Was Mary Sinless?

[bytheblood]

I've already answered this. It is obvious you don't listen to people.

You need a spirit to understand spiritual matters.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

You won't believe, so I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

Have a nice day.

So when God drew you, spiritually, and you had no spirit, how did He reach you? I won't blame you for quitting, you don't have an answer that makes sense. Good night )

 

[Genez]

So when God drew you, spiritually, and you had no spirit, how did He reach you? I won't blame you for quitting, you don't have an answer that makes sense. Good night )

The Holy Spirit takes up the slack for the lack of a human spirit while drawing men.

Here is an example of that....

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters
of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all
whom they chose.

And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh;
yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Genesis 6:1-3

 

[bytheblood]

Those scriptures only prove what was coming. Since no reference to being born again is found in the OT, there is no wonder that Nicodemus was amazed. " Behold I will do a NEW THING; now it shall spring forth: shall YOU NOT KNOW IT? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert." Isaiah 43:19. " For this is the covenant I WILL MAKE with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: for ALL shall know Me, from the least to the greatest." Heb 8:10-11. The kingdom of God is where God rules and reigns, " Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there! for, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21 That aspect of the kingdom of God you can't see, but God's kingdom in heaven you can, and that's what Jesus is referring to.

The Holy Spirit takes up the slack for the lack of a human spirit while drawing men.

Here is an example of that....

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters
of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all
whom they chose.

And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh;
yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Genesis 6:1-3

You're REALLY reaching now )) Then, seemingly, man is just flesh, not spirit OR soul, is that what you're pointing out? Man was OPERATING only by his carnal flesh and not responding to the Spirits trying to lead mans spirit.

 

[Genez]

You're REALLY reaching now )) Then, seemingly, man is just flesh, not spirit OR soul, is that what you're pointing out? Man was OPERATING only by his carnal flesh and not responding to the Spirits trying to lead mans spirit.

Good bye.... IGNORE.

I am done with you inane way of thinking.

 

[sawdust]

So when God drew you, spiritually, and you had no spirit, how did He reach you? I won't blame you for quitting, you don't have an answer that makes sense. Good night )

My answer didn't make sense to you. That is hardly my fault.

Read the verse and try to understand what it means. Think of the parables of Jesus and the things He spoke of, ordinary, every day events. He spoke of earthly things, not spiritual things. It is not until one is born again that one understands spiritual things therefore, it is not the spiritual things God uses to draw us to Him.

 

[sawdust]

Since no reference to being born again is found in the OT, there is no wonder that Nicodemus was amazed.

Once again you show yourself not to listen. Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand he had to be born again and he only had the OT scriptures to go by. It was Jesus who was amazed, not Nicodemus.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

You should know these things Nicodemus!

 

[Genez]

Once again you show yourself not to listen. Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand he had to be born again and he only had the OT scriptures to go by. It was Jesus who was amazed, not Nicodemus.

John 3:10
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

You should know these things Nicodemus!

I would not be surprised if he can understand.
That he really desires to disrupt and prevent others from seeing the Word of God being clarified.

We have to start thinking in those terms, because we know that many Bible believing Christians have no problem with some things
some here wish to make look hard to understand.

.......

 

[rewriter]

So show us. Really interested in this subject.


I have asked a few times for your expertise. But it has been lacking so far.

Might I inquire as to what your serious interest is in this matter? I already know that there are too many in this forum who would simply scoff at the knowledge and thereby potentially encounter a very serious lesson that they really do not want.

As for me, a good bit of my education on this matter came via an official regional police task force that was created to deal with certain issues well outside normal parameters, but what does hands on experience matter when one can read everything they think they need to know and possibly misinterpret what they read.

 

[Genez]

Now I also trust scripture when it claims that the heavens and earth proclaim God's glory and that what can be known about God is available from the creation, thus I use the creation to comprehend difficult and/or ambiguous statements in the Protestant scriptures, as well as other scriptures recognized by Christians (Protestants like to claim a lock on proper scripture, but that is a purely human claim, not supported by scripture, only by circular arguments). But why then do you retreat to a RCC position of elevating tradition to a level equal with scripture to defend your chosen stance, even if you do not directly claim tradition, but merely use its arguments.

Just to clarify where you stand?

Are you a Christian?
Or do you have an interest in studying Christians?
I ask that since, from your words, to appear to be neither Protestant, nor Catholic.

For you wrote...

Now I also trust scripture when it claims that the heavens and earth proclaim God's glory and that what can be known about God is available from the creation, thus I use the creation to comprehend difficult and/or ambiguous statements in the Protestant scriptures, as well as other scriptures recognized by Christians (Protestants like to claim a lock on proper scripture, but that is a purely human claim, not supported by scripture, only by circular arguments). But why then do you retreat to a RCC position of elevating tradition to a level equal with scripture to defend your chosen stance, even if you do not directly claim tradition, but merely use its arguments.

You sound like somebody who is simply a student of religion.

Is that a correct assumption?

 

[rewriter]

Just to clarify where you stand?

Are you a Christian?
Or do you have an interest in studying Christians?
I ask that since, from your words, to appear to be neither Protestant, nor Catholic.

For you wrote...

Now I also trust scripture when it claims that the heavens and earth proclaim God's glory and that what can be known about God is available from the creation, thus I use the creation to comprehend difficult and/or ambiguous statements in the Protestant scriptures, as well as other scriptures recognized by Christians (Protestants like to claim a lock on proper scripture, but that is a purely human claim, not supported by scripture, only by circular arguments). But why then do you retreat to a RCC position of elevating tradition to a level equal with scripture to defend your chosen stance, even if you do not directly claim tradition, but merely use its arguments.

You sound like somebody who is simply a student of religion.

Is that a correct assumption?

You are quite right that I am neither Protestant nor Catholic. Rather I am a Christian who has studied long and hard enough to recognize that both groups have the exact same foundational assumptions and that there is good reason to challenge said assumptions. To follow my logic, one must be aware of a lot of available knowledge, the first 40 8 1/2x11 pages of my writing is just to provide the beginnings of said knowledge and point out how it impacts our understanding of just one letter in the NT. But so far, most who have read those pages proclaim that I make far more sense than any other biblical scholar they have ever read, and most of those people are biblical scholars themselves. The few who want to argue do not attack my arguments directly, they just point out that I am attacking roughly 2000 years of tradition and that such a history of tradition must be correct.

One key point, 1st century writers followed certain rules for their writings if they wished the writings to be judged worth reading by the general public, including believers. Tradition correctly recognizes that the letters and Revelation follow those rules, but when it comes to the gospels and Acts, those general rules must have been ignored as these works are so different. I find (as do most scholars) that Matthew and Luke are Greco-Roman biographies and tend to follow those rules. Mark and John are different and scholars struggle to place them as to what rules they follow. They also largely seek to separate Luke-Acts as two different (in style yes) separable works, while I treat them as a two-part series with an overarching theme and a single template. But this approach requires changing many assumptions, including some about the letters, but changes that can be supported by the Greek grammar. One of these grammatical changes implies a conscious and deliberate attempt to conceal facts from outsiders. If tradition follows the path laid out for outsiders, the true message gets lost while the cover message becomes tradition and "truth".

 

[Genez]

You are quite right that I am neither Protestant nor Catholic. Rather I am a Christian who has studied long and hard enough to recognize that both groups have the exact same foundational assumptions and that there is good reason to challenge said assumptions.

Could you please help us out, and tell us specifically what those foundational assumptions are?
For what you stated only left me assuming without knowing.

 

[rewriter]

Could you please help us out, and tell us specifically what those foundational assumptions are?
For what you stated only left me assuming without knowing.

One key foundational assumption is that the historic accounts of the gospels and Acts are history in a 21st century sense of the word instead of in a `1st century sense. In the 1st century, historical events and speeches could be invented to deliver the desired message, in today's understanding, the actual events and words are to be presented without consideration of delivering a specific message.

If the gospels Acts were written to establish that Paul did nothing wrong, as opposed to what actually occurred, it becomes very easy to link women's hair in Corinth, the armor of God in Ephesians and 2 Timothy 3:!6, among other Pauline passages to John And it also suddenly becomes possible to identify who Theophilus was, if Luke and Acts were written to deliver a message, there is only one candidate. Now if they were written to accurately express historic events many mysteries remain.

 

[Genez]

One key foundational assumption is that the historic accounts of the gospels and Acts are history in a 21st century sense of the word instead of in a `1st century sense. In the 1st century, historical events and speeches could be invented to deliver the desired message, in today's understanding, the actual events and words are to be presented without consideration of delivering a specific message.

I know exactly what you are talking about.
My Pastor taught us about isagogics.

Isagogics is the branch of theological study that serves as an introduction to the Bible. Derived from the Greek word eisagoge (meaning "to lead into"), it provides the necessary historical and literary background for a specific biblical book before diving into textual interpretation (exegesis).

He always taught us that way.
Teaching his congregation 6 nights a week!
We learned about various ways of Greek syntax, and Greek and Hebrew idiosyncrasies we do not think with today.
He wanted to show us how it was being understood by people at the time it was written.

He would also take us back to the time the OT was written.

He was a rare gem and a great blessing for those who sensed it was the needed way to be taught.

Besides teaching six nights a week?
He on average studied 8 hours a day.
He loved to discover what has been buried in the original languages.

After all that work?
The ministry will not ask for money for anyone interesting learning from his teaching.

You can check it out here: https://rbthieme.org/about-us

Grace and peace.....

 

[bytheblood]

My answer didn't make sense to you. That is hardly my fault.

Read the verse and try to understand what it means. Think of the parables of Jesus and the things He spoke of, ordinary, every day events. He spoke of earthly things, not spiritual things. It is not until one is born again that one understands spiritual things therefore, it is not the spiritual things God uses to draw us to Him.

When I confessed Christ as my personal Savior it was through the preaching of the Gospel, the Word of God. " It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life ." John 6:63. The Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the Gospel, the Word of God, quickened ( brought BACK to life or RESTORED vitality to) my spirit, not my carnal, fleshly soul, with spiritual words, the Word of God. Yet you say that " it is not spiritual things God uses to draw us to Him." It is ONLY spiritual things God uses to draw us to Himself. You can't be saved any other way but spiritually, first. It's true that I didn't understand, with my fleshly, carnal mind, at that time, so it was by my spirit that I was drawn to Christ, realizing, at 12 yrs. old, that I needed a Savior, although my carnal soul was reluctant. After I received Jesus as my Savior, my spirit, being quickened (brought BACK to life), and through reading and meditating on the Word of God, and being taught of it, it was then I could begin to understand spiritual things and begin to renew my mind from it's carnal state. Creation itself doesn't draw men to confess Christ, it shows His handiwork in all of it's splendor and it testifies that HE IS, but people first are drawn to Christ spiritually, not through the carnal, fleshly soul.

 

[sawdust]

When I confessed Christ as my personal Savior it was through the preaching of the Gospel, the Word of God. " It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life ." John 6:63. The Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the Gospel, the Word of God, quickened ( brought BACK to life or RESTORED vitality to) my spirit, not my carnal, fleshly soul, with spiritual words, the Word of God. Yet you say that " it is not spiritual things God uses to draw us to Him." It is ONLY spiritual things God uses to draw us to Himself. You can't be saved any other way but spiritually, first. It's true that I didn't understand, with my fleshly, carnal mind, at that time, so it was by my spirit that I was drawn to Christ, realizing, at 12 yrs. old, that I needed a Savior, although my carnal soul was reluctant. After I received Jesus as my Savior, my spirit, being quickened (brought BACK to life), and through reading and meditating on the Word of God, and being taught of it, it was then I could begin to understand spiritual things and begin to renew my mind from it's carnal state. Creation itself doesn't draw men to confess Christ, it shows His handiwork in all of it's splendor and it testifies that HE IS, but people first are drawn to Christ spiritually, not through the carnal, fleshly soul.

You just blindly walked into Christ one day without any conscious understanding of what you were doing?

The drawing process is the road to the Gospel, it is not the Gospel itself. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Rom.1:16

You still think you got your spirit from your parents or from God and if from God, explain why did He give you a dead spirit in the first place that needed fixing? You even admit the flesh profits nothing but still insist we are born with a dead spirit that somehow is generated through the flesh.

Our carnality is in our body (flesh) which deceives the mind to think in terms of carnality but the sin nature itself is not in our soul (mind) which, is why our souls can be redeemed. Rom.7:23

And the bit I bolded in your post?
That is why He speaks to us of earthly things first to draw us in because we can understand earthly things.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things (and He did) and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

It appears you cannot understand the earthly things. A dead birth is not a birth.

 

[rewriter]

I know exactly what you are talking about.
My Pastor taught us about isagogics.

Isagogics is the branch of theological study that serves as an introduction to the Bible. Derived from the Greek word eisagoge (meaning "to lead into"), it provides the necessary historical and literary background for a specific biblical book before diving into textual interpretation (exegesis).

He always taught us that way.
Teaching his congregation 6 nights a week!
We learned about various ways of Greek syntax, and Greek and Hebrew idiosyncrasies we do not think with today.
He wanted to show us how it was being understood by people at the time it was written.

He would also take us back to the time the OT was written.

He was a rare gem and a great blessing for those who sensed it was the needed way to be taught.

Besides teaching six nights a week?
He on average studied 8 hours a day.
He loved to discover what has been buried in the original languages.

After all that work?
The ministry will not ask for money for anyone interesting learning from his teaching.

You can check it out here: https://rbthieme.org/about-us

Grace and peace.....

You present a good understanding. Two of my basic assumptions that some people have major problems with are: that the Bible presents the truth as opposed to being literal truth. Many claim the Bible is literally true in places but not others and differ about which is which. I am just looser as to how much is literally true and how much was presented so that the truth might be known. as the literal truth is beyond human expression. Second is that if one perceives scripture and science as being in opposition, then that individual is misunderstanding at least one of the two fields.

 

[Genez]

You present a good understanding. Two of my basic assumptions that some people have major problems with are: that the Bible presents the truth as opposed to being literal truth. Many claim the Bible is literally true in places but not others and differ about which is which. I am just looser as to how much is literally true and how much was presented so that the truth might be known. as the literal truth is beyond human expression. Second is that if one perceives scripture and science as being in opposition, then that individual is misunderstanding at least one of the two fields.

For many... They can understand things found in the Bible.
But, not the Bible.
Many have yet to understand the Bible.

That requires a truly good teacher.

 

[RedLetterJoe]

She had a lot less sin than your average Joe, but sinless? No. She was just as much in need of a Savior as everyone else. The fact that she was Gods chosen vessel reflects on her character I would suspect, and she would have certainly been an exceptional young lady. Her response to the Angel telling her that she would give birth to the Messiah, versus the response given by Zecharias to the news about Elizabeth, being a good example.

 

[bytheblood]

You just blindly walked into Christ one day without any conscious understanding of what you were doing?

The drawing process is the road to the Gospel, it is not the Gospel itself. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Rom.1:16

You still think you got your spirit from your parents or from God and if from God, explain why did He give you a dead spirit in the first place that needed fixing? You even admit the flesh profits nothing but still insist we are born with a dead spirit that somehow is generated through the flesh.

Our carnality is in our body (flesh) which deceives the mind to think in terms of carnality but the sin nature itself is not in our soul (mind) which, is why our souls can be redeemed. Rom.7:23

And the bit I bolded in your post?
That is why He speaks to us of earthly things first to draw us in because we can understand earthly things.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things (and He did) and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

It appears you cannot understand the earthly things. A dead birth is not a birth.

" You just blindly walked into Christ one day without any conscious understanding of what you were doing?" There is so much misunderstanding in your statements I don't know where to begin. Sawdie, I HEARD ( faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Rom 10:17), the gospel (which is Spirit), was convicted in my spirit, yet reluctant in my soul( to which the Gospel is, or was at that time, foolishness) and followed the leading of my convicted spirit to receive Christ as my Savior (" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God THEY are the sons of God. Rom. 8:14) Again, when the scriptures say that we were " dead in trespasses and sins" in means that because we all, except for Jesus of course were, " shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psm 51:5, our spirits ( not you, you didn't have one) were deadened to the things of God. Since you think I don't understand earthly things let me try this again. One day I went to start my car, the radio played and the lights came on but it wouldn't start. I called AAA and after a delay they came and looked over the situation. He then gave me a hotshot and, voila , it started. I had a dead battery, it was still there, but it wasn't operating in the power of it's intended purpose. When I got the hotshot the battery was REGENERATED, or you could say BORN AGAIN. My spirit was REGENERATED, just as the battery, by the hotshot of the hearing and receiving of the Gospel. My un-regenerated spirit, it was still there, had enough power to play the radio and turn on the lights( hear and be convicted by the Gospel ) not but the power to operate in it's intended purpose That's as close an earthly parallel I can draw to explain to you what occurred when I got born again. The body NEVER leads, only follows , it only sends signals to our minds. If your heater were to break down in the winter while you were sleep your body would send a signal that it was colder. Your mind would be the deciding factor to try to fix the issue, if you would get another cover, put more PJs on or call the repair man. If you had a sudden, sharp pain your body is sending a signal that something is amiss, your mind than decides either to get medication or go to the doctor. Our bodies are either led by our souls or our spirits( see Rom. 8:14 above), it decides NOTHING. Carnality is a mindset, those who have not received Christ as Savior think carnally( fleshly ) only, the more the Christian renews our minds by taking God's thoughts as their own, the less carnal (fleshly) we become. That way we begin to fulfill the thoughts and plans God had for us from the foundation of the world. " For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." Jer. 29:11 We live by way of our dominate thoughts.

 

[sawdust]

" You just blindly walked into Christ one day without any conscious understanding of what you were doing?" There is so much misunderstanding in your statements I don't know where to begin. Sawdie, I HEARD ( faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Rom 10:17), the gospel (which is Spirit), was convicted in my spirit, yet reluctant in my soul( to which the Gospel is, or was at that time, foolishness) and followed the leading of my convicted spirit to receive Christ as my Savior (" For as many as are led by the Spirit of God THEY are the sons of God. Rom. 8:14) Again, when the scriptures say that we were " dead in trespasses and sins" in means that because we all, except for Jesus of course were, " shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psm 51:5, our spirits ( not you, you didn't have one) were deadened to the things of God. Since you think I don't understand earthly things let me try this again. One day I went to start my car, the radio played and the lights came on but it wouldn't start. I called AAA and after a delay they came and looked over the situation. He then gave me a hotshot and, voila , it started. I had a dead battery, it was still there, but it wasn't operating in the power of it's intended purpose. When I got the hotshot the battery was REGENERATED, or you could say BORN AGAIN. My spirit was REGENERATED, just as the battery, by the hotshot of the hearing and receiving of the Gospel. My un-regenerated spirit, it was still there, had enough power to play the radio and turn on the lights( hear and be convicted by the Gospel ) not but the power to operate in it's intended purpose That's as close an earthly parallel I can draw to explain to you what occurred when I got born again. The body NEVER leads, only follows , it only sends signals to our minds. If your heater were to break down in the winter while you were sleep your body would send a signal that it was colder. Your mind would be the deciding factor to try to fix the issue, if you would get another cover, put more PJs on or call the repair man. If you had a sudden, sharp pain your body is sending a signal that something is amiss, your mind than decides either to get medication or go to the doctor. Our bodies are either led by our souls or our spirits( see Rom. 8:14 above), it decides NOTHING. Carnality is a mindset, those who have not received Christ as Savior think carnally( fleshly ) only, the more the Christian renews our minds by taking God's thoughts as their own, the less carnal (fleshly) we become. That way we begin to fulfill the thoughts and plans God had for us from the foundation of the world. " For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." Jer. 29:11 We live by way of our dominate thoughts.

I am not misunderstanding what you say. You simply fail to stick to the actual topic. We were talking about being drawn to God. Hearing the Gospel is not the drawing process, it is the destination of the journey. You had no idea where where you were being led or who was leading you until you reached the light, who is Christ, then you heard the Gospel. Until that moment you simply understood there were things that made more sense one way because it was reflected in the very nature of things around you.

Again you speak of an unregenerated spirit but fail to recognise our spirits are only given by God, no-one else. They are not created through biological generation. Flesh only gives birth to flesh. You refuse to deal with this and because you continue to ignore that our spirits are given only by God, you must logically attribute to Him either giving dead spirits or you must acknowledge that the sin nature within is greater in power than the spirit God gives and if that were the case then we are in no better a position after salvation than we were before if our spirits can be corrupted by sin. Our spirits cannot be corrupted which is why no-one is born of God (do not have a spirit) unless they believe the Gospel and being born of God (made spiritually alive) is what saves us from death. Just as being physically dead means having no body, being spiritually dead means having no spirit. It is real simple.