Okay, forget Bullinger for a moment. Am I to understand that you believe that, originally at least, there were TWO paths to salvation: one of which was a gospel for Jews only which required faith as well as adherence to certain practices left over from Judaeism and another, for Gentiles, which did not? Is this summary also painting with an "overly broad brush?" If it is why don't you narrow it down to something more specific?
Loss of salvation???
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Okay, forget Bullinger for a moment. Am I to understand that you believe that, originally at least, there were TWO paths to salvation: one of which was a gospel for Jews only which required faith as well as adherence to certain practices left over from Judaeism and another, for Gentiles, which did not? Is this summary also painting with an "overly broad brush?" If it is why don't you narrow it down to something more specific?
No. I do not believe that. There was the Kingdom Gospel, which went down at the fall of Israel, then there was the Gospel of Grace.
To say the Kingdom Gospel was one and the same as to Gospel of Grace not only defies the clarity of distinction we can see between Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 15, but it also leaves one trying to explain the devotion we of Israel had in our zeal for the Mosaic Law that was never preached to the Gentiles after the fall of Israel and the inception of Paul's Gospel taught to him in Arabia.
MM
No it’s not possible to lose .
Jesus said that his sheep will never perish . But they can lose their works . Hay wood and stubble will get burned up . Yet they will be saved . Yet so as by fire . The foundation stands sure . And that is Jesus . But there are those that seek to be saved but never do get saved , they have been deceived or give up and return to the world systems. Jesus said in the last days many will come in his name and deceive many . The word of God is sure and staying in it will keep us from the errors that can prevent Salvation, and ruin our works as believers. The Lord knows those that are his . And calls men every where to repent, so the invitation is open !
So many verses , that can lead a person to think Salvation can be lost or not . But I rest with Jesus words always . He said his sheep will never perish . That’s as good as he is , his word . Amen.
Jesus said that his sheep will never perish . But they can lose their works . Hay wood and stubble will get burned up . Yet they will be saved . Yet so as by fire . The foundation stands sure . And that is Jesus . But there are those that seek to be saved but never do get saved , they have been deceived or give up and return to the world systems. Jesus said in the last days many will come in his name and deceive many . The word of God is sure and staying in it will keep us from the errors that can prevent Salvation, and ruin our works as believers. The Lord knows those that are his . And calls men every where to repent, so the invitation is open !
So many verses , that can lead a person to think Salvation can be lost or not . But I rest with Jesus words always . He said his sheep will never perish . That’s as good as he is , his word . Amen.
Absolutely. You are correct on this because the scriptures are correct. Amen.
So many fail to realize that Jesus Himself taught OSAS, the very thing so many oppose to their detriment given that works-based salvation can save nobody.
Sadly true.
Yes.
Those verses that they point to as their proof texts for loss of salvation, every one of them, when read in context and paying careful attention to the actual texts, can be shown to not at all support their position.
Amen
MM
we don't have eternal salvation!
we have union with Christ and His grace which we cannot earn initially but we can increase 2 pet 3:18
and by sin can lose
(( will never inherit the kingdom of God or attain to eternal salvation ))
mt 25:30
Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27
rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 6:7-8
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
abide in Christ Jn 15:1-6
eternal salvation in the next life!
mk 10:30
mk 13;13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved
rev 2:10 crown of life to those who overcome and are faithful
thks
You'll have to expound upon that because I have no understanding of your take on it.
MM
Why not? Certainly amongst those prominent in the 18th Century revival in the UK, there were men like John Newton, George Whitfield, Howell Harris, William Grimshaw, and Daniel Rowlands, all of who held to the perseverance of the saints, or the eternal security of the believer.
I don't believe you do the cause of 'conditional security' any good with statements like that. As mentioned by David above, God has used Calvinists in revivals. Revival is not a phenomenon only for Arminians and Wesleyans. Real revival is a sovereign move of the Holy Spirit; one's theology rarely comes into it initially.
revival means that which was alive died and required revival!
ps 23:4 He restores my soul!
scince when did these rogue fundamentalist preachers have any authority?
only Christ and His apostolic church have authority!
we do not have eternal salvation but grace, grace can be increased by good works and lost by sin!
thks
you confusing true revival (bring back to life in specific person) with the preaching of the gospel
conditional perseverance not security
ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God within all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:13 (3) three things are eternal; faith, hope and charity and the greatest is charity.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13
He who endures to the end shall be saved.
rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Perseverance is conditional and requires our participation and faithfulness!
thks
I know what revival means. It sounds as if you must know a lot about John Newton, George Whitfield, Howell Harris, William Grimshaw, and Daniel Rowlands to be able to refer to them on this public forum as "rogue fundamentalist preachers." I am sure that they would have said that Jesus Christ is the ultimate authority (the Chief Shepherd), and they were merely under-shepherds.
As for grace, according to God's word, it s by grace that we are saved, and works should follow being saved:
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Our works cannot increase God's grace, because that grace, by definition, is undeserved favour.
we cannot earn or merit the initial grace of justification but we can and must grow in grace 2 pet 3:18 and add to faith 2 pet 1:5
Union with God and His angels & saints by Christ in grace and the Spirit!
Union with Christ by His grace & His merits & His power with life in the Spirit!
(we cannot do it alone of ourselves)
Jn 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
(grace now not eternal salvation)
Jn 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Union with God & His saints in Christ by the grace of justification by baptism with the infused supernatural virtues of faith, hope, & charity, sanctifying grace and the Holy Spirit.
Jn 3:16 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!
((endure to the end shall be saved))
mk 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
mt 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
mt 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
heb 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
heb 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
thks
we do not have eternal salvation but grace, grace can be increased by good works or lost by deadly sin!
2 pet 3:18 & gal 5:4 & 2 cor 4:7
grace in earthen vessels
2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthenvessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
thks
But growing in grace surely cannot mean that we grow or increase grace. As I said, grace is God's underserved favour. I would see most of the verses you quoted as being linked to what I quoted from Ephesians 2 about us being saved by grace for works. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply.
why was this man lost? mt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
thks
He wasn't one of the Sheep that heavenly kingdom was prepared for Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
He was evidently a cursed goat Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: