Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[HeIsHere]

1. Dead people don’t believe (Ephesians 2:1 — “you were dead in your trespasses and sins”).
2. God must first give new life (regeneration) before a dead sinner can respond in faith.
3. Then, the newly regenerated person believes and is justified.”

Nope the Bible doesn’t say anything like this.

 

[HeIsHere]

Regeneration (salvation) before belief/faith is Calvinism/Reformed Doctrine 101 popularized by R. C. Sproul.

If regeneration happens before faith, like Calvinist say, then salvation happens before faith, and salvation is not by faith.
This makes salvation by election apart from faith.

This is not the Good News.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

They claim the unregenerate heart is not able to call and because of this faulty tenet they place salvation before the calling which again is not supported by scripture.

 

[HeIsHere]

Calvinism definitely promotes Total Inability to hear the Gospel and trust Gospel for salvation.

T in Tulip not found.

Ephesians 1:13 say nothing about regeneration before faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14 say nothing about regeneration before faith.

 

[Magenta]

Man’s heart is deceitful above all things and incurable (Jer 17 v 9), himself full of evil (Mark 7 v 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 v 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 v 44), does not seek for God (Rom 3 v 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom 5 v 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh (Rom 7 v 18), is a slave of sin (Rom 6 v 20, John 8 v 34, 2 Tim 2 v 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Cor 2 v 14), is dead in his sins (Eph 2 v 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph 2 v 3), is at enmity with God (Eph 2 v 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Rom 8 v 7), blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4 v 4), hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his evil deeds will be exposed (John 3 v 20). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the unregenerated man in Scripture that his inborn inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 v 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph 1 v 4), predestines us to adoption (Eph 1 v 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim 1 v 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thes 2 v 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Rom 2 v 4, 2 Tim 2 v 24-25), grants the act of believing (Phil 1 v 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 v 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Pet 1 v 3), born again not by our will, effort or desire but by His will and desire (John 1 v 12-13), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 v 65), draws people to Himself (John 6 v 44), predestines us to salvation (Rom 8 v 29-30), and circumcises our heart (with the heart one believes [Rom 10 v 10]) as promised in Deut 30 v 6, all according to His purpose (Phil 2 v 13). The stony ground of man’s wicked heart is not good soil. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said so! (Matt 7 v 18 + 12 v 33; Luke 6 v 43). All this and more weighed against zero verses articulating the so-called “free will” of the natural man, which is a vain man-exalting philosophically based doctrine erroneously and egregiously elevated to Bible truth. Praise God and to His glory, what is impossible with man is possible with God.

 

[Magenta]

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[Magenta]

John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.

 

[GWH]

Wait, whaaat? You're dishonest AND your account has been repeatedly deleted? No kidding? Good to know.

May I suggest sticking to discussion of doctrines such as TULIP without ad hominem attacks?

 

[brightfame52]

I studied Calvinism and found it to be the spawn of a murderous reprobate who never really left his Catholic roots.

You have an entire Bible and out of that rich resource you come out with TULIP and reject the fact that Jesus died for all.

As we both believe in Salvation though, do you think a person who does not accept Calvin's teaching is not really saved?

If you dont have Tulip Truths in your Gospel you have no Gospel of Grace !

 

[Melach]

They claim the unregenerate heart is not able to call and because of this faulty tenet they place salvation before the calling which again is not supported by scripture.

we dont. no one is saved prior to faith. what we are saying is that man cannot conjure up faith by himself. God's grace is needed

 

[brightfame52]

The Bible says that he died for the entire world. John 3:16

No that's not what Jn 3:16 says, that's your imposition that into the text.

 

[memberofthebride]

No, but we should dismiss false understandings of those statements by harmonizing them with other NT statements indicating that God has chosen to save whosoever chooses to repent of rejecting

I have yes. Esau was never chosen to be a "bad guy". Read the story. Esau was simply not chosen to be the man from whom Israel comes from, the firstborn right went to Jacob instead.

Its talking about nations, the man Esau never served Jacob.

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said unto her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy body; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.”

Do you understand where this belief system of yours leads? It leads to GOD being responsible for every rape, murder, every perverted thought, theft, you name it. Its all in God's mind in eternity past, decreeing it. That is sickening. We are just God's victims with no will to do otherwise.

The Scriptures do not teach this view of God, God hopes and doesnt get. He expected grapes, got wild grapes, He asks what more should I have done to my vineyard in isaiah 5.
God seeks for a man to stand the gap and finds none.
God wants to gather Jerusalem yet they were unwilling.
The pharisees REJECTED the counsel of God by not getting baptized

you may want to consider this from Paul

14What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Paul is showing Christ prepares a person for what ever purpose is needed to fulfill His plan.

Even so every person ever conceived in a womb -- every last one -- will be given their one opportunity for eternal life
but each in his own time ---- this IS NOT THE ONLY DAY eternal life will be offered.
Pharaoh, Judas, Hitler will have that one opportunity.

Explain how important people showed up at the exact moment in time??
Explain how God knows the future, yes He knows human nature but there must be the exact right person at the exact right time for the exact right purpose.

The Beast in revelation and Daniel is ready to rule the world at the exact moment -- at the beginning of the last 1260 days.

 

[brightfame52]

TULIP is not the gospel. It is an interpretation of the Bible. The L in TULIP is false because it doesn't understand the atonement.

Yes it is, and just think, you oppose it

 

[brightfame52]

so brightflame, you disagree with the gospel as presented in this video, based on scripture?

As previously stated by me, this site presents an easy to understand explanation of the gospel as I thought would be helpful for those who do not know what the actual gospel is.

However, while that video was included in that site, I presented these the following scriptures as proof of what scripture states concerning the gospel. So brightflame, why do you ignore these scriptures and decide to comment on a video I did not present as
my belief? To be sure, the speaker is sticking to scripture, but why ignore the scriptures I posted? Mind you, you seem to have a bad habit of ignoring scripture I post and just retort with one liners of your own opinion(s)

The word gospel literally means “good news” and occurs 93 times in the Bible, exclusively in the New Testament. In Greek, it is the word euaggelion, from which we get our English words evangelist, evangel, and evangelical. The gospel is, broadly speaking, the whole of Scripture; more narrowly, the gospel is the good news concerning Christ and the way of salvation.

The gospel involves Jesus’ death on the cross as the sin offering to fulfill the Law’s righteous requirement (Romans 8:3–4; Hebrews 10:5–10). Under the Law, animal sacrifices were offered year after year as a reminder of sin and a symbol of the coming sacrifice of Christ (Hebrews 10:3–4). When Christ offered Himself at Calvary, that symbol became a reality for all who would believe (Hebrews 10:11–18). The work of atonement is finished now, and that’s good news.

The gospel also involves Jesus’ resurrection on the third day. “He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25). The fact that Jesus conquered sin and death (sin’s penalty) is good news, indeed. The fact that He offers to share that victory with us is the greatest news of all (John 14:19).

Didn't I say that guy teaches a false Christ dishonoring, man exalting gospel?

 

[brightfame52]

I did.

Okay the Father put all conditions on Him to do His Job in saving His people from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. And He did save them, it is finished.

 

[brightfame52]

Our disagreement wasn't about the basis for our salvation, who Jesus is. We disagreed over your assumption that reconciliation is one-sided.

Yeah you deny the Death of Christ that it came short of reconciling both parties, God and man, that's an attack on the efficacy of His Death. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice it says we were reconciled to God, not God was reconciled to us.

 

[GWH]

you may want to consider this from Paul

14What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Paul is showing Christ prepares a person for what ever purpose is needed to fulfill His plan.

Even so every person ever conceived in a womb -- every last one -- will be given their one opportunity for eternal life
but each in his own time ---- this IS NOT THE ONLY DAY eternal life will be offered.
Pharaoh, Judas, Hitler will have that one opportunity.

Explain how important people showed up at the exact moment in time??
Explain how God knows the future, yes He knows human nature but there must be the exact right person at the exact right time for the exact right purpose.

The Beast in revelation and Daniel is ready to rule the world at the exact moment -- at the beginning of the last 1260 days.

The Bible teaches that God is just/righteous (Rom. 3:25-26, 9:14, 2Thes. 1:6, Isa. 5:16). This doctrine is called "theodicy". It means that explanations of God’s will should not seem unloving or unfair. Some atheists have a negative or evil conception of God, which may be reinforced by the words and deeds of those who claim to be theists (Rom. 2:24, 2Pet. 2:2). Who would want to believe in such a God? Rather than reject a caricature of God, an atheist should imagine the most perfect, loving and just God that he/she can, and choose to believe in that benevolent Being. God is NOT demonic!

What a person believes about the moral attributes of God affects how he or she interprets GW in the Bible, called “hermeneutics”. A Scripture-based hermeneutic might begin well by triangulating from two key NT "guiding teachings" (GTs) in order to discern the best understanding of problematic biblical statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11, Acts 17:26-28). Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just; He does not show favoritism (Rom. 2:11).

Paul indicated (in 2Tim. 3:15-17) that Scripture is useful for sinners to learn how to be saved and for saints to learn how to become completely sanctified, righteous or godly, and Paul said (in 1Thes. 5:21) to test everything (including the interpretations of GW) and hold on to the good. The GTs seem to be very good. The first GT, "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1Tim. 2:3-4) indicates that God loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8), and Matt. 5:44&48 teaches that God even loves His enemies (which would include Satan, who was created good per Gen. 1:31). The second GT, "God is just" (2Thes. 1:6a), means that God is righteous/good, so it would be better not to attempt an explanation of GW than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love, intended as discipline (Heb. 12:4-11) to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15, Rev. 3:19). (God practices what He preaches, which is for His children to love sinners while hating sin, so Satan, demonic angels and ungodly human souls will experience God's just wrath in hell). Because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or moral free will (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19).

This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm MFW (Deut. 30:19). This view is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd. Explanations of GW should not impugn God’s justice or demean His love for all (Psa. 145:17). Triangulation from these two “guiding teachings” (GTs) about divine omnilove and justness can help interpret problematic Scriptures such as the dogma known as TULIP.

 

[brightfame52]

what I wrote or what Christ had John write??

If what John wrote -- does that mean there is no First resurrection and no one will come back to life after the 1000 years?

or all that was changed and ever body is going to heaven??

Im not getting into eschatology, I just know this second chance stuff you spewing is garbage

 

[memberofthebride]

The Bible teaches that God is just/righteous (Rom. 3:25-26, 9:14, 2Thes. 1:6, Isa. 5:16). This doctrine is called "theodicy". It means that explanations of God’s will should not seem unloving or unfair. Some atheists have a negative or evil conception of God, which may be reinforced by the words and deeds of those who claim to be theists (Rom. 2:24, 2Pet. 2:2). Who would want to believe in such a God? Rather than reject a caricature of God, an atheist should imagine the most perfect, loving and just God that he/she can, and choose to believe in that benevolent Being. God is NOT demonic!

What a person believes about the moral attributes of God affects how he or she interprets GW in the Bible, called “hermeneutics”. A Scripture-based hermeneutic might begin well by triangulating from two key NT "guiding teachings" (GTs) in order to discern the best understanding of problematic biblical statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11, Acts 17:26-28). Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just; He does not show favoritism (Rom. 2:11).

Paul indicated (in 2Tim. 3:15-17) that Scripture is useful for sinners to learn how to be saved and for saints to learn how to become completely sanctified, righteous or godly, and Paul said (in 1Thes. 5:21) to test everything (including the interpretations of GW) and hold on to the good. The GTs seem to be very good. The first GT, "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1Tim. 2:3-4) indicates that God loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8), and Matt. 5:44&48 teaches that God even loves His enemies (which would include Satan, who was created good per Gen. 1:31). The second GT, "God is just" (2Thes. 1:6a), means that God is righteous/good, so it would be better not to attempt an explanation of GW than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love, intended as discipline (Heb. 12:4-11) to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15, Rev. 3:19). (God practices what He preaches, which is for His children to love sinners while hating sin, so Satan, demonic angels and ungodly human souls will experience God's just wrath in hell). Because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or moral free will (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19).

This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm MFW (Deut. 30:19). This view is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd. Explanations of GW should not impugn God’s justice or demean His love for all (Psa. 145:17). Triangulation from these two “guiding teachings” (GTs) about divine omnilove and justness can help interpret problematic Scriptures such as the dogma known as TULIP.

not sure of your reaction to what I wrote, but I showed not one is predestined to the lake of fire -- I do not find this "hell" that tortures humans that do not have eternal life -- for ever. that is satanic lies.

 

[brightfame52]

I know this is a verse used. But it simply doesn't mean what you think it does. Being dead in trespasses and sins doesnt mean no free will. Take the prodigal son, who was "dead" but then came to himself and was "alive":

Mans will is by nature a slave to sin and the devil Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. This is all of us by nature

Only God in Christ can save us from being a slave to sin Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you

 

[Melach]

Explain how important people showed up at the exact moment in time??
Explain how God knows the future, yes He knows human nature but there must be the exact right person at the exact right time for the exact right purpose.

The Beast in revelation and Daniel is ready to rule the world at the exact moment -- at the beginning of the last 1260 days.

yup. its all part of God's decree.

i use this argument all the time: exhaustive foreknowledge equals everything is predestined to occur as it does. people often give examples like "watching a football game thats been recorded doesnt mean you caused the result you just knew the outcome" but this example is faulty because we are talking about God. when God chose to create, knowing all that will happen, its all gonna happen exactly how God knows it will happen meaning its predestined. now you can say God just passively knew it and all the evil has no purpose or that it does indeed have a purpose.

speaking of revelation, watch this guys:

Rev. 17:17: For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.