T
TruthDefender
Guest
Yet, Jesus healed ALL who were sick.
“But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.”
Matthew 12:15 NKJV
Is cessation an observation or theology?
- Thread starter Lamar
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“But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.”
Matthew 12:15 NKJV
I think we agree with the verse, but not all of us re-read it to say 'they have ceased.... it has vanished away....'
T
TruthDefender
Guest
None of the claims of the Pentecostal movement can be called New Testament healings.
You are labeling the mundane as works of the Holy Spirit.
You will regret and be ashamed of your words when the real healings of the Holy Spirit return.
Tell me about your beliefs on 'real healings' returning. Where does the Bible teach real healings left and then others returned.
If you are sick, and you pray for healing and God answers your prayer healing you in two days, isn't that a 'real healing' if God answered your prayer? God is also responsible for all the natural processes that heals people and animals.
Matthew reported that Jesus, on that occasion, healed all those who were following Him seeking His help. However, He did not ALWAYS heal EVERYONE. At least once, the Bible said this:
54 Coming to His hometown, He [Jesus] taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph,g Simon, and Judas? 56 Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.”
58 And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.
(Matthew 13:54-58)
In the same book, Jesus asked the crowds why Elijah, who knew how to be used by God to do miraculous works did not USE his anointing to heal ALL the OTHER widows in Israel but went instead to see a Sidonian woman
25 But I tell you truthfully that there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and great famine swept over all the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to the widow of Zarephath in Sidon.…
(Luke 4:25-26)
God's purpose is not simply to eradicate diseases or even to draw crowds but to redeem people and bring them closer to God.
This is why Jesus did not ordinarily respond to skeptics like King Herod who simply wanted to experience the thrill of seeing miracles:
8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was greatly pleased. He had wanted to see Him for a long time, BECAUSE he had heard about Him and was hoping to see Him perform a miracle. 9 Herod questioned Jesus at great length, but He gave no answer.…(Luke 23:8)
Jesus did not always heal everyone in His audience. You have vastly over-extended Matthew 12:15 to include every person on every occasion. What makes you think God has to always heal everyone? As far as I can tell every healing is individually gift-wrapped to maximize the impact on the individuals involved. Thus one person was told to wash in the pool, while another was told to go home and their servant would be healed based only on Jesus word.
Presidente,
Do you believe people cannot see through your words? You are fooling no one.
This is about the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit as were being done during the times of the New Testament.
You cannot be so dense as to not see your error. You are simply trying to pull the wool over the eyes of those already blind, nothing more.
This debate is not about the natural clotting of blood!!!
The natural ability for our bodies to heal is not a supernatural manifestation!
I am 99% sure you are the one who was pushing Mahesh Chavda and Delia Knox as evidence of the claims of Pentecostals.
Mr. Chavda has never produced to this day any of the people he has claimed to have brought back from the dead.
Mrs. Knox is still in recovery from her brain injury and can only walk for a short time before being put back into a wheel chair.
Again, you are only fooling those who want to be fooled.
Have you no shame.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
I thought to bring up Matt 13:57 and see the perfect opening for it placed here with the reference spelled out right before me. 
"And they took offense at Him..." where 'offense' is 'skandalizo' which is summarized as a falling away. And there's nobody who argues that isn't currently happening.
"And they took offense at Him..." where 'offense' is 'skandalizo' which is summarized as a falling away. And there's nobody who argues that isn't currently happening.
Hello Lamar. I was in a Pentecostal Church for eight years, I also visited other Charismatic leaning Churches during that time. I think the style might have a lot to do with it, in my experience it's exuberant loud worship and the same in preaching style, that some might label sensationalist. One of the last meetings I attended the Pastor stood up and almost in tears said he praised God for the mighty works being done amongst us. I asked another member what the mighty works were and he shrugged, I asked the Pastor after the meeting and he put his arm round my shoulders but didn't pinpoint what the mighty works were. I believe they also had a doctrine called 'act as if', or as the world might say fake it til you make it. I just couldn't hack the dystopian nature of it anymore. Sadly a few years down the line that church closed due to low numbers. I believe there can be genuine miracles and prophecies in a church, but I think sometimes the sensationalist style in some quarters can act against it, as you have to take much of what they say with a pinch of salt and eventually regular unsubstantiated or fantastical claims can lead to disillusionment. God Bless
You are just being obnoxious here, as you have been throughout the thread. I would prefer an intellectually honest conversation where we discuss issues, rather than where one person tries to 'win' by ad hominem style attacks, trying to impugn the other's motives.
My post was straightforward. We should be thankful to God for mundane healings, since He created the processes, in addition to the supernatural healings, and if there is anything in between, be thankful for that as well. That is not dishonesty.
I didn't say whether I thought Mahesh Chavda's claims were true or not, but I did ask if you had researched his claims. He had a picture of a death certificate of someone in one of the meetings. I asked if you had researched the claims. Have you, or do you just dismiss them.
Some miracles seems very rare, but discounting all claims of healings, even resurrections from the dead, in the modern age rests on nothing in the Bible at all. Your assumption that they all must be fake, and refusal to investigate them. I've met people who will tell of being healed of certain things, and I've prayed for people and laid hands on them and they reported back that they were healed, gave the doctor report we prayed for, etc. I've seen people lay hands on someone for hearing problems and the person said they were healed, but I can't see whether they hear or not.
I have also told of the one visibly obvious evidence of healing that I've seen.... the girl in middle school with the severely crossed eyes and 'coke bottle' glasses that made her eyes look big as she wore them... who was healed after an evangelist laid hands on her.
I think preachers who minister to the sick and see miracles are not very good about collecting testimonies in general and having them examined. Of course, most have no research methods training, since that is not their area. I have heard of an organization that is working on collecting testimonies of such things. I also conversed with someone on Randy Clark's dissertation committee, but I haven't read his dissertation.
Maybe he was talking about people getting saved.Hello Lamar. I was in a Pentecostal Church for eight years, I also visited other Charismatic leaning Churches during that time. I think the style might have a lot to do with it, in my experience it's exuberant loud worship and the same in preaching style, that some might label sensationalist. One of the last meetings I attended the Pastor stood up and almost in tears said he praised God for the mighty works being done amongst us. I asked another member what the mighty works were and he shrugged, I asked the Pastor after the meeting and he put his arm round my shoulders but didn't pinpoint what the mighty works were. I believe they also had a doctrine called 'act as if', or as the world might say fake it til you make it. I just couldn't hack the dystopian nature of it anymore. Sadly a few years down the line that church closed due to low numbers. I believe there can be genuine miracles and prophecies in a church, but I think sometimes the sensationalist style in some quarters can act against it, as you have to take much of what they say with a pinch of salt and eventually regular unsubstantiated or fantastical claims can lead to disillusionment. God Bless
Btw, I can't think of any scripture off the top of my head that says that the Holy Spirit is involved specifically in mundane healing, but if scripture is silent on the matter, I would find it incredibly foolish to argue that He is not.
Psalm 107:20 says
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Now if the Debar, the Logos is involved in healing, it does not follow that the Holy Spirit is necessarily NOT involved in healing.
I find it theologically reckless to make such assertions without Biblical evidence.
@Lamar @TrustandObey
Psalm 107:20 says
He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
Now if the Debar, the Logos is involved in healing, it does not follow that the Holy Spirit is necessarily NOT involved in healing.
I find it theologically reckless to make such assertions without Biblical evidence.
@Lamar @TrustandObey
Actually your answer proves either you have not read how they worship or you don't want it to be made known that it's in the Bible for others to read and see for themselves.
But the brass knuckles to Continuation comes directly from Paul.
He writes he only Speaks in Tongues in Church whenever Interpretation takes place because it's the edification of the Saints but specifically for those not saved.
But then....
He writes...
I speak in Tongues more than anyone else.
We know he is not doing this in Church because no interpretation.
That means he does it daily in his personal prayers and he does it so much he is bragging about it.
He writes he only Speaks in Tongues in Church whenever Interpretation takes place because it's the edification of the Saints but specifically for those not saved.
But then....
He writes...
I speak in Tongues more than anyone else.
We know he is not doing this in Church because no interpretation.
That means he does it daily in his personal prayers and he does it so much he is bragging about it.
I didn't ask where the contradiction was, you had already stated in was in my last sentence, I asked how is it contradictory?