Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

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The Bible teaches that God chooses the elect before the foundation of the world. A person is not chosen based on what they believe, so no, a person does not need to accept TULIP in order to be saved. In fact the L in TULIP is not true. The Bible doesn't teach Limited Atonement.

I agree that the Bible does not teach limited atonement. I agree that non-acceptance of TULIP or Calvinism in general as presented by some in this forum, does not equate with salvation to the exclusion of others who have accepted Christ without declaring Calvin as the foundational 'teacher' of the gospel.
 
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I studied Calvinism and found it to be the spawn of a murderous reprobate who never really left his Catholic roots.

You have an entire Bible and out of that rich resource you come out with TULIP and reject the fact that Jesus died for all.

As we both believe in Salvation though, do you think a person who does not accept Calvin's teaching is not really saved?

Yes, and how would Calvinists know they were not elect?
They could have no assurance of salvation.
A God who hates some might hate them.
 
Sorry? When did we meet and have that discussion?
it was a generalization. Most everyone in the world is a materialist.
I am forced to really think harde as to why you thought I was actually insinuating He used any force?
I was responding to Post #92 where you said, "God must use force since He does not seem to enquire if the universe desired to be created."
What exactly are you trying to get across? We have many stories in scripture wherein there is no guessing
Critics of Calvinism often caricature God’s sovereignty by saying it turns people into puppets—mindless figures whose strings are yanked by a divine hand. But that objection only works if God and humans operate on the same plane of being, like two agents competing for control of the same will. In that framework, if God acts, the human must be passive; if the human acts freely, God must step back. The “puppet” argument assumes a zero‑sum relationship between divine action and human action, as though God were just a bigger creature overriding a smaller one. But Scripture never presents God as a creature among creatures. It presents Him as the Creator, the One in whom we “live and move and have our being.” A puppet analogy only makes sense if God is a fellow actor inside the world. He isn’t.

The author analogy exposes why the puppet objection collapses. An author does not “force” his characters to act; he writes them. Their choices are real within the story, flowing from their motives, fears, desires, and histories. Yet those same choices are also fully the author’s intention. There is no competition between the author’s will and the character’s will because they exist on different levels of reality. The author’s causation is not the same kind of causation as the character’s. Likewise, God’s sovereignty does not override human agency; it grounds it. We act freely as creatures because God acts freely as Creator. The author analogy preserves both truths at once: God’s complete sovereignty and our genuine responsibility. It shows that the “puppet” objection is not just wrong—it is aimed at the wrong kind of God entirely.
 
I stated the following at the beginning of this thread. Just mentionning it again to clear up an thought that if I don't think Calvinism and TULIP is biblial, it does not automatically mean that I am Arminian with regards to doctrine. I really do not think
we have satisfied scripture with complete comprehension in either direction. BUT I will not agree with Calvinism either along with its often rude proponents and failure to somehow exegete scripture without ignoring much of it.

Of course God knows the beginning from the end and therefore can state who are His chosen. Does He choose those who believe? Or, do we believe because He chooses. I do not think, for all the myriad posts I have read, opinons heard or articles printed, that we can unravel that as well as some seem to think we can.++++++1

However, I see nowhere in scripture where God forces anyone to believe but rather states many times, CHOOSE. Sounds like a choice to me whether or not He knows what choice will be made.

Calvinism is not the gospel found in scripture. We are responsible to follow Christ; God does not force anyone even though at times it may seem like it as we bear the results of our choices. Let us not blame God for our circumstances, but rather seek His face, His mercy and forgiveness and allow Him the throne room in our lives. God treats people as individuals; Jesus died for all.
 
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I was responding to Post #92 where you said, "God must use force since He does not seem to enquire if the universe desired to be created."

Yes I saw that. I thought my slight attempt at humor was expressed in that thought but I guess not. I could hardly see God forcing the universe into existence but, if someone wants to get all existential, then that could be argued.

Perhaps to better understand what I am actually saying rather than trying to understand by my responses to dyed in the wool Calvinists, read my post above this one. (145)

I don't care much for broad brush strokes over what 'everyone' supposedly uses as a defense against Calvinsim. Truthfully, I never think of TULIP or shades of the reformed if no one on this site decides they will take up, once again, the banner of Calvin.
 
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I stated the following at the beginning of this thread. Just mentionning it again to clear up an thought that if I don't think Calvinism and TULIP is biblial, it does not automatically mean that I am Arminian with regards to doctrine. I really do not think
we have satisfied scripture with complete comprehension in either direction. BUT I will not agree with Calvinism either along with its often rude proponents and failure to somehow exegete scripture without ignoring much of it.

Of course God knows the beginning from the end and therefore can state who are His chosen. Does He choose those who believe? Or, do we believe because He chooses. I do not think, for all the myriad posts I have read, opinons heard or articles printed, that we can unravel that as well as some seem to think we can.++++++1

However, I see nowhere in scripture where God forces anyone to believe but rather states many times, CHOOSE. Sounds like a choice to me whether or not He knows what choice will be made.

Calvinism is not the gospel found in scripture. We are responsible to follow Christ; God does not force anyone even though at times it may seem like it as we bear the results of our choices. Let us not blame God for our circumstances, but rather seek His face, His mercy and forgiveness and allow Him the throne room in our lives. God treats people as individuals; Jesus died for all.
I agree with you here. But at the same time, the New Testament is filled with statements that assure the reader that God will never lose any of those whom he has chosen and that his choice is made before they are born. We can't dismiss that aspect of it in my humble opinion.
 
I agree with you here. But at the same time, the New Testament is filled with statements that assure the reader that God will never lose any of those whom he has chosen and that his choice is made before they are born. We can't dismiss that aspect of it in my humble opinion.

Oh there are some wonderful passages that directly assure us our salvation is secured....BUT why ignore any scripture that indicates choice? Anyway, suppertime.
 
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Yes I saw that. I thought my slight attempt at humor was expressed in that thought but I guess not. I could hardly see God forcing the universe into existence but, if someone wants to get all existential, then that could be argued.

Perhaps to better understand what I am actually saying rather than trying to understand by my responses to dyed in the wool Calvinists, read my post above this one. (145)

I don't care much for broad brush strokes over what 'everyone' supposedly uses as a defense against Calvinsim. Truthfully, I never think of TULIP or shades of the reformed if no one on this site decides they will take up, once again, the banner of Calvin.
Sorry, I misunderstood your humor. ;)
 
I agree with you here. But at the same time, the New Testament is filled with statements that assure the reader that God will never lose any of those whom he has chosen and that his choice is made before they are born. We can't dismiss that aspect of it in my humble opinion.

No, but we should dismiss false understandings of those statements by harmonizing them with other NT statements indicating that God has chosen to save whosoever chooses to repent of rejecting Christ.
 
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Oh there are some wonderful passages that directly assure us our salvation is secured....BUT why ignore any scripture that indicates choice? Anyway, suppertime.
Good question. The Bible believes in Free will and meaningful choices, but where it is obvious that God orchestrated events, it sometimes demonstrates "Asymmetrical Agency"

A good example of this is found in the book of Genesis. The passage is Genesis 50:20, where Joseph tells his brothers, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good…”

Joseph’s statement comes at the end of a long arc in which his brothers’ betrayal—selling him into slavery—set in motion a chain of suffering that included false accusation, imprisonment, and years of separation. Yet Joseph interprets the entire story through the lens of asymmetrical agency: human intentions operated on one plane (malice, jealousy, betrayal), while God’s intention operated on a different and higher plane (preserving life during famine). The same act carried two meanings simultaneously, but not symmetrically—God’s purpose overrode, encompassed, and ultimately transformed theirs, turning their evil into the means of saving many lives.
 
Calvinism seems mostly to be a label. You said otherwise

So that wasn't what you addressed? It just looked like it?

I did not accuse you of anything, false or otherwise. I responded to your saying Calvinism seems to be most likely a label etc, so no accusation unless you accuse yourself.

I'm glad you don't recall rewriting the very words of Jesus Himself. You could not rewrite what He says if you tried. However, the entire Bible is our counsel and when that is taken into context, it disagrees with Calvinism. It might be interesting to know who you are thinking of when you say some think nothing of rewriting Jesus words and blaspheming God. I think we know.

It's kind of amusing when someone says they are being falsely accused to defend what they actually said. No one has to accuse you of anything when your own words say it all. If you cannot respond without falsely accusing me of something because you disagree with my stance on Calvinism, I will take it that is your way of disagreeing even though it's not factual.
You are as dishonest as the day is long and the days are getting longer.

Not surprising you repeatedly have your account deleted.
 
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so brightflame, you disagree with the gospel as presented in this video, based on scripture?


As previously stated by me, this site presents an easy to understand explanation of the gospel as I thought would be helpful for those who do not know what the actual gospel is.

However, while that video was included in that site, I presented these the following scriptures as proof of what scripture states concerning the gospel. So brightflame, why do you ignore these scriptures and decide to comment on a video I did not present as
my belief? To be sure, the speaker is sticking to scripture, but why ignore the scriptures I posted? Mind you, you seem to have a bad habit of ignoring scripture I post and just retort with one liners of your own opinion(s)

The word gospel literally means “good news” and occurs 93 times in the Bible, exclusively in the New Testament. In Greek, it is the word euaggelion, from which we get our English words evangelist, evangel, and evangelical. The gospel is, broadly speaking, the whole of Scripture; more narrowly, the gospel is the good news concerning Christ and the way of salvation.

The gospel involves Jesus’ death on the cross as the sin offering to fulfill the Law’s righteous requirement (Romans 8:3–4; Hebrews 10:5–10). Under the Law, animal sacrifices were offered year after year as a reminder of sin and a symbol of the coming sacrifice of Christ (Hebrews 10:3–4). When Christ offered Himself at Calvary, that symbol became a reality for all who would believe (Hebrews 10:11–18). The work of atonement is finished now, and that’s good news.

The gospel also involves Jesus’ resurrection on the third day. “He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25). The fact that Jesus conquered sin and death (sin’s penalty) is good news, indeed. The fact that He offers to share that victory with us is the greatest news of all (John 14:19).

you are missing one very important event..
When Christ begin to announce the Good News He said ::
Repent for the Kingdom (government) of God is at hand.
the Jews expected God's government was coming to replace Rome's rule.

the sacrifice of Christ as our Passover was the begin event for the Kingdom to be set up on earth.
Please notice I did not say our easter.
 
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All that is confusing and error but thanks !
what I wrote or what Christ had John write??

If what John wrote -- does that mean there is no First resurrection and no one will come back to life after the 1000 years?

or all that was changed and ever body is going to heaven??
 
The thousand-year reign—known as the Millennium—is interpreted in three primary ways within Christian theology:
  • Premillennialism: Christ returns literally before the thousand years to establish an earthly kingdom.
  • Amillennialism: The thousand years is a symbolic number representing Christ's current spiritual reign through the church.
  • Postmillennialism: The world becomes progressively Christianized before Christ returns to a fully established kingdom.
If you want a literal interpretation of Revelation (not recommended) you will be judged by your DEEDS and based on that judgement You will be thrown into an eternal torment. Not you beliefs. Not you claims of faith. Not your church affiliation. Not your claimed Holy Spirit baptism or your water baptism..... but on your deeds

Satan Bound

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire

7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven a and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment before the Great White Throne

11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And books were opened, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now read Matthew 25 to learn how God will judge you..... no matter what you "claim."

Sorry, you have been listening to the MANY not the few
 
Well, it seems to be endless those who come in here claiming nobody's beliefs are being misrepresented
when straight out of the gate they start lying and bearing false witness and claiming we have said things
we have not. Truly it is disgusting.But I for one see the pattern in it, gosh, how hateful are they to want
to slander so terribly they will jump on anything. It certainly is not like we have not seen it before. CDS
 
Matthew 20
King James Version
30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?
33 They say unto him, Lord, that our eyes may be opened.
34 So Jesus had compassion on them, and touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received sight, and they followed him.
 
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Matthew 20
King James Version
30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?
33 They say unto him, Lord, that our eyes may be opened.
34 So Jesus had compassion on them, and touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received sight, and they followed him.
We have at least one claiming God is not required in the process of coming to believe, others saying
people are not blind or deaf, they say everyone hears. Jesus said otherwise and I believe Him! Then we
are told nobody says such things LOL. Well, they do, and they are wrong, but getting such people to stop
misrepresenting is nigh impossible. They would rather blaspheme God, and they do that too.