Old and New Wine skins

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Gideon300

Ancient Mariner
Mar 18, 2021
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
Recently I was reminded of the astounding number of denominations. God recognises none of them. He has one church, not 40,000. I watched a video recently about life in Israel in the time of Jesus. There was mention of old and new wine skins and I realised why at least some denominations have formed over the centuries since the Reformation.

A characteristic of a new wine skin is flexibility. In the time of Jesus, grapes fermented because there was not way of halting the process. Putting that wine into an old, rigid wine skin would have been foolish. Wine gives off gases as it ferments. The pressure is too much for old, hardened skins.

The Reformation was like new wine in the Catholic wine skin. Luther's 95 thesis blew a hole in the rigid theology of Rome. Exact numbers are hard to assess, but millions of people turned away from Catholicism. Luther's ideas were especially new, but he lived in the time when printing had been invented and the message could spread easily.

So everything was wonderful, correct? No. The "new wine" of the Reformation quickly became old and the wine skin became rigid. Various new denominations started as fresh insight into God's word was gained. One of these insights was baptism by immersion. This was promoted by Anabaptists who were severely persecuted for their beliefs.

A more modern controversy revolves around the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was saved in 1971. The Pentecostals had been active since the early 1900's. The Charismatic movement brought the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to the non-Pentecostal churches. Again, the old wine skins burst and many left the non-Charismatic scene. It was a strange time indeed. I know someone who was kicked out of a Baptist church for promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not long after, the Pastor had a change of heart and embraced it. Not everyone was happy. new wine/old wine skin.

This does not explain every denomination, but it does explain a lot. Some mainstream denominations have taken to embracing woke, progressive and worldly attitudes to try and plug the holes in their old wine skins. All that has done is create even more division.

I believe that God has bypassed the denominations. There is one truth that no denomination has yet embraced, at least that I know of. The "pyramid", top-down leadership model of the Catholic tradition has been retained by most fellowships. Most believers are Sunday morning spectators who are allowed to join in the singing. This is nothing like the pattern given by God.

According to God's word, every individual in a congregation is an essential part of the body of Christ. The hand is no more or less important than the foot. We have two hands, two feet, two eyes, two ears, all necessary for the health of the church. Elders are supposed to be able to teach. Yet the load is placed on a paid professional who is expected to do most of the work. I know one pastor who mowed the lawns of the church. "Why does the church have deacons?" I asked. Sadly, the spectator mentality is hard to overcome.

No one hands out prizes to spectators. No pastor should be so overworked that he burns out. He should be able to take a break and allow one of the congregation to preach from time to time. Christians need to know that they are valued and necessary. If one is away, the fellowship should miss that individual. This is one reason why people drift from church to church, seeking somewhere that they are valued.
 
Recently I was reminded of the astounding number of denominations. God recognises none of them. He has one church, not 40,000. I watched a video recently about life in Israel in the time of Jesus. There was mention of old and new wine skins and I realised why at least some denominations have formed over the centuries since the Reformation.

A characteristic of a new wine skin is flexibility. In the time of Jesus, grapes fermented because there was not way of halting the process. Putting that wine into an old, rigid wine skin would have been foolish. Wine gives off gases as it ferments. The pressure is too much for old, hardened skins.

The Reformation was like new wine in the Catholic wine skin. Luther's 95 thesis blew a hole in the rigid theology of Rome. Exact numbers are hard to assess, but millions of people turned away from Catholicism. Luther's ideas were especially new, but he lived in the time when printing had been invented and the message could spread easily.

So everything was wonderful, correct? No. The "new wine" of the Reformation quickly became old and the wine skin became rigid. Various new denominations started as fresh insight into God's word was gained. One of these insights was baptism by immersion. This was promoted by Anabaptists who were severely persecuted for their beliefs.

A more modern controversy revolves around the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was saved in 1971. The Pentecostals had been active since the early 1900's. The Charismatic movement brought the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to the non-Pentecostal churches. Again, the old wine skins burst and many left the non-Charismatic scene. It was a strange time indeed. I know someone who was kicked out of a Baptist church for promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not long after, the Pastor had a change of heart and embraced it. Not everyone was happy. new wine/old wine skin.

This does not explain every denomination, but it does explain a lot. Some mainstream denominations have taken to embracing woke, progressive and worldly attitudes to try and plug the holes in their old wine skins. All that has done is create even more division.

I believe that God has bypassed the denominations. There is one truth that no denomination has yet embraced, at least that I know of. The "pyramid", top-down leadership model of the Catholic tradition has been retained by most fellowships. Most believers are Sunday morning spectators who are allowed to join in the singing. This is nothing like the pattern given by God.

According to God's word, every individual in a congregation is an essential part of the body of Christ. The hand is no more or less important than the foot. We have two hands, two feet, two eyes, two ears, all necessary for the health of the church. Elders are supposed to be able to teach. Yet the load is placed on a paid professional who is expected to do most of the work. I know one pastor who mowed the lawns of the church. "Why does the church have deacons?" I asked. Sadly, the spectator mentality is hard to overcome.

No one hands out prizes to spectators. No pastor should be so overworked that he burns out. He should be able to take a break and allow one of the congregation to preach from time to time. Christians need to know that they are valued and necessary. If one is away, the fellowship should miss that individual. This is one reason why people drift from church to church, seeking somewhere that they are valued.

Good point. The wine-wineskins analogy aptly portrays the problem of Judaizers,
who want to pour the new Gospel into the OT/C.
 
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Not all the people in the pews are Born Again Christians ------just because they use the Name of being a Christian doesn't mean they are true Christians ---and that goes for the Minister preaching as well ----

So one has to be careful about staying in a church that isn't preaching the New Gospel of Grace or that is trying to mix the Old wine of the Law with the New wine of the Gospel ----

Spiritual Implications

Grace vs. Legalism:

The new way of salvation by grace cannot be combined with old methods of legalism (trying to earn salvation). Trying to mix them ruins the gospel's power.

Need for Transformation:

God does not just want to "patch up" the old self, but to make a new creation. We must be transformed internally to hold the power of the Holy Spirit.

Flexibility and Growth:

The parable encourages believers to be adaptable and ready for change. If we are stagnant in our routines, we cannot grow into the new levels God desires for us.

Letting Go of the Past:

It challenges believers to let go of old, comfortable ways of doing things that no longer serve God's purpose


Letting go of the past is so very important ----Satan will try to keep you in your past ---going after your true Identity ----as he did with Jesus in the Wilderness ------

IF YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD -------turn these stones into bread ------Trying to get Jesus to question His true Identity -------

True Christians have to know their Scriptures very well so they know when the Minister is Preaching the True Word or what they think is the Word ----Mixing the Old and New Wine is a no no ----according to Scripture -----
 
Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

A person cannot receive the Spirit unless their sins are forgiven and they are a new creature.

I believe this is what this means the new wine representing the Spirit that is given to the saints who are a new creature.

Which the Spirit does not possess the old man but the new man.
 
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The demoninations that exist are a very cleaver and carefully laid out plan by the enemy.We must remember we are in a war here so you have think as if you are in war. The enemy is a master at the art of war instead of confronting the enemy head on the best option is to divide confuse and then overtake them. He has divided the body of Christ to such a degree that has made us fight against each other or confuse us to the point that we don't even know truth from false anymore

This is why I always say on here that we must not sucumb to the enemies tactics to stop with the bickering and strife pointless debates that only serve to make things worse and to instead feed each other encourage each other comfort and lift ne another up regardless of what doctrine or belief or denomination you are in or have so long as the heart and spirit are being feed and given water it doesn't matter if you are in one denomination or another

The enemy created deniminations but God created the spirit in us and if we are in one spirit then truth will always reveal itself fruits will overflow your basket water will flow and pour out of you unending
 
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Recently I was reminded of the astounding number of denominations. God recognises none of them. He has one church, not 40,000. I watched a video recently about life in Israel in the time of Jesus. There was mention of old and new wine skins and I realised why at least some denominations have formed over the centuries since the Reformation.

A characteristic of a new wine skin is flexibility. In the time of Jesus, grapes fermented because there was not way of halting the process. Putting that wine into an old, rigid wine skin would have been foolish. Wine gives off gases as it ferments. The pressure is too much for old, hardened skins.

The Reformation was like new wine in the Catholic wine skin. Luther's 95 thesis blew a hole in the rigid theology of Rome. Exact numbers are hard to assess, but millions of people turned away from Catholicism. Luther's ideas were especially new, but he lived in the time when printing had been invented and the message could spread easily.

So everything was wonderful, correct? No. The "new wine" of the Reformation quickly became old and the wine skin became rigid. Various new denominations started as fresh insight into God's word was gained. One of these insights was baptism by immersion. This was promoted by Anabaptists who were severely persecuted for their beliefs.

A more modern controversy revolves around the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was saved in 1971. The Pentecostals had been active since the early 1900's. The Charismatic movement brought the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to the non-Pentecostal churches. Again, the old wine skins burst and many left the non-Charismatic scene. It was a strange time indeed. I know someone who was kicked out of a Baptist church for promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not long after, the Pastor had a change of heart and embraced it. Not everyone was happy. new wine/old wine skin.

This does not explain every denomination, but it does explain a lot. Some mainstream denominations have taken to embracing woke, progressive and worldly attitudes to try and plug the holes in their old wine skins. All that has done is create even more division.

I believe that God has bypassed the denominations. There is one truth that no denomination has yet embraced, at least that I know of. The "pyramid", top-down leadership model of the Catholic tradition has been retained by most fellowships. Most believers are Sunday morning spectators who are allowed to join in the singing. This is nothing like the pattern given by God.

According to God's word, every individual in a congregation is an essential part of the body of Christ. The hand is no more or less important than the foot. We have two hands, two feet, two eyes, two ears, all necessary for the health of the church. Elders are supposed to be able to teach. Yet the load is placed on a paid professional who is expected to do most of the work. I know one pastor who mowed the lawns of the church. "Why does the church have deacons?" I asked. Sadly, the spectator mentality is hard to overcome.

No one hands out prizes to spectators. No pastor should be so overworked that he burns out. He should be able to take a break and allow one of the congregation to preach from time to time. Christians need to know that they are valued and necessary. If one is away, the fellowship should miss that individual. This is one reason why people drift from church to church, seeking somewhere that they are valued.

Wait.. a member of the body of Christ is an individual..not an entire local church.

When Paul talked about the body in 1 Co 12.. the body in question was at Corinth and the members of it..the individual believers who had joined that local body

'Ye are the body of Christ and members in particular '..that is corinth
 
No pastor should be so overworked that he burns out.
Assuming a local assembly is operating within biblical perimeters......A pastor is a teacher for the local assembly. That is it!

And that is what a church is supposed to be. A teaching place for the word.


WE (the local assembly) are to do the "works" of the local assembly......But try to describe those "works"!!!!....Most are the dog and pony show works of the world.
 
Assuming a local assembly is operating within biblical perimeters......A pastor is a teacher for the local assembly. That is it!

And that is what a church is supposed to be. A teaching place for the word.


WE (the local assembly) are to do the "works" of the local assembly......But try to describe those "works"!!!!....Most are the dog and pony show works of the world.

So let's define what the church is suppose to be. What are we to be to the world as well as to each other?
 
Recently I was reminded of the astounding number of denominations. God recognises none of them. He has one church, not 40,000. I watched a video recently about life in Israel in the time of Jesus. There was mention of old and new wine skins and I realised why at least some denominations have formed over the centuries since the Reformation.

A characteristic of a new wine skin is flexibility. In the time of Jesus, grapes fermented because there was not way of halting the process. Putting that wine into an old, rigid wine skin would have been foolish. Wine gives off gases as it ferments. The pressure is too much for old, hardened skins.

The Reformation was like new wine in the Catholic wine skin. Luther's 95 thesis blew a hole in the rigid theology of Rome. Exact numbers are hard to assess, but millions of people turned away from Catholicism. Luther's ideas were especially new, but he lived in the time when printing had been invented and the message could spread easily.

So everything was wonderful, correct? No. The "new wine" of the Reformation quickly became old and the wine skin became rigid. Various new denominations started as fresh insight into God's word was gained. One of these insights was baptism by immersion. This was promoted by Anabaptists who were severely persecuted for their beliefs.

A more modern controversy revolves around the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I was saved in 1971. The Pentecostals had been active since the early 1900's. The Charismatic movement brought the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to the non-Pentecostal churches. Again, the old wine skins burst and many left the non-Charismatic scene. It was a strange time indeed. I know someone who was kicked out of a Baptist church for promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not long after, the Pastor had a change of heart and embraced it. Not everyone was happy. new wine/old wine skin.

This does not explain every denomination, but it does explain a lot. Some mainstream denominations have taken to embracing woke, progressive and worldly attitudes to try and plug the holes in their old wine skins. All that has done is create even more division.

I believe that God has bypassed the denominations. There is one truth that no denomination has yet embraced, at least that I know of. The "pyramid", top-down leadership model of the Catholic tradition has been retained by most fellowships. Most believers are Sunday morning spectators who are allowed to join in the singing. This is nothing like the pattern given by God.

According to God's word, every individual in a congregation is an essential part of the body of Christ. The hand is no more or less important than the foot. We have two hands, two feet, two eyes, two ears, all necessary for the health of the church. Elders are supposed to be able to teach. Yet the load is placed on a paid professional who is expected to do most of the work. I know one pastor who mowed the lawns of the church. "Why does the church have deacons?" I asked. Sadly, the spectator mentality is hard to overcome.

No one hands out prizes to spectators. No pastor should be so overworked that he burns out. He should be able to take a break and allow one of the congregation to preach from time to time. Christians need to know that they are valued and necessary. If one is away, the fellowship should miss that individual. This is one reason why people drift from church to church, seeking somewhere that they are valued.

I think that if Mr. And Mrs. Somebody else would stop visiting every church and volunteering for every thing the churches would be in a better place.🤔
 
Think Jesus may agree? prob yes .it's His Word he ain't mixed His holyness in a ungodly unclean vessel chk covenants start with circumcision ...baptism x 2
 
The demoninations that exist are a very cleaver and carefully laid out plan by the enemy.We must remember we are in a war here so you have think as if you are in war. The enemy is a master at the art of war instead of confronting the enemy head on the best option is to divide confuse and then overtake them. He has divided the body of Christ to such a degree that has made us fight against each other or confuse us to the point that we don't even know truth from false anymore

This is why I always say on here that we must not sucumb to the enemies tactics to stop with the bickering and strife pointless debates that only serve to make things worse and to instead feed each other encourage each other comfort and lift ne another up regardless of what doctrine or belief or denomination you are in or have so long as the heart and spirit are being feed and given water it doesn't matter if you are in one denomination or another

The enemy created deniminations but God created the spirit in us and if we are in one spirit then truth will always reveal itself fruits will overflow your basket water will flow and pour out of you unending

Your point is well-taken. I think the Baptist view is good, because it affirms both the priesthood of each believer, the need for fellowship with other believers (in independent churches), and the cooperation/association of churches for missionary efforts.
 
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@Gideon300

I liked your post.

Much of the church does not know their history. Luther was a Roman priest when he nailed his 95 theses to the Castle Church building in Wittenberg in the early 1500's. He likely (according to his writings) saw it as an outline for reforming the Roman Church.

At the time, the Roman church was about ten years into extracting finances from regional monarchs, including the Germanic monarchs in Luther's area, to build St. Peter's Basilica. So, by the time Luther dropped his mixtape in Wittenberg, the German monarchs had been reeling from Roman church extortion for nearly a decade. Luther was sick of indulgences whereas the monarchs were sick of being milked by Rome.

So, when the Roman church invited Luther to Rome to "discuss his theses" (which would have resulted in his death) the Germanic monarchs offered Luther asylum and ultimately protection from Rome's charge of "heresy" against him. After all, if what Luther said could be codified, then Germanic leaders could stop funneling to Rome for their building project and find relevance to God within a slightly different religious paradigm: Lutheranism.

What we miss is that Luther was a Roman Catholic priest, ultimately, and so many of his ideas were just a few degrees off of his religious catechism and elementary teachings. That is why many refer to the Lutheran church as "Catholic lite": Luther only renovated the structure of the Roman religion but he kept many foundational (and heretical) ideas from the Roman church.
 
The enemy created deniminations but God created the spirit in us and if we are in one spirit then truth will always reveal itself fruits will overflow your basket water will flow and pour out of you unending
The enemy did not create denominations. Man did. The devil may have advised man to form denominations, because they are pretty much all dominations, where those at the top lord it over those considered below them. Denominations always have their "articles of faith", which always include mandatory opinions on disputable matters that a denomination insists the catechumen must choose (haireO, the Greek root of heresy and heretic) and must deny the mandatory opinions held by other denominations on those same disputable matters. Denying equal membership in my Christian community because they choose to hold different opinions from me on disputable matters is what creates denominations and is, in fact, what heresy really is.
 
The enemy did not create denominations. Man did. The devil may have advised man to form denominations, because they are pretty much all dominations, where those at the top lord it over those considered below them. Denominations always have their "articles of faith", which always include mandatory opinions on disputable matters that a denomination insists the catechumen must choose (haireO, the Greek root of heresy and heretic) and must deny the mandatory opinions held by other denominations on those same disputable matters. Denying equal membership in my Christian community because they choose to hold different opinions from me on disputable matters is what creates denominations and is, in fact, what heresy really is.

Yes, the enemy creates divisions, but denominations may be merely a matter of preference regarding secondary issues,
such as style of worship or cooperation for missionary endeavors. Denominations who claim to be the only true church are cults.
 
Jesus was asked a question about why his disciples were not fasting, so he answered their question by giving tge parable of the wine skins in order to make a point about different kinds of disciples.
 
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Jesus was asked a question about why his disciples were not fasting, so he answered their question by giving tge parable of the wine skins in order to make a point about different kinds of disciples.
Yes, those who cling to or revert to OT doctrine versus those who accept the NT Gospel and cooperate with what the HS teaches.