coherent and relevant language it must be conscious.

God’s consciousness has always existed. His consciousness came from nowhere. God can generate light from His energy, and He makes (‘aShaH, to do or make in the widest sense) other bodies by squeezing light (YaTsaR”, to form by pressing), and by cutting light (BaRa”, to form by cutting) into some form, and He creates centres of consciousness that identify with and have agency over each if those bodies which have position in space and time and have a form.

How big in spatial dimensions do you think an entity needs to be to have influence over another entity? Bacteria and viruses are small but can affect elephants.

 

[rewriter]

Yes, Jesus was resurrected. Yes Jesus dealt with demons. No, Saul did not encounter Samuel; the witch of Endor claimed she saw Samuel. Yes, these events all occurred in space, time, and energy.

Clearly, for some entity to be in another, it must have position. Clearly, for one entity to manipulate another, it must have agency/power/energy. And clearly, for an entity to be inside another at one time, before exorcism, and outside of it later, after exorcism, it must be temporal. And for a demon to respond to Jesus in coherent and relevant language it must be conscious.

God’s consciousness has always existed. His consciousness came from nowhere. God can generate light from His energy, and He makes (‘aShaH, to do or make in the widest sense) other bodies by squeezing light (YaTsaR”, to form by pressing), and by cutting light (BaRa”, to form by cutting) into some form, and He creates centres of consciousness that identify with and have agency over each if those bodies which have position in space and time and have a form.

How big in spatial dimensions do you think an entity needs to be to have influence over another entity? Bacteria and viruses are small but can affect elephants.

How big in spatial terms does an entity need to be to influence over another? You tell me because I maintain that an entity can be pure consciousness and not have any spatial aspects.

 

[PaulThomson]

How big in spatial terms does an entity need to be to influence over another? You tell me because I maintain that an entity can be pure consciousness and not have any spatial aspects.

You can “maintain” all you like, but you are "maintaining" a mere theory for which you have so far provided zero evidence. Where is your evidence for a spaceless conscious entity? Even God is not spaceless. He fills the infinite space into which He placed the universe..

Psa 139:7
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Act 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poetshave said, For we are also his offspring.

 

[rewriter]

How does God fill the universe? Where is a piece of God in a vacuum? Now if consciousness is immaterial, not subject to our 3-dimensional space, there is no problem, but you seem to only be able to think in terms of the material.

I can use your cited verses as well as you can, perhaps better as your understanding is bound by matter/energy, space and time and you have never investigated the mountains of evidence that consciousness is not.

Start with "Phantasms of the Living", both volumes, then you can try "The Future and Beyond", I cannot think of Saltmarsh's second volume, but you can start with "Cross-Correspondence". Once you get a foundation then we can talk about referring you to more recent material.

Or you could investigate quantum physics where the arrow of time goes both ways and consciousness decides what the answer to certain materialistic binary questions is, involving up to a collection of a few thousand atoms possibly being in two places at once.

 

[PaulThomson]

How does God fill the universe? Where is a piece of God in a vacuum? Now if consciousness is immaterial, not subject to our 3-dimensional space, there is no problem, but you seem to only be able to think in terms of the material.

I can use your cited verses as well as you can, perhaps better as your understanding is bound by matter/energy, space and time and you have never investigated the mountains of evidence that consciousness is not.

Start with "Phantasms of the Living", both volumes, then you can try "The Future and Beyond", I cannot think of Saltmarsh's second volume, but you can start with "Cross-Correspondence". Once you get a foundation then we can talk about referring you to more recent material.

Or you could investigate quantum physics where the arrow of time goes both ways and consciousness decides what the answer to certain materialistic binary questions is, involving up to a collection of a few thousand atoms possibly being in two places at once.

God is Spirit. His Spirit filled the vacuum of space before our universe was in it. He fills the universe in the space between atomic and subatomic particles and is immanent within those particles, because those particles were place within the infinite space that existed before they came into being. Someone being immaterial does not imply that that person cannot occupy three dimensional space.

You are relying a lot on human speculative “knowledge” so-called.

If demons were spaceless consciousnesses, it seems that they would be omnipresent like God, and have access to the entire universe. How could satan be cast out of heaven is He is not somewhere in space and time.

1Co 1:19
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world toconfound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing wordsof man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.]
1Co 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I do not need to study abstruse esoteric human “knowledge so-called” to understand what God says in His word.

If satan were a spaceless dimensionless consciousness, how could God cast Him out of heaven and down to earth?

 

[rewriter]

God is Spirit. His Spirit filled the vacuum of space before our universe was in it. He fills the universe in the space between atomic and subatomic particles and is immanent within those particles, because those particles were place within the infinite space that existed before they came into being. Someone being immaterial does not imply that that person cannot occupy three dimensional space.

You are relying a lot on human speculative “knowledge” so-called.

If demons were spaceless consciousnesses, it seems that they would be omnipresent like God, and have access to the entire universe. How could satan be cast out of heaven is He is not somewhere in space and time.

1Co 1:19
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world toconfound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing wordsof man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.]
1Co 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I do not need to study abstruse esoteric human “knowledge so-called” to understand what God says in His word.

If satan were a spaceless dimensionless consciousness, how could God cast Him out of heaven and down to earth?

Well, all you have done is to add in a new, and undefined term by adding "spirit". What is "spirit" and is it clearly limited only to God, or can other entities also be a form of "spirit", such as "angels" who are sometimes perceived as God?

Extensive quoting does nothing if you do not explain why your quotes are relevant. I can supply a lot of quotes that I find defending my position but explaining how they defend what I am saying would take more words and I choose not to engage in that because without explanation, the ignorant would simply dismiss them because they do not understand and I do not feel I can fully explain in a single or even two or three posts here.

 

[PaulThomson]

Well, all you have done is to add in a new, and undefined term by adding "spirit". What is "spirit" and is it clearly limited only to God, or can other entities also be a form of "spirit", such as "angels" who are sometimes perceived as God?

Extensive quoting does nothing if you do not explain why your quotes are relevant. I can supply a lot of quotes that I find defending my position but explaining how they defend what I am saying would take more words and I choose not to engage in that because without explanation, the ignorant would simply dismiss them because they do not understand and I do not feel I can fully explain in a single or even two or three posts here.

You ask what is spirit, and claim it is clearly limited only to God. And yet The Holy Spirit says that each man has his own spirit.

1Co 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

My point with those 1 Corinthians scriptures was that humanly garnered knowledge, such as that proposed by men regarding quantum physics, if it is not confirmed by scripture, is not going to lead to understanding of spiritual things. You seem to be relying very heavily on human speculation even when it conflicts with scripture. The texts I cited dismiss that methodology as vain.

 

[rewriter]

To base all knowledge about some things on one's interpretation of scripture means just that, the opinion of one individual. I seek to base knowledge on as much evidence as possible. A single person's opinion might well be what is referred to as a "logical possibility", one that has no internal contradiction. Basing one's opinion on observable, testable data yields what is called a "realistic possibility", that is there at least some sound evidence to support it.

If you want examples of the difference, an example of a logical possibility would be "God created the world 5 minutes ago, complete with everything to indicate great age, from fossils, paperwork and even personal memories". You cannot disprove it as any proof you bring forward is covered by the claim that everything necessary for proof of age. A "realistic possibility" is that the universe is somewhere around 13-14 billion "earth years" old with the earth's age around 4-5 billion years. There is discovered evidence supporting this, it might be found to be incorrect in the future, but at present it seems correct.

That God inspired scripture and scripture is accurate is a logical possibility, it cannot be proven or disproven.