Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations
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The elders …I’d probably say the twelve heads of the tribes who he made the first covenant with and the twelve apostles he made and then sent forth the new covenant with . 12 in the ot 12 in the nt . Just my opinion however
You're asking for evidence that another apostle - other than John the beloved, closest to the Messiah - plainly taught about the 1000-yr reign because you don't accept the plain statement that John himself taught, rather choosing to reinterpret his Revelation passage, while accusing me of reinterpreting Paul's passage when he also plainly mentions a reign. Don't you see how that's a bit inconsistent?
There wasn't a reinterpretation. I literally repeated what Paul said, because - as I knew would happen - we often only see what we want to see in the text when steeped in doctrine.
I'll give it again...once again in large text and in color.
1 Corinthians 15:20-26
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn:
23 Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed/put down all dominion/rule, authority, and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
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leaving enough space to show there hasn't been any tampering...
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^ Paul taught that there is a reign. But when does this reign happen?
Do you suggest it happens before the Messiah is on earth? So in heaven? He's now reigning over enemies on earth from heaven (even though Paul explains in Romans 8:20 that the Almighty left the world to its futility until the manifestation of the sons of God)? Is He reigning over us believers now? YES! But not His enemies.
OR...
Does He reign over His enemies for only a split-second just before destroying them all at His coming? Seems weird to mention a reign if there isn't one.
OR...
Does He reign over the saints who will already be like Him, who ascended and are married to Him? Again, we're not His enemies.
OR...
Does He reign WITH the saints over the nations to teach them the truth, as is said throughout scripture?
It has always been about redeeming the earth. "The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof". It's the original plan He established before Israel sinned. His plan is to create a kingdom of PRIESTS to go out into the world and teach the knowledge of God. We are only at the stage of building that priesthood. There is a lot more left to this grand drama. Why do you think satan is only bound and not destroyed?
2 Peter 3:8
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
...which is a call back to...
Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
An entire nation of Priests (i.e., representatives of God). Why?
Deut 32:8
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
Israel's sin placed a detour on His plan, but it didn't derail it. Yah's will be done. His Word doesn't return to him void, but accomplishes what He set out to do. He will have a righteous kingdom of priests to minister to the nations to teach them about Him because that is what He said.
“John plainly taught about the 1000-yr reign”
you think it’s a literal timeline of events ….. that’s not what it is
“And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
Revelation 5:4-6 KJV
There is no literal lion of Judah
“the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book,”
To make sense of that we have to have heard the Bible
“Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: Thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; Thy father's children shall bow down before thee. Judah is a lion's whelp: From the prey, my son, thou art gone up: He stooped down, he couched as a lion, And as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh come; And unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”
Genesis 49:8-10 KJV
“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; and shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”
Isaiah 11:1-4 KJV
these are prophecies about the messiah who would come to israel later. The visions john has shows a summary of many orophecies and n the Bible and makes severqk visions out of them to communicate prophecy and fulfillment
there isn’t a literal slain lamb at gods right hand with seven eyes and seven horns that everyone is worshipping either . The imagery of the lamb being slain and worshipped again is because of the established biblical doctrine
“And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.”
Genesis 22:8 KJV
“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
John 1:29 KJV
The one is seen as being slain and appearing in heaven at the throne because again that’s doctrine about Jesus being slain and rising again and ascending to Gods right hand in heaven
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19 KJV
this is why we see imagery of a lamb who’s been slain opening a sealed book no one can read
“And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:”
Isaiah 29:11 KJV
God looked for someone who understood and sought him
“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Psalm 14:2-3 KJV
Jesus was the one to come and give man the true words and answers and vision of who god actually is towards mankind the one to open and then distribute gods judgements into all the world
There also aren’t any literal horses with riders coming out of the sealed book …. Those represent the four judgements God warned israel about repeatedly in the law
The sword the famine the pestilence and curse of death. also the four spirits of the heavens the four angels who appear holding back judgement for a time in revelation
“For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
Ezekiel 14:21
Revelatuon expects us to have knowledge of what the entire Bible says
with seven eyes
“Israel's sin placed a detour on His plan, but it didn't derail it. Yah's will be done. His Word doesn't return to him void, but accomplishes what He set out to do.“
“He will have a righteous kingdom of priests to minister to the nations to teach them about Him because that is what He said.”
“and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Revelation 1:5-6 KJV
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 KJV
“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord's doing, And it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
Matthew 21:42-43 KJV
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
Matthew 23:37-38 KJV
Friend, you can't use the rules of prophetic imagery to interpret time.
When studying, we let the bible define its own terms and establish its own precedents. Early on in the bible, the Almighty established that prophetic images represent persons, places, or things. But the timeframes given in prophecy are always exact measurements, even if they require our mathematical conversion based on the rules the Almighty gives. They always have a beginning and an end.
Time is the ultimate context of all prophecy because it proves the Almighty is true and the One in control. Unfortunately, the enemy has been successful at corrupting this aspect of study for most. Without a proper understanding of the Almighty's timing, most Christians are neither on schedule nor prepared, having no clue where we actually are in world events.
Genesis - "in the day you eat of the forbidden tree you shall surely die..."
(sadly most spiritualize this one away...essentially calling God a liar)
Numbers - " 40 years you will wander...a year for each day spies searched Canaan"
Jeremiah - "70 years of exile..."
Ezekiel - "390 days on your left side...40 days on your right side...so shall both kingdoms be punished, a day for a year"
Daniel - "2300 evening and mornings"'
Daniel - "Seventy-Sevens have been decreed for thy people".
(most arbitrarily claim God has paused time for nearly 2000 years between the 69th and 70th seven, which would make the decree longer than seventy sevens...essentially calling God a liar again)
Daniel - "It shall be for a Time, times, and dividing of time."
Jonah - "40 days until Nineveh is overthrown."
Matthew - "...as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth..."
(most can't count to three and so squeeze The Passion, death, and Resurrection into a weekend...now calling the Messiah a liar)
Every one of the prophecies above gives exact timeframes. At no point do any of these timeframes define a timeframe other than the interval they suggest. To allegorize (or spiritualize) these times shows our ignorance at best or faithlessness at worst.
So, regarding time, based on the precedent set multiple times in scripture, the reign of the Messiah and His saints after the resurrection is exactly 1000 years.
Who are the 'they' that sat on the thrones?
They are the army of the Lord, Revelation 19:14, and the saints promised to sit with the Lord on His throne, Revelation 3:21.
And I saw the souls of those that were beheaded.....; and they ( both sets of people, the saints and the martyrs ) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 19:19-21 does not describe the whole world being destroyed that does not happen until after the 1000 years.
There will be a great army of all nations gathered to fight the Lord and His army, and they will be destroyed by the Lord and His army. Zechariah chapter 14 describes the nations being required to come to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles, that happens during the 1000 years, making clear that the immortal saints will rule over the remaining mortals for 1000 years.
I think That you do not understand the sequence of events nor God's 7000 year Plan
The 7 Feasts of God outline the main events
The first event which is not a Holy Feast is Passover.
One major problem; it is Satan that wants all to die not God -- God's plan is to save ALL, hundreds of billions
Are you aware after Christ has returned to earth as KING there is a 2nd Exodus of the 12 Tribes to Jerusalem?
This begins the 1000 year rule of Christ on earth
and at the end of the 1000 years the 100 billion or more that lived and died during the 6000 years before Christ returns are resurrected to physical life and given their one chance for eternal life.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
those that live and reign with Christ are in the first resurrection. the rest of the dead are the second resurrection
God's Plan is beyond wonderful,
This is what I gleaned:
In Rev. 19:1-21 John heard the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting praise to God for His just judgments, which included condemnation of the great prostitute who corrupted the earth and murdered those who served God (Rev. 17:1-6, 18:2-24). The 24
elders and four living creatures (Rev. 4:4-10, 5:6, 7:11, 11:16) also worshipped God and cried, "Amen, Hallelujah!"
Then a voice from the throne urged God's servants to praise Him, and a multitude glorified God because the wedding of the Lamb has come (cf. Matt. 22:1-14), and the bride is the saints (cf. 2Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:25-27, Isa. 54:5). An angel said, "Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" John fell at his feet, but the angel told him to worship God (cf. Acts 14:11-13), whose testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (cf. Matt. 11:13, Luke 24:44-45, John 5:39-40&46, 2Pet. 1:21).
Then John saw a white horse, whose rider was called Faithful and True (Rev. 3:14), who conducts just war (cf. Eccl. 3:8), who was dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Matt. 26:28, Rom. 5:9, Col. 1:20, Heb. 9:22, 1Pet. 1:18-19, 1John 1:7), and whose name is the Word of God (John 1:1-14). Armies from heaven followed him, and out of his mouth came a sharp sword (Eph. 6:7, Heb. 4:12). He will rule the nations with an iron scepter (Rev. 2:27, 12:5, Psa. 2:9)
He trod the winepress of God's wrath (Isa. 63:3, Rev. 14:19-20), and on his robe and thigh was written the name, "King of kings and Lord of lords" (cf. 1Tim. 6:15, Rev. 17:14). An angel cried out an invitation to come to the supper of God and eat the flesh of ungodly people (cf. Psa. 14:4, 27:2, Micah 3:2-3).
Finally, John saw a beast with the armies of the kings of the earth gathered to make war against the rider on the white horse (cf. Matt. 24:6-8, Rev. 16:14, 20:7-8, Zech. 14:1-3), but he was captured along with the false prophet who had performed miracles on his behalf, which deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshipped his image (Rev. 13:11-15, 16:13-14). The beast and false prophet were thrown into the fiery lake (Rev. 20:10), and the rest were killed by the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the white horse (Rev. 1:16).
What does this mean? When Christ returns he brings the 12 tribes with him.
Jeremiah 16: 14 - 15
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, ----that it shall - --- no more be said, ---The LORD liveth, ---- --- that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, -- The LORD liveth, -------that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither He had driven them: --------and I will bring them ---“again”--- into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jeremiah 23: 7, 8
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, --- The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led ---the seed --- of the house of Israel ---out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
After Christ has returned the remnant of whole House of Israel, that has survived the time of the end will return to the Promised Land by a second Exodus to receive the Promised Land, to fulfill God's promise to Abraham.
they will live there for 1000 years.
34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities [are become] fenced, [and] are inhabited.
36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined [places, and] plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken [it], ---- and I will do [it].
37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet [for] this be enquired (resorted to) of by the house of Israel, to do [it] for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.
the above scriptures are only a few about the return and the second exodus-
and if you read Obadiah you will understand after Christ has returned, those in the 2nd Exodus as they travel through Turkey/Esau
they kill every male.
Folks do not know what is about to come as they avoid the Old Testament -- the Return is very very close and that "day and Hour" is upon us.
Does Rev. 19 in your Bible say Christ returns bringing the 12 tribes with him? I don't see that.
Mine refers to the bride, which is the saints (cf. 2Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:25-27, Isa. 54:5), and an angel saying,
"Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!"
at the 2nd Exodus the 12 tribes return to the Promised Land, this is after the Return. Christ promised Abraham his seed would inherit the Land which has not happened yet, but is certain.
at the return of Christ, His Bride the Church, meets Him in the clouds and descend to the Mount of Olives together.
two events
Scripture plainly says that any believers on earth who are alive at his return will meet him in the air, not on the Mt of Olives.
IMO it makes more sense to discuss the 12 tribes in connection with Rev. 7 & 14:1, and stick with the OP in Rev. 19,
unless the former can shed light on the latter or visa versa. If it does, then go for it by answering your own question:
What does this mean: When Christ returns he brings the 12 tribes with him?
I don't know how to continue this discussion. It's elementary to me that everyone in Christ, from Adam to the last living stone in the temple, will return with him when he comes. IMO that's the basic meaning of the verse that says the angels will gather his elect from one end of heaven to the other when he returns
What about the wheat and the tares? It doesn't mention a third group who is left. In Revelation 19 it says the remnant is killed. Why is Satan bound for a thousand years, unless there is a thousand year Sabbath? The earth is given her rest.
The wrath of God is poured out before the millennium, with the saved called out and the tares burnt. It is my opinion that Zechariah 14 occurs after the thousand years. Can you imagine the earth devoid of life for a thousand years. Trees grown up over the roads. Everything rusted and decayed. And then there is this group of people resurrected after the thousand years with no knowledge of modern technology. They are the bones of Ezekiel 37 with Gog and Magog as part of it. There will be no planes no cars, only horses, and camels, and donkeys. This will be the late harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles.
Remember that Jesus went to those of Noah's day and preached to them. Do we have an answer for that? There is more we do not know then do know. Remember that Ezekiel said, Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
How would the Northern and Southern kingdom become one again, except they be resurrected?