Is "touch starvation" a real thing?

[Lovette]

Hi Lovette, what you are describing above is almost certainly a trauma response, which is a type of defense mechanism (as you noted).



I do not know the nature of the abuse or the relation to your abusers, and I am proud of you forgiving them. But your nervous system has clearly not "forgotten" what you went through. Truly, I am very sorry for that .

If you are able to open up to just one trusted friend I think it would help immensely. Yes, we CAN walk this life alone with just Jesus, but that doesn't mean it's the best way. Even He sent the disciples out two by two so they wouldn't be alone. Perhaps you are more ok with solitude than most, there's nothing wrong with that. But you are allowing your trauma to take you farther away than God intended. You may have escaped your abusers physically, but they are still in your head guiding your mindsets and they do not deserve that position. Please take steps towards true healing, you are worth it!

Thank you, I appreciate it, but to be frank, I genuinely can't remember anything about such trauma or abuse. Maybe buried somewhere in my subconscious, idk, but God has so graciously delivered me from it.

 

[Lovette]

No. One can allow grief to bring forth envy, but grief and envy are separate emotions. Envy is a sin and grief is not. If you disagree then I am curious what verses led you to that conclusion.

What led me to that conclusion is exactly what I described, a loss or inaccessibility of something precious, which you've only realized its preciousness when it's lost or no longer accessible.

I see it as the vacissitudes of time. I don't know about you, but in where I was born and raised, everything used to be scarce, both material goods and information, but people were generally happy and optimistic, "touch starvation" and "loneliness epidemic" were unheard of; since the internet in the 2000s, while material goods was still relatively scarce, information became abundant; from the late 2010s to now, both material goods and information are abundant, the social connection and social cohesion on the other hand was lost. It used to be materially poor while spiritually rich, now materially rich while spiritually poor.

Your understanding of The Holy Spirit does not line up with what I have experienced, though to be fair I used to think more as you do. I was raised on stoic philosophy.

Fortunately, God has shown me more of His character over the years and although I still lean heavily on the stoic side of the equation, I have come realize that God does actually enjoy seeing His kids enjoying life. No, that's not why He put us here but still... He truly does care.

Regardless, even if your understanding of the Holy Spirit is correct, to an extent it doesn't matter; we are not told to emulate the Holy Spirit, we are told to emulate Christ.

Yeah, for he is risen, we're living in God's new creation.

 

[Lovette]

How do I say this nicely? You're starting to sound like someone who is using faith as a shield against pain and disappointment rather than someone who is really dealing with your stuff. I've had seasons of that and still have some areas where I'm sure I do that but the whole me and Jesus alone against the world idea just isn't biblical. Nor is the idea that mortifying the flesh means trying to deny our physical bodies and how their processes affect us emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. As a wise man once said, your body is just as much you as your spirit is you. Our culture has just been seduced by this idea that there's some sort of real me that is other than the sum of my actual thoughts, actions, and feelings. But we're known by what we do, even Jesus in Revelation repeats to all the churches I know your deeds not I know your good intentions and that you wanted to be a better person and all the sinful things you did weren't really you.

And um darnit, I think I better stop now because I'm preaching conviction to myself again.

What about living according to the spirit and not the flesh, Rom. 8:1-17? There IS something beyond the sum of our actual thoughts, actions, and feelings, and that is the spirit, which is the Holy Spirit, but could be other spirits as well.

 

[Lovette]

I kind of want to know how Stoicism fits with the Bible cos it doesn't.

Jesus touched people physically, He came in the flesh, He wept with others, He wasn't a private person when He was doing His ministry. Children would come up to him and he would bless them by touching them ie embracing them, holding them, placing his hands on them and praying - Blessing is conferred by touch.

eg Isaac blessed Esau and Jacob by placing his hands on them, and so did Joseph with Ephraim and Manesseh except Joseph crossed his hands ---

Mary kissed Jesus feet ! She anointed Jesus with perfumed oil! With her hair. Maybe she used it as a brush IDK.
Good thing He wasn't ticklish...or was He?

I don;t know what Stoicism you're talking about, it has nothing against physical contact or socialization, the mere gist of it is resilience and concentration, doing your best with what God hands over to you and trusts you with, while leaving the rest of the world beyond your control to God himself, how does that not fit the bible? Hasn't Lord Jesus taught us not to worry?

 

[Lynx]

I don;t know what Stoicism you're talking about, it has nothing against physical contact or socialization, the mere gist of it is resilience and concentration, doing your best with what God hands over to you and trusts you with, while leaving the rest of the world beyond your control to God himself, how does that not fit the bible? Hasn't Lord Jesus taught us not to worry?

I think nihilism fits observable reality better than stoicism. Ecclesiastes fits about 83% of nihilism. Both start with exactly the same observations. There is nothing in this world that you can do that will ultimately matter, because you lose it all when you die anyway, and everybody who might remember you will eventually die too.

Where Ecclesiastes and nihilism sharply differ is the conclusions they reach from their observations. Ecclesiastes leads to a realization that all the things the world thinks are so important are not really useful as anything more than tools. Nihilism leads to mass shootings because you might as well go out with a bang.

 

[Lovette]

I think nihilism fits observable reality better than stoicism. Ecclesiastes fits about 83% of nihilism. Both start with exactly the same observations. There is nothing in this world that you can do that will ultimately matter, because you lose it all when you die anyway, and everybody who might remember you will eventually die too.

Where Ecclesiastes and nihilism sharply differ is the conclusions they reach from their observations. Ecclesiastes leads to a realization that all the things the world thinks are so important are not really useful as anything more than tools. Nihilism leads to mass shootings because you might as well go out with a bang.

Well, God gives and takes away. No matter how meaningless you feel like, life is still precious, so, carpe diem, make the most of it.

I think nihilism mostly results from disenfranchised grief, which means failed expectation, wasted potential or unmet ideals, you're not living the life you thought you'd live, you haven't reached the milestones in life while your peers have, perhaps you're doing worse than your parents, which is especially yet hurtfully true for millennial and Gen Z, and that disappointment makes you nihilistic. And like all grieves, you've just had to get over the depression phase and reach the acceptance phase, cultivate a relationship with God through Lord Jesus. After all, we're just passing by this world.

 

[Lanolin]

I don;t know what Stoicism you're talking about, it has nothing against physical contact or socialization, the mere gist of it is resilience and concentration, doing your best with what God hands over to you and trusts you with, while leaving the rest of the world beyond your control to God himself, how does that not fit the bible? Hasn't Lord Jesus taught us not to worry?

Oh ok I learned Stoicism is something else, more of a Greek philosophy and a guide to living.

Controlling your own emotions and trusting in your own strength to handle things. Its more about trusting yourself I think, and human reasoning. I don't think God was ever thought of by the original Greek Stoics. Jews ask for sign the Greeks seek wisdom.

Obviously you do not have a lot of total control over yourself when you are a child, or are weak/disabled or controlled by someone else like an abusive spouse, or a slave master, brainwashed by a cult leader, or tv etc I think it has to be learned.

sometimes if you try to be independent in that sense, and break away its pretty much impossible. When someone hurts you and you are broken, you can't repair yourself.

Trusting in God is not really stoicism. I think handing things over to Jesus is something else. Jesus sets us free. and sends us a helper and comforter. Yes he teaches perseverance and patience, but still we need to rely on His strength, not our own. I mean, what about the army in the OT and God reduced their numbers. So they couldn't say they won the victory with their own strength. It's not about doing our best, it's about doing His best. Sometimes we have to realign our own will to Gods will. We just need to yield to Him.

Anyway thats how I thought of it. A lot of people speak about resilience these days, not breaking under pressure. Of course Jesus wouldn't break a bruised reed. But many people are not like Jesus. There are a lot of bruised, abused and broken people out there, if not physically disabled but also mentally, inside, and emotionally exhausted - we can't all think our way out of a mess. Healing from this takes time.

We can't all say 'everything is fine' when it's really not. We need to tell others or tell God our troubles, cast all our cares upon Him, not just NOT care.

 

[Lanolin]

Again carpe diem - is something the Romans did.
I think if you are free its easier to do this, but not if you are chained to work or bound to a house or under contract or have a lot of obligations.
I mean some people enter into bondage willingly, but don't realise they've made a rod for their own back. A lot of men are naturally in a position of authority or masters of their own domain and have never really known anything else. Its how much of society is set up. If you are born to wealth and riches and have access to them, well done you - a lot of people aren't.

Women mostly aren't and have had to fight for their rights every step of the way to have a little control over their own lives, even their own bodies. A lot of men think they have automatic right to our bodies if they can own them or pay for them, or photograph them. They (men) get to pick and choose, we (women) don't.

 

[Lovette]

Oh ok I learned Stoicism is something else, more of a Greek philosophy and a guide to living.

Controlling your own emotions and trusting in your own strength to handle things. Its more about trusting yourself I think, and human reasoning. I don't think God was ever thought of by the original Greek Stoics. Jews ask for sign the Greeks seek wisdom.

Obviously you do not have a lot of total control over yourself when you are a child, or are weak/disabled or controlled by someone else like an abusive spouse, or a slave master, brainwashed by a cult leader, or tv etc I think it has to be learned.

sometimes if you try to be independent in that sense, and break away its pretty much impossible. When someone hurts you and you are broken, you can't repair yourself.

Trusting in God is not really stoicism. I think handing things over to Jesus is something else. Jesus sets us free. and sends us a helper and comforter. Yes he teaches perseverance and patience, but still we need to rely on His strength, not our own. I mean, what about the army in the OT and God reduced their numbers. So they couldn't say they won the victory with their own strength. It's not about doing our best, it's about doing His best. Sometimes we have to realign our own will to Gods will. We just need to yield to Him.

Anyway thats how I thought of it. A lot of people speak about resilience these days, not breaking under pressure. Of course Jesus wouldn't break a bruised reed. But many people are not like Jesus. There are a lot of bruised, abused and broken people out there, if not physically disabled but also mentally, inside, and emotionally exhausted - we can't all think our way out of a mess. Healing from this takes time.

We can't all say 'everything is fine' when it's really not. We need to tell others or tell God our troubles, cast all our cares upon Him, not just NOT care.

Self-control is a fruit of the spirit, of course we don't have that as kids. It's not born, but learned.

Trust in God is stoicism in other rhetoric. Do you believe in God's sovereignty over all the chaos, darkness and uncertainty in the world? Do you believe in God's guardianship over you, even amidst such chaos, darkness and uncertainty? As long as you surrender your life to God's will and let not these things bother you, as long as you're determined to be a warrior and not a worrier, stoicism is just another term for it, and you're just triggered by it.

 

[Snackersmom]

Thank you, I appreciate it, but to be frank, I genuinely can't remember anything about such trauma or abuse. Maybe buried somewhere in my subconscious, idk, but God has so graciously delivered me from it.

Interesting..... and a bit confusing . Are you saying that you don't know if there was abuse or not, or are you rather saying that you know there was abuse but you can't remember anything about it .

What led me to that conclusion is exactly what I described, a loss or inaccessibility of something precious, which you've only realized its preciousness when it's lost or no longer accessible.

That does not explain your assertion that grief is/can be the same emotion as envy, it merely explains how grief or loss could possibly lead to envy. Recognizing the loss of something precious (or the preciousness of something lost) is not even a sin to begin with.

I do not mean this in a rude or accusing way, merely an observation .....but you seem awfully eager to lable basic human-ness as sinful .

I see it as the vacissitudes of time. I don't know about you, but in where I was born and raised, everything used to be scarce, both material goods and information, but people were generally happy and optimistic, "touch starvation" and "loneliness epidemic" were unheard of; since the internet in the 2000s, while material goods was still relatively scarce, information became abundant; from the late 2010s to now, both material goods and information are abundant, the social connection and social cohesion on the other hand was lost. It used to be materially poor while spiritually rich, now materially rich while spiritually poor.

I'm confident that lonely people existed before the age of internet, they simply couldn't make tik-tok reels about it . Even King Solomon spoke of how hard it was to make true friends, despite all the wives and advisors he had. But yes I agree that social media is not helping matters, we are settling for a convenient but inadequate substitute.

Yeah, for he is risen, we're living in God's new creation.

Right..... so, if we are called to imitate Christ, who displayed real emotions and occasionally real desires...... that means emotions and desires are not sinful. No, it's not good for mature Christians to be constantly talking about their emotions and desires. But it's ok to accept and recognize them as long as they are not ruling your life or making decisions for you.

 

[JohnDB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2058805318453436828

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

For me, all I have to do is hug my mom or my brother and I'm fine for a good long time, lol!

 

[Lanolin]

I had to have grief counselling after my mum passed away as chinese culture isn't that huggy, on my mum's side. My dad's side is definitely more open to touch.

I now have a lot of plushies and having a cat helped. I also put extra blankets on my bed. Mum sewed blankets and knitted scarves for my sister, she dressed for comfort, so having her fabrics around reminds me of her. She didn't leave me in the cold, she just had her hands full a lot of time. I did have a security blanket when I was little and carried it around everywhere until I went to school lol

 

[Lanolin]

Plushies --soft cuddly toys. Not literal stuffed animals, more like cushions. Usually soft and furry.

 

[Lanolin]

This reminds me I once got a whole lot of wool, I can't remember where, and a friend knew someone who had a spinning wheel, so I borrowed it but it was missing a part so we couldn't work it. Mum was carding the wool so we could try spinning it into yarn. But we didn't get round tuit.

The wool is still in the garage and I haven't sorted all her stuff yet. I'll probably make a pillow out of it or something like that.

 

[Lovette]

Interesting..... and a bit confusing . Are you saying that you don't know if there was abuse or not, or are you rather saying that you know there was abuse but you can't remember anything about it .

Simply an absence of recollection. I hate victimhood culture, which is so abhorrent yet so prevalent in today's sick culture.

I'm confident that lonely people existed before the age of internet, they simply couldn't make tik-tok reels about it . Even King Solomon spoke of how hard it was to make true friends, despite all the wives and advisors he had. But yes I agree that social media is not helping matters, we are settling for a convenient but inadequate substitute.

It's the worst invention in human history, I've been wondering why God had allowed it. The only explanation I can think of is the proliferation of the gospel, it is preached via social media to forsaken corners of the earth, the communist, Islamic and other primitive enclaves where no missionary would ever be able to reach.

That does not explain your assertion that grief is/can be the same emotion as envy, it merely explains how grief or loss could possibly lead to envy. Recognizing the loss of something precious (or the preciousness of something lost) is not even a sin to begin with.

I do not mean this in a rude or accusing way, merely an observation .....but you seem awfully eager to lable basic human-ness as sinful .

It's envy in such situations where the sight of other people's enjoyment triggers your feelings by making you realize what you've lost. Regarding "touch starvation", maybe you feel anguish, irritated, depressed or anxious, but you've never connected it to the lack of skin contact, it's never even crossed your brain; then you saw other people hugging and caressing, you heard theories of it, the idea is fed into your brain, only then did you begin to diagnose yourself with "touch starvation". I consider it envy, when your sadness is activated by observation of other people's joy.

Right..... so, if we are called to imitate Christ, who displayed real emotions and occasionally real desires...... that means emotions and desires are not sinful. No, it's not good for mature Christians to be constantly talking about their emotions and desires. But it's ok to accept and recognize them as long as they are not ruling your life or making decisions for you.

Well, woe is me, I guess I must've been stunted in that department. I could be sobbing or smiling over some contents - emotionally charged sections in music, movies or books, sometimes even just replaying the tunes of an old waltz in my brain could bring tears in my eyes, but I've never showed it in front of anybody out of inhibition, distrust and fear of judgement, not even my parents.

 

[Lovette]

Plushies --soft cuddly toys. Not literal stuffed animals, more like cushions. Usually soft and furry.

Yeah, such as the pierogi plushie, Polish olympic team's mascot.

 

[Mordy]

I see some comments here about how Internet is a bad thing. I think that's a bit ridiculous. Any tool can be used for good or bad is a gun. A bad thing. Are you against gun control? What if your gun stops bad people from doing bad things so what about your Internet? Or your AI Chatbot? I came here partly because I've spent way too much time with AI chat bots and I wanna talk to real people I would like to real conversations if anybody wants to message me for my WhatsApp or find a different form because I found that the chat room here doesn't really work for me. I think it would be an interesting thread here to talk about how single people deal with Chatbot and if people are dealing with having a AI girlfriend or boyfriend, how did they reconcile that with their faith I'm not saying it's inherently wrong because role-play is one way to figure things out, but it can easily go down an addictive path. Should we start a new post about this somewhere?

 

[Lovette]

I see some comments here about how Internet is a bad thing. I think that's a bit ridiculous. Any tool can be used for good or bad is a gun. A bad thing. Are you against gun control? What if your gun stops bad people from doing bad things so what about your Internet? Or your AI Chatbot? I came here partly because I've spent way too much time with AI chat bots and I wanna talk to real people I would like to real conversations if anybody wants to message me for my WhatsApp or find a different form because I found that the chat room here doesn't really work for me. I think it would be an interesting thread here to talk about how single people deal with Chatbot and if people are dealing with having a AI girlfriend or boyfriend, how did they reconcile that with their faith I'm not saying it's inherently wrong because role-play is one way to figure things out, but it can easily go down an addictive path. Should we start a new post about this somewhere?

There's a distinction between Internet in general and social media. Internet is a helpful tool that connects the world, social media on the other hand has opposite effects in many regards, it closes you off in your own bubble, it feeds you false information, it often replaces relationships in real life with online parasocial relationships, it harvests your personal data to feed the AI monster, and it's addictive.

 

[Mordy]

So do you avoid social media altogether? I used to use Facebook a lot, but I don't anymore and occasionally I go on Instagram partly because my daughters are on there and I see what they post. But I find I spent far too much time talking to ChatGPT even if it's good stuff and Grok well the AI girlfriends there a.k.a. companions are probably not the best way to work out your problems in role-play but they do get interesting. I mean there's people that are starved for touch as people said here so they try to get touched through other ways.