Is cessation an observation or theology?

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Genez said:
One of the gifts was not answered prayer.
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I think answered prayers ARE gifts from God which are given to us no matter how they are delivered to us.

7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matthew 7:7-11)
 
JimiSurvivor said:
Paul never said tongues HAD ceased. He said they WILL cease when the PERFECT has come.
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The "PERFECT" has come. We know this for the same reason that the Hebrews knew that the manna ceased.

Do I need to explain this further?

Read Joshua 5:12.
 
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If God's grace (charis) is working through someone to heal, how is that not a gift (charisma), a manifestation of one of the gifts (charismata) of the Spirit?
 
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Lamar said:
The "PERFECT" has come. We know this for the same reason that the Hebrews knew that the manna ceased.

Do I need to explain this further?

Read Joshua 5:12.
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Your reasoning is something like 'gifts have ceased because gifts have ceased' and 'we know testimonies of gifts don't aren't genuine because there is no evidence of gifts happening.'

It's kind of like David Hume's argument that miracles don't happen because they aren't part of human experience. Craig Keener tried to address this in a footnote, but ended up turning that into 1200 pages+ in a book called _Miracles_ which contains numerous historical and contemporary accounts of documented miracles. Keener is a Biblical scholar known for his Biblical commentaries.

Do you think if Agabus, Judas, Silas, and the apostles went to sleep at night and none of them were prophesying for an hour or two in 35 AD, that the gift of prophecy ceased?

The passage doesn't say if prophecies aren't going on for a minute, the gift ceases. Paul says, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' (1:7) in the context of a reference to his readers being enriched in all utterance and all knowledge (two areas of spiritual gifting he addresses in the epistle), and in the context of saying 'who shall confirm you until the end.'

The 'end' is mentioned in reference to the resurrection and the return of Christ in I Corinthians 15. The context and the flow of argument in the epistle does not align with your viewpoint.
 
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Lamar said:
The "PERFECT" has come. We know this for the same reason that the Hebrews knew that the manna ceased.

Do I need to explain this further?

Read Joshua 5:12.
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A. You alluded to manna but, according to Jesus, this represented Himself. Jesus called HIMSELF the BREAD OF LIFE:
32 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who GAVE you the bread from heaven (or heavenly bread), but it is My Father who GIVES you [or is giving you] the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God IS He who COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33)
Jesus made this even more clear in the subsequent verses of this passage:
34“Sir,” they said, “give us this bread at all times.”
35 Jesus answered, “I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.
The emphasis of Jesus' teaching is not on MIRACULOUS works or whether or not they would continue. It was about eternal life and how we can partake of it.
(John 6:34-35)

B. You never explained your ideas about what this (future) "Perfect Thing" would be nor did you state under what conditions the charismata would be withdrawn and discontinued. You did mention that the Manna did not continue after Israel entered the Land but what is the interpretation of this. According to the NT the INHERITANCE of NC believers includes all that we will enter into when the Lord will says:
Enter into the Joy of the Lord. As Peter said:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an INHERITANCE that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, (1 Peter 1:3-4)

C. The Apostle Paul said the charismata would no longer be necessary once we have had a direct face-to-face encounter with Him which will only happen when He returns:
2 Beloved, we are NOW children of God, and what we WILL be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,
we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.…
(1 John 3:2-3)

D. I Corinthians 13 contrasts how things are for us NOW versus how they will be at that FUTURE TIME
(1) NOW we see but a DIM REFLECTION as in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12)
Mirrors at that time, being made of polished bronze, did not yield a perfectly clear image.
(2) THEN (when we see Him face-to-face) we will obtain what Paul calls EPIGNOSIS which is a compound of GNOSIS (knowledge) + EPI. (over) Adding this prefix intensifies gnosis so that it means "to know by having a relationship which is direct, personal and experiential"
(3) Our understanding which is currently partial at that time will be complete
 
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JimiSurvivor said:
I think answered prayers ARE gifts from God which are given to us no matter how they are delivered to us.
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Answered prayer can be said to be a sign from God that your spiritual relationship with the Father is a healthy one.

It was not one of the gifts mentioned by Paul that he said were to be discontinued.
 
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Paul described that future day when the gifts of the Spirit would cease
I Corinthians 12 says:
8 Love never ends.
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10but when the perfect [or completeness] comes, the partial will pass away.
11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10 ESV)

Do we see Him face-to-face?
Do we know Him fully just as much as He knows us?
Has the plan of redemption been consummated yet? (Ephesians 1:9-10)
If these events have not occurred then God is not ready to cease using the spiritual gifts

You still have not even defined the difference between GIFTS of HEALING and the healing that comes in answer to prayer. This is an odd point to make since you do not appear to believe miracles happen at all - even if they come in answer to prayer. I am happy to be corrected on this point.
 
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Genez said:
Answered prayer can be said to be a sign from God that your spiritual relationship with the Father is a healthy one.

It was not one of the gifts mentioned by Paul that he said were to be discontinued.
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1 Corinthians 12:9 reads:
9 to another is given faith by the same Spirit,to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
Again, how do you distinguish exegetically between the GIFT of HEALING and healing that comes through prayer?
 
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JimiSurvivor said:
1 Corinthians 12:9 reads:
9 to another is given faith by the same Spirit,to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
Again, how do you distinguish exegetically between the GIFT of HEALING and healing that comes through prayer?
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Why do we need to know that today?
 
Genez said:
Why do we need to know that today?
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If your presupposition is that God has caused all the "spiritual gifts" to CEASE, then, I can see how you would be justified (in your own mind, at least) that all the wisdom Paul gave to the Corinthians about how to use the gifts is anachronistic and irrelevant. If that is the case, I can see why you could come to the conclusion that reading 1 Corinthians 12 is no longer necessary except, perhaps, as an academic exercise or as a way to argue with Continuationism.

Since I have found no SCRIPTUAL EVIDENCE that the gifts have ceased, I am open to the possibility that God still MIGHT perform miracles. I am not saying God ALWAYS performs miracles. Even Paul's co-workers became sick on occasion and he did not rebuke them for not having faith.
 
JimiSurvivor said:
If your presupposition is that God has caused all the "spiritual gifts" to CEASE, then, I can see how you would be justified (in your own mind, at least) that all the wisdom Paul gave to the Corinthians about how to use the gifts is anachronistic and irrelevant. If that is the case, I can see why you could come to the conclusion that reading 1 Corinthians 12 is no longer necessary except, perhaps, as an academic exercise or as a way to argue with Continuationism.

Since I have found no SCRIPTUAL EVIDENCE that the gifts have ceased, I am open to the possibility that God still MIGHT perform miracles. I am not saying God ALWAYS performs miracles. Even Paul's co-workers became sick on occasion and he did not rebuke them for not having faith.
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All "spiritual gifts"?

No.

Only the ones Paul said would cease.
 
JimiSurvivor said:
Can you tell me specifically which spiritual gifts ceased. This would help me understand your view.
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Are you just starting out as a believer?
I do not think so.

You show me which ones Paul said will have an end.
 
Lamar said:
I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.
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Some people justify their own powerless Christian limp to themsleves by denying that anyone has power in their Christian walk.
 
Lamar said:
The "PERFECT" has come. We know this for the same reason that the Hebrews knew that the manna ceased.

Do I need to explain this further?

Read Joshua 5:12.
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A. First, you told me to read over Joshua 5:12 hinting that we KNOW the spiritual gifts have ceased for the same reason that the ancient Hebrews knew that the manna ceased - because it DID cease. This is circular reasoning. I have studied historical accounts describing the same kind of manifestations Paul described in 1 Corinthians occurring periodically throughout history. I have only alluded to a only a few of these so far. Presidente alluded to others. I could cite many more sources and will, if it becomes necessary. This, of course, is not definitive PROOF. However, much of what we know about the events of the NT are the result of TESTIMONY. Even the testimony of eye-witnesses affirming the resurrection can be denied since they died long ago

B. My second point is that, while using typology is a perfectly acceptable way of understanding the spiritual meaning of the Bible, we are not free to INVENT our own typological systems to prove our presuppositions. Having been exposed to extreme forms of this, I am
reluctant to use that method unless I find sufficient grounds to do so in the writings of the Biblical authors. Any claim of supernatural working of the Spirit must be consistent with the whole tenor of orthodox doctrine. Thus, if I hear a testimony of how the angel Gabriel helped Sister Mary Catherine find her second best thimble I am very much inclined to reject it.

C. The wilderness journey of Israel was obviously meant to represent our deliverance from slavery (to sin) by the blood of the Passover Lamb. The Bible teaches this. Your own elaboration on this typology - that the cessation of the manna when they entered the Land corresponds to the cessation of the charismata is much more tenuous and uncertain. For instance, in your typology, entering the LAND is equivalent to WHAT - entering into the promise of the New Covenant, OR entering into the fullness of the Kingdom to Come in the world to come? It is impossible to say for sure. You seem to assume that the cessation of the manna corresponds directly to the cessation of the spiritual gifts which Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 12. You also seem to think, that this association is (or should be) self-evident to all sincere students of the scriptures.

D. I have no doubt it SEEMS self-evident to you and that you are absolutely convinced of it but, because the text never specifically states this the proposition is not at all certain. This is why I objected to this interpretation in a prior post because Jesus Himself did not equate the "heavenly manna" with the charismata. He said manna typologically referred to HIMSELF who had "come down from heaven" to offer ETERNAL LIFE to mankind
(John 6:51)
 
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