Was Mary Sinless?

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Mem said:
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance'
torment
Perhaps (emphasis mine as well as the following) remotely from the same as basis (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture -- torment.

this is hardly a definitive interpretation. I mean, does it really mean to say, "going to the butt" (see "by anal") and just trying to avoid sound too crude?

I was talking about that from HELPS Word-Studies as follows:

Cognate: 931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]
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You can get smarmy all you want about " going to the butt " just because of a dropped period on anal, that's funny. But still, men who reject Christ will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire. Period.
 
bytheblood said:
You can get smarmy all you want about " going to the butt " just because of a dropped period on anal, that's funny. But still, men who reject Christ will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire. Period.
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There's no existence without Christ. period.
 
bytheblood said:
So you're saying that all who reject Jesus as Lord and Savior will cease to exist? Torment, according to Strong's is translated from the Greek word # 928 basanizo- bas-an-id -zo; to torture:- pain, toil, torment, toss, vex & # 931 basano- bas-an-os: remotely from the same as 939 ( through the notion of going to the bottom) i.e. a TOUCHSTONE, i.e. (by anal) torture;-torment. # 939 basis- bas-ece (to walk); a pace (" base "),i.e. (by impl.) the foot. If satan, the anti-christ and the false prophet are to be thrown into the lake of fire FOREVER, then those who follow them into the lake of fire are destined for the same fate, forever. Just as the souls of the saints under the altar in heaven ( Rev. 6:9), the souls of those who reject Christ will FOREVER be in torment in the lake of fire. I don't know where you got that white stone and black stone from in connection to this. There is either eternal life, with God or eternal torment, in the lake of fire. " And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:34-5. This shows that men, body and soul, will go into hell and later cast into the lake of fire and if the fire doesn't kill THEIR worm then it won't consume them either. Eternal torment.
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Why have you included my post in your response? It doesn't speak to anything I said. I'm confused. :confused:
 
Mem said:
There's no existence without Christ. period.
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Then the Bible is wrong when it says there will be eternal torment? Will satan, the anti-christ and the false prophet be with Christ when they are eternally tormented in the lake of fire? Do they exist? Trap statement. Carry on.
 
bytheblood said:
To Sawdust: The word born in John 3:6 is the Greek word ghen-nah-o and the first definition given is " to procreate (prop. of the father, but by extens. of the mother), and then regenerate, which means in this instance: bring into RENEWED existence, generate AGAIN: give a new and higher spiritual nature to. If given a new AND higher spiritual nature there must be an old and lower spiritual nature.
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What is procreating what? Flesh is generating flesh. Spirit is generating spirit. Check out the link. The word translated "birth" is the same in both instances. There is no "again" in the first instance and there is no "again" in the second instance. Be consistent.

 
sawdust said:
What is procreating what? Flesh is generating flesh. Spirit is generating spirit. Check out the link. The word translated "birth" is the same in both instances. There is no "again" in the first instance and there is no "again" in the second instance. Be consistent.

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Better question is Who is procreating. The Holy Spirit RE-generates our human spirits.
 
bytheblood said:
Then the Bible is wrong when it says there will be eternal torment? Will satan, the anti-christ and the false prophet be with Christ when they are eternally tormented in the lake of fire? Do they exist? Trap statement. Carry on.
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God really can't kill any soul? He can only put all His energy into tormenting them forever and ever?
My judgment of the meaning of basanos stands, forever and ever.
 
sawdust said:
What is procreating what? Flesh is generating flesh. Spirit is generating spirit. Check out the link. The word translated "birth" is the same in both instances. There is no "again" in the first instance and there is no "again" in the second instance. Be consistent.

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Jesus said : ye must be born again " to Nick @ nite. He wasn't talking about flesh but about being born AGAIN spiritually by the Spirit.
 
bytheblood said:
Better question is Who is procreating. The Holy Spirit RE-generates our human spirits.
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Did you not look at the link? If you want to translate the second birth as something done twice then you will need to translate the first birth as RE-generate as well. The word regenerate does not always mean something "done over". I showed you that. It can mean something new is done and if you are going to be consistent (which you have not been so far) then you will need to see both births as something "done over again" or both births as something "done once" as they are the exact same word with the exact same grammar and the exact same meaning, to be born.
 
bytheblood said:
Jesus said : ye must be born again " to Nick @ nite. He wasn't talking about flesh but about being born AGAIN spiritually by the Spirit.
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What He actually said is you must be born "from above". The implication meaning there must be a new birth, one that had not occurred in the past.
 
Mem said:
God really can't kill any soul? He can only put all His energy into tormenting them forever and ever?
My judgment of the meaning of basanos stands, forever and ever.
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God, as Creator, has the power to do anything He wants. But He will NEVER do anything to override His Word and His Word, faithful men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, copied out. His Word speaks of eternal judgement. Jesus spoke, parable or not, about the rich man and Lazarus, with the rich man being in torment (hell) while Lazarus was in Abrahams bosom (paradise). Snapshop of what awaits those who reject Christ. Hell and the lake of fire are real and there are no exits, no escape, they are, or will be, there eternally. BTW, God has already set up everything, originally for the devil and his angels but, sadly, for those who choose not to submit to Christ and receive His free gift of salvation. God isn't a reactionary, He knows the end from the beginning, He has made sure that the fire will never go out.
 
sawdust said:
What He actually said is you must be born "from above". The implication meaning there must be a new birth, one that had not occurred in the past.
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" Jesus answered, and said unto him Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 " Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN." John 3:7 " Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 is what was ACTUALLY said.
 
bytheblood said:
" Jesus answered, and said unto him Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 " Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be BORN AGAIN." John 3:7 " Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 is what was ACTUALLY said.
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Let me guess .. KJV Only?
 
bytheblood said:
So, let me get this right, you say scripture is NOT given for instruction in righteousness?!!??
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In traditional Christian denomenations, the foundation of most theology and doctrines is the Pauline epistles, some of them have pagan origins; in messianic Judaism however, the foundation is the Torah, the first five books, it's like the blueprint of a building, the word "torah" primarily means "teaching" or "instruction", not "law" or "rule"; the gospels and Acts are the fulfilment of the Torah, and the Pauline epistles are essentially a Q&A, his responses to all kinds issues and confusions arising in the early churches. That, I'm afraid, is our inreconcilable difference.
 
Lovette said:
In traditional Christian denomenations, the foundation of most theology and doctrines is the Pauline epistles, some of them have pagan origins; in messianic Judaism however, the foundation is the Torah, the first five books, it's like the blueprint of a building, the word "torah" primarily means "teaching" or "instruction", not "law" or "rule"; the gospels and Acts are the fulfilment of the Torah, and the Pauline epistles are essentially a Q&A, his responses to all kinds issues and confusions arising in the early churches. That, I'm afraid, is our inreconcilable difference.
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Just checking. when you wrote, "some of them have pagan origins," did you mean that some Christian denominations have pagan origins, or that some of Paul's epistles have pagan origins? I cannot off-hand, think of a traditional Christian denomination which has pagan origins, and I certainly don't believe that any of the bible, and that includes Paul's letters, had pagan origins.
 
bytheblood said:
God, as Creator, has the power to do anything He wants. But He will NEVER do anything to override His Word and His Word, faithful men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, copied out. His Word speaks of eternal judgement. Jesus spoke, parable or not, about the rich man and Lazarus, with the rich man being in torment (hell) while Lazarus was in Abrahams bosom (paradise). Snapshop of what awaits those who reject Christ. Hell and the lake of fire are real and there are no exits, no escape, they are, or will be, there eternally. BTW, God has already set up everything, originally for the devil and his angels but, sadly, for those who choose not to submit to Christ and receive His free gift of salvation. God isn't a reactionary, He knows the end from the beginning, He has made sure that the fire will never go out.
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You've taken the imagery of the parable, or not, of the rich man literally but then symbolize Abraham's bosom. Why don't you have to take that so word for word?
 
DavidLamb said:
Just checking. when you wrote, "some of them have pagan origins," did you mean that some Christian denominations have pagan origins, or that some of Paul's epistles have pagan origins? I cannot off-hand, think of a traditional Christian denomination which has pagan origins, and I certainly don't believe that any of the bible, and that includes Paul's letters, had pagan origins.
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Some of their teachings have pagan origins, the most common one is gnosticism, i.e. "material things bad, corrupt and inferior, spiritual things good, pure and superior". "the body dies and perishes, the soul goes to heaven and lives forever," others include the very title of this thread, Virgin Mary worship, along with worship of dead saints, those are of pagan origins.
 
Lovette said:
Some of their teachings have pagan origins, the most common one is gnosticism, i.e. "material things bad, corrupt and inferior, spiritual things good, pure and superior". "the body dies and perishes, the soul goes to heaven and lives forever," others include the very title of this thread, Virgin Mary worship, along with worship of dead saints, those are of pagan origins.
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Ah, so you meant some denominations have pagan origins. I'm very glad you don't think Paul's epistles have pagan origins. I agree that some denominations teach things that do have pagan origins, such as the things you mention, and also some of the regalia and vestments they use. Thanks for explaining.
 
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