Well I do Prov 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe
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4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Agreed. The Lord has indeed decreed that the wicked are headed for the day of evil. You could even say they are predestined to it. But did God create those people wicked? Or were they led astray by the enemy of God , satan?
Read Ephesians 2:1-3. This is the estate of all humanity before God intervenes. They are dead, being devastated, and are doomed. Thankfully, verse 4...but God...
I know this is a verse used. But it simply doesn't mean what you think it does. Being dead in trespasses and sins doesnt mean no free will. Take the prodigal son, who was "dead" but then came to himself and was "alive":
"“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ So he got up and went to his father."
That right there is repentance, and then:
"“But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate."
The son was dead, came to his senses, repented and is alive again. So that use of Ephesians 2 just doesnt match the Bible.
Agree, and it certainly does not state humans are born inherently filled with sin and unable to respond positively to the Good News.
And that was passage in Luke 15 is a 3 part parable. It's purpose is to show how the entire Godhead is involved in salvation. Don't leave out the good Shepherd who seeks out the sheep and the Spirit who lightens and cleans the room. Only after this does the Father receive the child again. Include the entire passage if you want complete understanding.
Ephesians 2:1-3 explains the fallen natural man exactly. Luke 15 explains verse 4...but God...exactly. An individual is saved when God exercises mercy.
Ephesians 2 v 1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
If you properly translate the Scriptures you clearly see something pretty profound.
Let's use one example everyone is well aware of. Esau and Jacob.
Now we know what Esau did by not viewing the Inheritance and Birthright as something very Special. He literally threw them away for a bowl of beans (lentils).
We read that God hated Esau.
Now, nowhere do we read that God made Esau do what he did. God's Foreknowledge knew what Esau would do and God hated Esau for the fact he would throw the most special Covenant connected to God away like it was trash.
There's literally other examples like Esau throughout the Bible like Pharaoh and others.
So let's now look at the opposite side of this view.
Everyone we see who would choose God after God made Himself known to them God called them Chosen.
Disciples, Paul, brothers James and Jude, Mary M and the other women, the other 70+ Disciples and many others.
These are people that as soon as God manifested Himself to them they became believers so God called them Chosen.
This is opposite of when God manifested Himself to like Esau, Pharaoh, others and they did as we read in Romans chapter 1.
So it's not that God specifically Chooses people because He manifests Himself to everyone. It's about what will the people do when God manifested Himself to them. Will they believe or reject God?
Everyone that believes in God after God manifested Himself to them God called them Chosen.
So it really is about God KNOWING (Foreknowledge) what a person will do between reject or believe in God that makes them Chosen.
From Genesis to Revelation proves this truth 100%
Let's use one example everyone is well aware of. Esau and Jacob.
Now we know what Esau did by not viewing the Inheritance and Birthright as something very Special. He literally threw them away for a bowl of beans (lentils).
We read that God hated Esau.
Now, nowhere do we read that God made Esau do what he did. God's Foreknowledge knew what Esau would do and God hated Esau for the fact he would throw the most special Covenant connected to God away like it was trash.
There's literally other examples like Esau throughout the Bible like Pharaoh and others.
So let's now look at the opposite side of this view.
Everyone we see who would choose God after God made Himself known to them God called them Chosen.
Disciples, Paul, brothers James and Jude, Mary M and the other women, the other 70+ Disciples and many others.
These are people that as soon as God manifested Himself to them they became believers so God called them Chosen.
This is opposite of when God manifested Himself to like Esau, Pharaoh, others and they did as we read in Romans chapter 1.
So it's not that God specifically Chooses people because He manifests Himself to everyone. It's about what will the people do when God manifested Himself to them. Will they believe or reject God?
Everyone that believes in God after God manifested Himself to them God called them Chosen.
So it really is about God KNOWING (Foreknowledge) what a person will do between reject or believe in God that makes them Chosen.
From Genesis to Revelation proves this truth 100%
Why can't it be 100% of Both? What if God had the ability to create me willing to believe in him?
Does God use force to create things? I think the Bible teaches that God speaks things into existence. Why can't God speak into existence that I choose him?
Doesn't Paul also say that he who began a good work in you will complete it?
I can't speak for anyone else, but this is how the Lord saved me.
My upbringing had taught me about God and judgment, not too much mercy, grace or love, mostly judgment.
I was hopelessly lost and trapped in sin.
I had little interest in heavenly things.
I knew not the meaning of repentance or faith.
And yet I was compelled through strong conviction to seek outside of myself for help.
One day, upon my knees with many tears, I called out in great distress upon anyone who would answer.
I promised whoever might be listening that I would serve them the rest of my life if they would only heal and help this broken man.
At which point God probably smiled and chuckled a bit, as he gave to me His Holy Spirit, a new heart and a new mind.
The next morning I awoke completely transformed.
It was only after picking up my bible and beginning to read that I realized it was Christ who had answered my prayer.
Since that time, I walked faithfully with Christ off and on, and at other times hardly at all.
In the 35 years since knowing Christ, no matter what seasons have come and gone in my life, whether I was faithful or doubtful, obedient or rebellious, my Father has never abandoned me.
Because unlike me, God keeps all His promises.
I'm no Calvinist. I have read much of Calvin though, and I'm not sure if Calvin himself would admit to being a Calvinist.
I do know that I was totally depraved when God called me out of the world.
I also know that every time I stepped out of His will and back into the world, that He would never let me drift too far.
But when I had learned the valuable lessons that only trials could teach, He would leave the 99 and go seeking after this wayward child and bring me back into His fold.
I am not a devout and disciplined man, I have insufficient strength to perform His will or love God in the way that He deserves.
Fortunately God has no such disability. When I am weak, He is strong. His strength is perfected in my weakness. And because of His great love and care for me, I persevere.
And because of His great love and care for me I will endure, all the way to the end.
All glory to Christ.
We do not cooperate with God in the work of salvation.
We agree with God that the work is finished.
Its called faith. It is a gift from God, purchased by His Son, and poured out into my heart through His Spirit.
It is my personal opinion that those who question the saving work of grace in the hearts of Gods chosen children, are those in most danger of being judged as faithless.
By the measure that they judge, they shall be judged. And that measure is dead works.
If faith without works is dead, a point upon which I am in full agreement, then works without faith are similarly dead.
When Christ returns, He will be looking for faith, a small reflection of Himself alive in me. Will He find it, yes, because He himself placed that faith within me, and has guarded, protected, and cultivated that faith in me from the moment of my regeneration, as was His intention before the foundations of the world were ever laid.
My upbringing had taught me about God and judgment, not too much mercy, grace or love, mostly judgment.
I was hopelessly lost and trapped in sin.
I had little interest in heavenly things.
I knew not the meaning of repentance or faith.
And yet I was compelled through strong conviction to seek outside of myself for help.
One day, upon my knees with many tears, I called out in great distress upon anyone who would answer.
I promised whoever might be listening that I would serve them the rest of my life if they would only heal and help this broken man.
At which point God probably smiled and chuckled a bit, as he gave to me His Holy Spirit, a new heart and a new mind.
The next morning I awoke completely transformed.
It was only after picking up my bible and beginning to read that I realized it was Christ who had answered my prayer.
Since that time, I walked faithfully with Christ off and on, and at other times hardly at all.
In the 35 years since knowing Christ, no matter what seasons have come and gone in my life, whether I was faithful or doubtful, obedient or rebellious, my Father has never abandoned me.
Because unlike me, God keeps all His promises.
I'm no Calvinist. I have read much of Calvin though, and I'm not sure if Calvin himself would admit to being a Calvinist.
I do know that I was totally depraved when God called me out of the world.
I also know that every time I stepped out of His will and back into the world, that He would never let me drift too far.
But when I had learned the valuable lessons that only trials could teach, He would leave the 99 and go seeking after this wayward child and bring me back into His fold.
I am not a devout and disciplined man, I have insufficient strength to perform His will or love God in the way that He deserves.
Fortunately God has no such disability. When I am weak, He is strong. His strength is perfected in my weakness. And because of His great love and care for me, I persevere.
And because of His great love and care for me I will endure, all the way to the end.
All glory to Christ.
We do not cooperate with God in the work of salvation.
We agree with God that the work is finished.
Its called faith. It is a gift from God, purchased by His Son, and poured out into my heart through His Spirit.
It is my personal opinion that those who question the saving work of grace in the hearts of Gods chosen children, are those in most danger of being judged as faithless.
By the measure that they judge, they shall be judged. And that measure is dead works.
If faith without works is dead, a point upon which I am in full agreement, then works without faith are similarly dead.
When Christ returns, He will be looking for faith, a small reflection of Himself alive in me. Will He find it, yes, because He himself placed that faith within me, and has guarded, protected, and cultivated that faith in me from the moment of my regeneration, as was His intention before the foundations of the world were ever laid.
Agreed, but Paul is saying something more profound than "you were under the death penalty." In Ephesians 2, “dead” cannot mean “non‑functional” or “unable to choose anything at all,” but it also cannot mean “fully neutral and free.” Paul is describing a condition in which the will is active, but its activity is not self‑directed. It is captured, channeled, and coerced by powers larger than the self.
Good question,
When Paul says God “will finish the good work He began” (Phil 1:6), the good work is God’s sovereign act of bringing a person from spiritual death into union with Christ and then carrying that new life all the way to final glory.
If the unsaved are not spiritually dead, why then why must God make spiritually born again?
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[Jhn 3:6 -7 KJV]
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
If the unsaved are not spiritually dead, when then why must God make them spiritually alive in Christ.
[1Co 15:22 KJV] 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
It is impossible for one who is already spiritually alive to be made spiritually alive, since they already are so.
"when he came to his senses": a dead man cannot come to his senses, because being dead he has no senses to come to - that's the definition of dead - being given spiritual life, on the other hand, is what gives spiritual senses to them. your own verse disproves your contention. Apparently, you don't think God knew or understood what He was saying by, "dead in sin"? Seriously?
Yes, Calvinist seems mostly to be a label simply used by those who love to misrepresentthe Biblical beliefs of others, while they contradict and deny what is explicitly articulated
of the natural man who is opposed to the spiritual things of God, captive to the will of the
devil (which they call being free), refusing to come into the Light because they are incapable
of receiving or understanding the things of God, hearing the gospel message as foolishness,
and serve the law of sin and death. Some think nothing of rewriting the very words of Jesus
Christ Himself, and blaspheming God rather than admit to the fact they are wrong.