Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

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But don't we see two faith's in Romans 5:1? The faith of Christ led him to believe his Father and trust him. Our faith led us to believe and Trust in the Father also. Christ's faith led to our reconciliation, but our faith led to our justification.

Or no?

No. Christ's faith led us to believe, but that is not what is spoken of in Eph 2:8. That faith is exclusively Christ's faith - the faith OF Christ.
Our faith comes as an attribute of salvation and is imputed from His faith, but our faith is its effect, not cause.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Faith/belief is not produced, nor manufactured.. it exists in people.
The objects of that faith/trust/belief vary from person to person.

Just so I'm clear on your post, you're saying then, that for someone to become saved is not under their control at all, correct?
 
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Baloney. I have yet to find any person who really believes they are the 'chosen' while the rest of us are simply fuel for the fire, to be anything but rude in the end and you do not disappoint.

The Bible is loaded with scripture.
Look you have seen plenty of arguments for TULIP with scripture Im sure, so you without excuse
 
Look you have seen plenty of arguments for TULIP with scripture Im sure, so you without excuse

You have just explained why I am not a believer in Calvinsim and certainly not the way most Calvinists explain it.

Hurray for you
 
Belief in/Faith in Christ Jesus is not a trade it is an act of trust.
It is a willingness to receive it, sadly people frame things to their advantage rather than letting the words of scripture be understood in context.

Do you feel comfortable with God leaving people in their sins because He did not select them for salvation?
Is that the God you find in Jesus?
Frankly, that is a distinctly profound question in my opinion. To be honest, a lot of things that God does makes me uncomfortable but I trust him so implicitly that I am willing to accept whatever he does.

Even so, I believe in the narrative structure of creation. If the world really is structured as a narrative authored by God, then our lives are not random sequences of events but storylines crafted with intention, coherence, and moral trajectory. In that framework, God is not merely issuing commands from above; He is shaping characters within a plot, giving each person a role that fits within the larger drama of creation and redemption. This means His judgments and punishments are never arbitrary outbursts of divine power but the natural outworking of the story He is telling—consequences that arise from the kind of character a person becomes and the purpose for which they were made. In a narrative universe, fate is not imposed from the outside; it is the logical implication of one’s identity and vocation within the story. God creates no one without purpose, and the end of each life follows organically from the role they inhabit, the choices they make, and the arc their story takes under His authorship.
 
Well you may just be more serious about the threads than I currently am. After awhile, it is hard to take the determined effort of some to mess up the gospel as serious.

No worries. Next time I will put a smiley face or something.
This calls for a joke. Perhaps you have heard this one.

Two lines form at the entrance to heaven.One sign says: “Stand here if you believed in free will.” The other says: “Stand here if you believed in predestination.”

A man walks up, confused, and asks the angel, “Which line should I be in?”The angel says, “You go in the predestination line.”The man protests, “But I chose the free‑will line!”The angel replies, “Exactly.”

It works because the punchline flips the categories: the man’s choice is overridden by the angel’s assignment, which is exactly the kind of paradox people feel when they try to reconcile human agency with divine sovereignty.

:giggle:
 
2-Corinthians4-4me.png

2 Corinthians 4 v 4 plus I wonder how when someone is blind to something, which, let's face it, means they cannot see it at all, or comprehend it, and finds the message connected to it foolishness, and is hostile in their minds toward the One True God behind it all, and loves evil, and suppresses truth, and cannot come to God on his own, being a slave of sin and unable to submit to God's law... I wonder how these people who push "free will" think such a person suddenly decides to throw over their very human nature and choose something he cannot even receive... some say without any help from God at all.
 
Faith/belief is not produced, nor manufactured.. it exists in people.
Not the Faith of Gods elect, its meted out in Salvation or with Salvation, it doesnt exist in the natural man 2 Pet 1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Notice it says "to them" not everybody, the them and us are the elect see 1 Pet 1:1 and notice its called" like precious faith" so that automatically disqualifies it from being found in the flesh of the spiritually dead natural man,

The word precious isotimos has to do with high honor, it comes from God and is imparted or bestowed at Salvation
The objects of that faith/trust/belief vary from person to person

The object of that Faith is Christ and His Righteousness as Saviour, and the subjects are as stated Gods elect Christ saved
 
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@Roger316. I didn't state something correctly in my 261 post I said, "led us to believe", I should instead have said "it gives belief to us" - belief is a gift as is everything associated with salvation.
sorry for any confusion.
That agrees with Christ giving us repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And to say the least, when He gives us repentance faith accompanies it so to turn from that which was false to that which is true 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
 
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I totally understand what you posted here. I'm not clear as to what you are saying about it though?
I should have said that I agree with your question about ignoring human choice. We shouldn't ignore those passages and the true Biblical understanding of God's sovereignty regards human choice as reality.

I don't know if you have ever had this experience, but last night, before I shut off my computer, I thought about something that I wanted to say to you, and in my haste, I kept it too brief. Sorry about that.

I simply wanted to add another data point to our understanding of human choice and how God can work through human choice to accomplish his will. I know that a lot more can be said about that.

There are a few more cases of Asymmetrical Agency we can explore. For instance,

Philippians 2:12–13
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This is Paul’s clearest statement of the paradox I'm pointing to: our working is grounded in God’s working. The command (“work out your salvation”) rests on the cause (“because God is at work in you”). Just as in the Genesis passage, Paul describes two causes for the same action: man is working out his own salvation because God is at work in him. I called this Asymmetrical Agency because God is the primary mover.

Hopefully I didn't confuse you.
 
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No. Christ's faith led us to believe, but that is not what is spoken of in Eph 2:8. That faith is exclusively Christ's faith - the faith OF Christ.
Our faith comes as an attribute of salvation and is imputed from His faith, but our faith is its effect, not cause.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
How did you make the connection that Paul was speaking of Christ's faith in Ephesians 2:8. I'm not challenging you. I want to understand you.
 
How did you make the connection that Paul was speaking of Christ's faith in Ephesians 2:8. I'm not challenging you. I want to understand you.

Because it is the gift of God, not of man. Is there another faith besides those two: man's or Christ's (God's)?
And the "and that not of yourself"
 
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Faith/belief is not produced, nor manufactured.. it exists in people.
The objects of that faith/trust/belief vary from person to person.
I like what you are saying here, if I understood you correctly. In my view, belief is a natural part of being human. As infants, we are "hard wired" to trust and believe our mothers. We couldn't learn anything other than by believing our teachers. And I think a review of the New Testament that one is judged, not for disbelief, but for unbelief.

Paul argues, for instance, that God punished those who "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness." In other words, they knew that God existed but they suppressed that knowledge. THAT is unbelief, the wilful suppression of the truth.
 
Because it is the gift of God, not of man. Is there another faith besides those two: man's or Christ's (God's)?
And the "and that not of yourself"
Have you ever noticed Faith in that verse has the definite article=The Faith
 
Have you ever noticed Faith in that verse has the definite article=The Faith

I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert in biblical Greek, but according to my translation (KJV), it shows it as a non-definite article but I'm open to learning. "the faith" would be a reasonable translation to me, but for it to mean man's faith would not be.
 
“…just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, … In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,” (Eph 1:4-5, 11, NRSV)
he chose us: have you noticed that the nation of Israel is the chosen nation of God. Do you think all Jewish people were saved? Of course not. Here, election/chosen is not to salvation.

Have you noticed how the disciples were chosen you 12, but one of you is the devil? GJohn 6.70

This is simply to let you know that being elected (like Israel and the 12 Disciples) is not about salvation.

What about your verse above, it says you were chosen, right? Actually not in the way you are using chosen. The Christians were chosen IN CHRIST (as a believer). This is called Positional Truth. They were not chosen out of Him (as an unbeliever), but in Him.

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, … So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. (Rom 9:11, 16, NRSV)
The actual theological definition of election means chosen to a privilege position. Israel were chosen as God's special people, not to salvation. And here God chose Jacob over Esau through whom He would carry on the covenant.

“who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,” (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48, NRSV)
In the NT Greek the word 'believers' is in the middle of the sentence, not the end. The word 'destined' is in the Middle Voice, meaning they had destined themselves to eternal life when they believed.


“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; … No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day… And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father.” (John 6:37, 44, 65, NRSV)

GJohn 12.32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”


“but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,” (Titus 3:4-5, RSV)

Rom 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.” (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

This passage is about Sanctification, the Christian walk.

You did not choose me but I chose you and I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.” (John 15:16, NRSV)

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13, NRSV)
 
Gen 3:6 occurred under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. When you can distinguish between the two, let me know and we can discuss further then.

[Hos 6:6-7 NIV]
6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 As at Adam, they have broken the covenant; they were unfaithful to me there.

Both OT and NT salvation were via faith per Rom. 4, which I knew you would refuse to acknowledge and not want to discuss,
but I posted for the benefit of those who appreciate Scriptures teaching GRFS.
It is interesting/ironic that you posted a verse (Hos. 6:7) teaching the necessary condition of saving faith for salvation.
Thanks; I will add it to the list.