Was Mary Sinless?

[Genez]

You already said that.



It's in the meaning of the words. Both words mean messenger/delegate/provider which is a description of what they do, not what they are. We have come to use the words to distinguish between good and bad spirits. Angels and demons are both spirits in nature, either referred to as evil spirits/demons Lk.2:8 or ministering spirits Heb.1:14 in scripture.



What is it with people nowadays that they can't tell the difference between a statement and a question? You've given nothing to uphold your position other than a vague claim and I'm wondering what you are on about. I haven't made anything up. Look up for yourself the meaning of the words angel and demon and you will see what I said was true.



What can be known about God from creation is limited to His Godhead and His eternal power Rom.1:20 so trying to derive answers to complex questions would be somewhat foolish in my book as the creation is not designed to answer them.



So, what then? We throw out tradition? Again you give nothing except make vague claims.

If you have an argument proving demons and fallen angels are two distinct species then put it forth logically and systematically and we can look at it. Otherwise, why should I waste time arguing against the air.

The Book of Enoch lays claim that the dead half human - half angels from the flood of Noah... are spirits who are not yet in Hell. And, they are demons.

 

[sawdust]

The Book of Enoch lays claim that the dead half human - half angels from the flood of Noah... are spirits who are not yet in Hell. And, they are demons.

God is sloppy like that. Can manage to round up the evil souls and ship them off to Sheol upon death but can't manage a few hybrid spirits.

Amazes me how quickly they forget who holds the keys to death and hades. Rev.1:18

 

[GWH]

Thus, ALL are redeemable.........Pray the calvies/reformed theory folks could SEE this.

John 3:16, Acts 16:31.

Pray the Armins/religious folks can see this......Once redeemed , always redeemed.

Yes, sinners may be redeemed via accepting God's grace through exercising their God-given faith to repent of ignoring GW and to believe in Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and they remain redeemed as long as they do not repudiate saving faith.

Here is a song celebrating being redeemed: https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/redeemed

 

[rewriter]

You already said that.



It's in the meaning of the words. Both words mean messenger/delegate/provider which is a description of what they do, not what they are. We have come to use the words to distinguish between good and bad spirits. Angels and demons are both spirits in nature, either referred to as evil spirits/demons Lk.2:8 or ministering spirits Heb.1:14 in scripture.



What is it with people nowadays that they can't tell the difference between a statement and a question? You've given nothing to uphold your position other than a vague claim and I'm wondering what you are on about. I haven't made anything up. Look up for yourself the meaning of the words angel and demon and you will see what I said was true.



What can be known about God from creation is limited to His Godhead and His eternal power Rom.1:20 so trying to derive answers to complex questions would be somewhat foolish in my book as the creation is not designed to answer them.



So, what then? We throw out tradition? Again you give nothing except make vague claims.

If you have an argument proving demons and fallen angels are two distinct species then put it forth logically and systematically and we can look at it. Otherwise, why should I waste time arguing against the air.

There is lots of evidence that angels and demons are two different entities, however unless you are willing to question your assumptions, you will never see it. The Hebrew recognizes a difference, the Greek less so in one sense but in another sense recognizes a big difference.

Are you going by the Book of Enoch?

The Book of Enoch is interesting, but I agree with the scholars who believe that Paul specifically excluded that work from qualifying as scripture. If that is the correct understanding, it is a rare statement about what specifically is or is not scripture that has a clear apostolic basis. 2 Timothy 3:16 makes a statement about what is true about scripture. but not about what qualifies.

 

[Gideon300]

My bad....

There is someone here who thinks man is spirit.
The way you started out I assumed it was you.

I now see that was not what you were getting at.

The spirit is the real person. So yes, I say that fundamentally we are spirit beings, as God Himself is. The soul is the organ of expression, and should be reflecting what is in the spirit. The body is obvious.

The confusion is because God placed life in the soul of Adam when He created Adam initially. To help with understanding, I call it soul-life. I had one of the very early versions of the NASB and that's how they translated "psuche" in the NT. In some places, psuche is translated soul and others, life. It depends on context. However, it is clear to me that Adam had natural life that enabled him to function apart from his spirit.

God created man good, but incomplete. God placed the tree of life in the centre of Eden. God intended for Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of Life. If Adam had chosen life, he would have been no longer empty and no longer neutral towards God.

Ada disobeyed. He died spiritually. Death is not the end of existence, it is separation from God. We see this clearly in the account of man's fall. Adam and Eve hide from God and attempt to cover up. God evicts them from Eden.

The spirit of man still exists, and it is still empty. Vast numbers of believers will testify that being born again filled that void. God uses that void to draw people to Himself. People try everything under the sun to fill that void. Even the richest and most successful will testify that whatever they have or achieved is not enough. Only Jesus can make us alive and fill the emptiness that we are born with.

Christians are faced with a choice once they are born again. It is as if they are put back in Eden and once more given the choice: life or knowledge. Those who choose knowledge lack fruit because it the Spirit that produces fruit. Some realise that Lord Jesus alone gives life.

Few even realise that there is a choice to make. Very often it is only failure and defeat that brings us to an end of ourselves. We see that just because we know a truth mentally, it does not empower us to live it. Christ is the Life of the believer. The sooner we realise that and ask Him to live instead of the natural life, the better off we are.

 

[Genez]

Yes, sinners may be redeemed via accepting God's grace through exercising their God-given faith to repent of ignoring GW and to believe in Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and they remain redeemed as long as they do not repudiate saving faith.

Here is a song celebrating being redeemed: https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/redeemed

Actually... We do not accept God's grace while He is drawing us.
We must accept God's thinking, while grace is enabling us to consider them.

God's grace is His power that 'enables.'
Enables those who would otherwise be powerless to do what Grace enables us to do.

2 Corinthians 12:9

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

For, without grace ? Our flesh would never allow us to believe what God desires for us to know.

Grace and peace!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Actually... We do not accept God's grace while He is drawing us.
We must accept God's thinking, while grace is enabling us to consider them.

God's grace is His power that 'enables.'
Enables those who would otherwise be powerless to do what Grace enables us to do.

2 Corinthians 12:9

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

For, without grace ? Our flesh would never allow us to believe what God desires for us to know.

Grace and peace!

the grace of God ...

Titus 2:11-12

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world


... that some ignore/reject does not mean the grace of God did not appear to them ... it just means they ignored/rejected the instruction ...

.

 

[sawdust]

There is lots of evidence that angels and demons are two different entities, however unless you are willing to question your assumptions, you will never see it. The Hebrew recognizes a difference, the Greek less so in one sense but in another sense recognizes a big difference.

The Book of Enoch is interesting, but I agree with the scholars who believe that Paul specifically excluded that work from qualifying as scripture. If that is the correct understanding, it is a rare statement about what specifically is or is not scripture that has a clear apostolic basis. 2 Timothy 3:16 makes a statement about what is true about scripture. but not about what qualifies.

Again, all you are doing is making claims but bring no receipts to the table. What makes you think I base my beliefs on assumptions? That in itself is an assumption on your part.

If you have nothing, I see no point in continuing.

Have a good one.

 

[rewriter]

Again, all you are doing is making claims but bring no receipts to the table. What makes you think I base my beliefs on assumptions? That in itself is an assumption on your part.

If you have nothing, I see no point in continuing.

Have a good one.

Why does the Bible never refer to demons as "fallen", but only "unclean".

As for knowing you make assumptions, some assumptions are rather obvious. You follow man's traditions and interpret the Bible as you have been told to, not based on serious study and rethinking assumptions.

 

[sawdust]

Why does the Bible never refer to demons as "fallen", but only "unclean".

As for knowing you make assumptions, some assumptions are rather obvious. You follow man's traditions and interpret the Bible as you have been told to, not based on serious study and rethinking assumptions.

You mean serious study of a collection of writings that don't always agree with the rest of scripture and considered by men who have studied in depth, language, history, textual criticisms etc to be uncanonical?

 

[Genez]

the grace of God ...

Titus 2:11-12

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world


... that some ignore/reject does not mean the grace of God did not appear to them ... it just means they ignored/rejected the instruction ...

.

Here is a prime example OF REJECTING the grace-drawing of God.

The following passage speaks of the most degenerate type people we find in life.
They became degenerate because of rejecting God's drawing of them...

God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness
of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God
is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 1:18-23

 

[Genez]

Why does the Bible never refer to demons as "fallen", but only "unclean".

As for that matter?

Why does the Bible never refer to unbelievers as "fallen" people?

But, we still understand what we are looking at.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Here is a prime example OF REJECTING the grace-drawing of God.

The following passage speaks of the most degenerate type people we find in life.
They became degenerate because of rejecting God's drawing of them...

God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity​

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness
of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God
is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Romans 1:18-23

right ... I generally include Romans 1:16-17 when posting Romans 1:18ff ... the contrast is made so much more glaring ...

Romans 1:16-21

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


We know from vs 16 that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe ...

We know from vs 18 that God's wrath is revealed against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached ... which is why they are without excuse (vs 20)

since the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation ... those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are not afforded the promised salvation ... not because God does not want to save them, but because they reject that which God has provided as the only way to salvation.

.

 

[Kroogz]

There is also no scripture that clearly states that demons are fallen angels.

So show us. Really interested in this subject.


I have asked a few times for your expertise. But it has been lacking so far.

 

[Kroogz]

There is also no scripture that clearly states that demons are fallen angels. And those scriptures that reference fallen angels are relying on scripture that the Protestants do not recognize as scripture. Now you claim that the terms "angel" and "demon" are simple designations of role, not distinct types of entities, would you care to back that up with clear, unambiguous scripture?

You accuse me of making stuff up to suit, yet you seem to be doing the exact same thing.

Now I also trust scripture when it claims that the heavens and earth proclaim God's glory and that what can be known about God is available from the creation, thus I use the creation to comprehend difficult and/or ambiguous statements in the Protestant scriptures, as well as other scriptures recognized by Christians (Protestants like to claim a lock on proper scripture, but that is a purely human claim, not supported by scripture, only by circular arguments). But why then do you retreat to a RCC position of elevating tradition to a level equal with scripture to defend your chosen stance, even if you do not directly claim tradition, but merely use its arguments.

There seems to be a "level playing field" SET. And if the angels deviate from that playing field There are differing consequences.

There are angels locked in chains and Stan(Satan) is running around mucking everything up.

 

[bytheblood]

You said they are not born again, that is being spiritually dead.

You claimed being born again is a revitalisation of the spirit to connect to God.

Well? Alive to God or not? Spiritually alive or spiritually dead? Do you even know what it means?

I don't think you have a clue.

David had a spirit because he was born again, this is how He could receive the things of the Spirit and know the Lord God.

You don't even listen. You think by my reckoning God must have put a flawed spirit in him? I have stated categorically He cannot which, is why we are not born with a spirit as only God can generate the human spirit. This is why we must be born again. First time physically, second time spiritually. Not two births spiritually which, is what you intimate with your born "again" insistence.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus who only had the OT at the time, yet Christ expected him to understand what he was talking about. So your excuse is not lack of evidence, it is lack of understanding.

More justification of self I see and I'm not your brother.

Then you are lost and, like it or not, I prayed for you. Again, when you were dead in trespasses and sins how did God draw you to Himself? Since YOU didn't have a spirit, and were a carnal, natural, fleshly man, did He connect with your natural soul? Oh yeah, the natural man CAN'T receive anything from the Lord, they are foolishness unto him. So how Sawdie, how did God, who is Spirit, connect with your fleshly natural self. Oh yeah, that's right, the flesh is enmity against God " Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: FOR IT IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE." Rom. 8:7. It's clear that God connects with mans spirit, not his fleshly, carnal, natural self. Spirit to spirit, flesh to flesh.

 

[bytheblood]

Why did you say that?

Man is naturally born soul and body.
No human spirit until born again.

It is the human spirit that connects our soul with God.
It is with our soul that we believe.
God saves our soul.

For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned ​

to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25​

​

Not.... Shepherd and Overseer of your spirits.​

​

I have only bumped into A VERY few who think what you do.
And, always wondered why you do.

For the Bible does not teach it.

I don't feel like posting it again, so read what I posted to to your bromance Sawdie. Dead doesn't mean nonexistent. I had a "dead " battery but when I gave it a hot shot it was no longer" dead ", just "dead" to the purposes intended.

 

[sawdust]

Then you are lost and, like it or not, I prayed for you. Again, when you were dead in trespasses and sins how did God draw you to Himself? Since YOU didn't have a spirit, and were a carnal, natural, fleshly man, did He connect with your natural soul? Oh yeah, the natural man CAN'T receive anything from the Lord, they are foolishness unto him. So how Sawdie, how did God, who is Spirit, connect with your fleshly natural self. Oh yeah, that's right, the flesh is enmity against God " Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: FOR IT IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE." Rom. 8:7. It's clear that God connects with mans spirit, not his fleshly, carnal, natural self. Spirit to spirit, flesh to flesh.

I've already answered this. It is obvious you don't listen to people.

You need a spirit to understand spiritual matters.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

You won't believe, so I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

Have a nice day.

 

[sawdust]

I don't feel like posting it again, so read what I posted to to your bromance Sawdie. Dead doesn't mean nonexistent. I had a "dead " battery but when I gave it a hot shot it was no longer" dead ", just "dead" to the purposes intended.

Bromance? You don't listen and you don't think. I already corrected you but it went right over your head.

 

[bytheblood]

John 3:3~~Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:7~~~Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 3:9~~Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

John 3:10~~Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?

Seems even the teachers and students of today don't understand these things. Don't be a modern Nicodemus.

Those scriptures only prove what was coming. Since no reference to being born again is found in the OT, there is no wonder that Nicodemus was amazed. " Behold I will do a NEW THING; now it shall spring forth: shall YOU NOT KNOW IT? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert." Isaiah 43:19. " For this is the covenant I WILL MAKE with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: for ALL shall know Me, from the least to the greatest." Heb 8:10-11. The kingdom of God is where God rules and reigns, " Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there! for, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21 That aspect of the kingdom of God you can't see, but God's kingdom in heaven you can, and that's what Jesus is referring to.