Some thoughts on the Sabbath...

[Rob7]

Christianity did just fine … ? Who do you identify as the little horn of Daniel 7, 8, and 11? Who is the sea beast? Who is the wvil one in Daniel 11?

If you intend to address this please offer your support (verses)?

Thank you Brother !
I wasn't going to respond to Gideon300 's character assassinations, as he is just proving which side he is promoting, in this ongoing spiritual battle that we ALL are in HERE and NOW at these Final Days of Earth's History, ... just before the very soon, return of our Lord & King Jesus.
Where he said...

Christianity did just fine for centuries before SDA came on the scene. All you people do is sow discord among the brethren. God is not pleased with that.

It is not the God of heaven that "is not please", that he is referring to, but the god of this world, 2 Cor. 4:4 , John 12:31 , & Eph. 2:2 who hates the Spirit of Prophecy of the Son of God, ... Rev 19:10,

Ellen White had the SOP and presents it in her voluminous writings.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. " Rev. 19:10

... as you refer to the Book of Daniel. Ch 11, the "King of the North" ... "We war not with flesh and blood", but with the "King of the North" the RCC, and her allies~> the False Prophets of Rev 16:13, many of whom are in these CC forums, NOW !

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph. 2:2

We are all spiritual pawns, for one side or the other, and "you shall know them by their fruits" Matt. 7:20, ...
Which is why Gideon hates EGW, because by her fruits, = her writings, you can understand that she had the SOP, which lifts up Jesus, making us "Believers" , John 3:16 of His Righteousness, which is His Obedience to the Will of The Father = The Way, The TRUTH, & The Life ...

†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ~~ Blessings ~~ ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
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[JustThinking]

There are two views on the little horn.

In the Book of Daniel, the "little horn" refers to a powerful and arrogant figure who rises to persecute God’s people. Scholars generally identify this figure in two distinct ways, depending on whether they are interpreting the text from a historical or an end-times perspective: [1, 2, 3]
1. The Historical View (Antiochus IV Epiphanes)
Many historians and biblical scholars identify the little horn as Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Greek king of the Seleucid Empire who ruled from 175 to 164 BCE. He is known for his brutal persecution of the Jews, outlawing Jewish religious practices, and desecrating the Temple in Jerusalem by building an altar to Zeus (an event often called the "abomination of desolation"). This interpretation aligns closely with the visions in Daniel 8. [1, 2, 3, 4]
2. The Prophetic/Eschatological View (The Antichrist)
Other Christian traditions interpret the little horn—particularly the one found in Daniel 7—as an eschatological figure often referred to as the Antichrist. In this view, the little horn emerges from a final, revived world empire (often linked to the Roman Empire). This figure is believed to be a future tyrant who will blaspheme God, change religious laws, and persecute believers for a symbolic period of "a time, times, and half a time" (three and a half years) before being defeated at the end of the world. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

1. The Historical View (Antiochus IV Epiphanes)

Was definitely fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and no question about that.

The Temple was cleansed and rededicated by Judas Maccabeus on the 25th of Kislev in 165 BCE. This was exactly
three years after Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecrated it.

The Feast of Dedication mentioned in John 10:22 is exactly that event. Known today as Hanukkah (which translates
to "dedication"), it is an eight-day festival commemorating the miraculous liberation and purification of the Temple.

Regarding the second view (The Antichrist) one might consider that a second fulfillment of the first historical view.
When the second temple was ripped apart and defiled by the Roman armies in 70 AD.

So we have a dual fulfillment of that first historical view.

You seem to be looking for a third fulfillment when a third temple does not even exist.

Thanks for your thoughts and I believe you have indeed captured the two most prominent interpretations for the little horn.

Unfortunately, they are both grossly incorrect. And before this takes on a life of its own, don’t you agree the little horn COMES OUT OF THE 4th kingdom AFTER the 10 horns come out?

Meaning, he can’t possibly be AE who lived between the 3rd and 4th kingdoms. Further, wasn’t this little horn found speaking pompous words and then the beast was slain (7:11)? That beast that was slain was the 4th beast that ruled when Jesus was on the earth.

Meaning, God has given us the left and right time brackets for this power. This means there is no dual fulfillment. God told us when he would arrive and then gave us sufficient characteristics and actions this one will perform in chapters 7 and 8.

 

[Inquisitor]

what you are not understanding

When Christ is on earth as KING and the 12 tribes of Israel have been given the Promise Land, promised to Abraham as Christ began to form His chosen people, there will be possible 800 million gentiles still alive on earth.
by the end of the 1260 days 90% of our 8 billion will have died. 10% God's tithe will survive the time of the end.

These gentiles will have no understand, they must be taught just like the Israelite's when they came out of Egypt.

Zechariah 14
16And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations (gentiles) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. show me when this took place --ever??

When Christ comes as KING of Kings that does not end human nature, human nature is replaced over time by God's divine Natures being developed when The Holy Spirit is put in a person.

the gentiles must be taught from scratch --- they know zero.

Why do you suppose God set aside 1000 years as the time of REST? humans have had 6000 years and the world is headed for World WAR three now.

I did not write the prophecies in Ezekiel -- Christ had Ezekiel write them --- your problem is with Christ.
Explain why There are many chapters giving the details -- and there is no possible way any one can say this has taken place.

You seem to be saying that the ceremonial law is in full force.

How else can you celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles without the ceremonial law?

The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross but know it's back in force?

How can you have hundreds of millions of people in Jerusalem which is such a small city?

 

[Inquisitor]

Thank you Brother !
I wasn't going to respond to Gideon300 's character assassinations, as he is just proving which side he is promoting, in this ongoing spiritual battle that we ALL are in HERE and NOW at these Final Days of Earth's History, ... just before the very soon, return of our Lord & King Jesus.
Where he said...

It is not the God of heaven that "is not please", that he is referring to, but the god of this world, 2 Cor. 4:4 , John 12:31 , & Eph. 2:2 who hates the Spirit of Prophecy of the Son of God, ... Rev 19:10,

Ellen White had the SOP and presents it in her voluminous writings.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. " Rev. 19:10

... as you refer to the Book of Daniel. Ch 11, the "King of the North" ... "We war not with flesh and blood", but with the "King of the North" the RCC, and her allies~> the False Prophets of Rev 16:13, many of whom are in these CC forums, NOW !

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph. 2:2

We are all spiritual pawns, for one side or the other, and "you shall know them by their fruits" Matt. 7:20, ...
Which is why Gideon hates EGW, because by her fruits, = her writings, you can understand that she had the SOP, which lifts up Jesus, making us "Believers" , John 3:16 of His Righteousness, which is His Obedience to the Will of The Father = The Way, The TRUTH, & The Life ...

†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† ~~ Blessings ~~ ††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
​

Who is the king of the south?

Daniel 11:14-16
Now in those times many will rise up against the king of the South; the violent ones among your people will also lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they will fall down. Then the king of the North will come, cast up a siege ramp and capture a well-fortified city; and the forces of the South will not stand their ground, not even their choicest troops, for there will be no strength to make a stand.

You need to read and explain the whole of the chapter Daniel 11.

You have huge holes in your eschatology.

 

[Inquisitor]

Thanks for your thoughts and I believe you have indeed captured the two most prominent interpretations for the little horn.

Unfortunately, they are both grossly incorrect. And before this takes on a life of its own, don’t you agree the little horn COMES OUT OF THE 4th kingdom AFTER the 10 horns come out?

Meaning, he can’t possibly be AE who lived between the 3rd and 4th kingdoms. Further, wasn’t this little horn found speaking pompous words and then the beast was slain (7:11)? That beast that was slain was the 4th beast that ruled when Jesus was on the earth.

Meaning, God has given us the left and right time brackets for this power. This means there is no dual fulfillment. God told us when he would arrive and then gave us sufficient characteristics and actions this one will perform in chapters 7 and 8.

Your reading my post on the book of Daniel and "the little horn"?

How did you get to the book of Revelation?

Daniel 7:8
While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them,
and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes
like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

Are you with me here?

 

[JustThinking]

Your reading my post on the book of Daniel and "the little horn"?

How did you get to the book of Revelation?

Daniel 7:8
While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them,
and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes
like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

Are you with me here?

I apologize, I must not be understanding this comment of yours.... I thought I was responding to the interpretations that the little horn was either AE or a future anti-christ figure coming at the end of times... was I mistaken? Thanks.

 

[Genez]

I apologize, I must not be understanding this comment of yours.... I thought I was responding to the interpretations that the little horn was either AE or a future anti-christ figure coming at the end of times... was I mistaken? Thanks.

I am sure AE is something simple to know when we know what AE means.

But, what is AE?

 

[JustThinking]

Who is the king of the south?

Daniel 11:14-16
Now in those times many will rise up against the king of the South; the violent ones among your people will also lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they will fall down. Then the king of the North will come, cast up a siege ramp and capture a well-fortified city; and the forces of the South will not stand their ground, not even their choicest troops, for there will be no strength to make a stand.

You need to read and explain the whole of the chapter Daniel 11.

You have huge holes in your eschatology.

I would really enjoy reading your interpretations for chapter 11. It is my opinion that Daniel is the most difficult book to interpret in all of scripture, and chapter 11 is just about unbelieveable in its complexity. It is truly a very nasty chapter to unpack.

 

[JustThinking]

I am sure AE is something simple to know when we know what AE means.

But, what is AE?

Antiochus Epiphanes - a Syrian general who ruled in one of the northern territories of the former Greek empire after Alexander died. He ruled only for 13 years and came onto the scene some 150 years or so after the death of Alexander. He really is nobody in history but was known for his hatred of the Jews. The only reason he gets any "ink" in the discussion of the Book of Daniel is because most interpreters and scholars have identified him as the little horn.... but he has absolutely nothing to do with the little horn who comes out of the 4th kingdom. AE arrived in history around 150 years after the 3rd kingdom of Greece was split into 4 territories and that split represented the closing out of the 3rd kingdom - not the continuation of it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Thanks for your thoughts and I believe you have indeed captured the two most prominent interpretations for the little horn.

Unfortunately, they are both grossly incorrect. And before this takes on a life of its own, don’t you agree the little horn COMES OUT OF THE 4th kingdom AFTER the 10 horns come out?

Meaning, he can’t possibly be AE who lived between the 3rd and 4th kingdoms. Further, wasn’t this little horn found speaking pompous words and then the beast was slain (7:11)? That beast that was slain was the 4th beast that ruled when Jesus was on the earth.

Meaning, God has given us the left and right time brackets for this power. This means there is no dual fulfillment. God told us when he would arrive and then gave us sufficient characteristics and actions this one will perform in chapters 7 and 8.

You may not know but there are two little horns in the book of Daniel.

One is in chapter seven and the other is in chapter eight.

They are two different little horns.

The Book of Daniel features two distinct "little horns" (or small horns) in chapters 7 and 8. While both
represent arrogant, blasphemous rulers who persecute God's people, they differ in their origin, timing,
and primary identity according to biblical scholars. [1, 2, 3]

The Little Horn of Daniel 7

• Origin: Emerges from the fourth beast (universally identified in prophetic history as the Roman Empire).
• Context: It rises among ten other horns (representing a ten-nation confederacy) and uproots three of them
• to establish its power.
• Characteristics: Possesses "eyes like a human" and a mouth that speaks arrogant, boastful words against God.
• Interpretation: Widely interpreted by future/eschatological scholars as the ultimate Antichrist, a political and
• religious world leader who will rise to power in the end times and persecute believers for a limited period
• (often described as 3 and 1/2 years). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Small Horn of Daniel 8

• Origin: Emerges out of one of the four divided kingdoms of Alexander the Great's Greek Empire (the Hellenistic period).
• Context: It rises long after Alexander the Great, growing toward the south (Egypt), east (Persia/Babylon), and the "Beautiful Land" (Israel).
• Characteristics: It desecrates the Temple in Jerusalem, temporarily stops the daily sacrifices, and tramples on God's sanctuary.
• Interpretation: Historians and scholars universally identify this horn as Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He was a Seleucid king who reigned from 175–164 BCE, outlawed Jewish religious practices, and erected an altar to Zeus in the Jewish Temple (an event known as the "abomination of desolation"). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Key Differences at a Glance

• Empire of Origin: Daniel 7's horn comes out of Rome. Daniel 8's horn comes out of Greece.
• Timeframe: Daniel 7 points to a future, end-times tyrant. Daniel 8 highlights a specific historical king from the 2nd century BCE.
• Fate: Daniel 7's horn is destroyed by God's supernatural judgment at the end of history. Daniel 8's horn is broken "without human hand" and its legacy concludes with Antiochus's death. (Many scholars view Antiochus as a historical "type" or shadow of the ultimate end-times Antichrist)

 

[memberofthebride]

You seem to be saying that the ceremonial law is in full force.

How else can you celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles without the ceremonial law?

The ceremonial law was nailed to the cross but know it's back in force?

How can you have hundreds of millions of people in Jerusalem which is such a small city?

There IS One Law, it is not ceremonial, God's Holy law/Torah is Eternal
The Many use the word "ceremonial" to reduce the Torah's importance so they can justify not obeying.
The Torah; the Commandments, The Statutes and the Judgments are not ceremonial, any that transgress the commandments are UNDER the penalty of eternal death. how is that ceremonial?

It is the WORD of God given to His prophet Zechariah, showing what will take place during the 1000 years
explain how nailing to a hunk of wood does any things and show the prophecies stating that would occur.
plus here is Jesus Christ HIMSELF stating that can never happen
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
and the word the Many use to say Christ did not mean verse 17 "fulfil", actually means FILL TO THE FULL,not make obsolete.

one reason the MANY believe all the lies they do --- they believe the N T made the O T obsolete.
and without the O the N can not be understood which is why there are tens of thousands of diverse confusing churches

so, you have never read Revelation and Christ's prophets??
when Christ is here on earth as KING of Kings, the earth will have been utterly destroyed and will be rebuilt as the Garden of Eden.
the leaders of the gentile nations will come to Jerusalem, not the whole population.

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning]
the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.
the 7 Feasts are not Jewish --- they are GOD'S Feasts.

Question; is the Word of God eternal? can it be changed? does God Change? Why did Christ say we are to live by EVERY WORD?
out of 1700 or so pages in the Word, why do the Many use only about 50 or 60 and ignore 1650?

I see the confusion on this site, it is the same confusion and the reason there are thousands of churches.
lets just say there are 50 main denominations, just guessing, are all following Jesus Christ??

Are there 50 ways? why does the WORD say God is ONE and there is only one narrow WAY that only the few find?

For some one that knows little, to come here -- how is it not possible they will leave confused?

Until Christ is on earth as KING of Kings- this world will remain in confusion (deceived) and nothing I write or anyone else writes, can change that fact.

 

[Rob7]

Who is the king of the south?

Based on the framework of Adventist eschatology where the "King of the North" in Daniel 11 is understood to be the Papacy (Spiritual Babylon), ( referenced in Rev. 14:6-12 ), the "King of the South" is identified as Atheism, Secularism, or Humanism (often referred to prophetically as "Spiritual Egypt").

While some early pioneers like Uriah Smith interpreted the kings of Daniel 11 geographically (identifying the North as the Ottoman Empire/Turkey and the South as literal Egypt), the spiritual interpretation applies these powers globally as ideological forces in the last days.

Here is how this theological framework identifies and explains the King of the South:

Spiritual Egypt and the Spirit of Atheism​

In biblical antiquity, the literal King of the South was the nation of Egypt. In the spiritual application of end-time prophecy, the characteristics of literal Egypt are applied to a modern ideological power.

• The Defiance of Pharaoh: In Exodus 5:2 (AKJV), Pharaoh famously rejects God's authority, stating, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." This represents a complete denial of the true God.
• Ellen White’s Definition: In The Great Controversy, Ellen G. White links this exact Egyptian defiance to the prophecies of Revelation 11 (specifically the power that symbolically possesses the traits of "Egypt" and "Sodom"). She explicitly writes, "This is atheism." Therefore, the power that mirrors Egypt in the time of the end is an atheistic or aggressively secular power that denies God's existence and authority.

---

The Historical and Prophetic Clash (Daniel 11:40)​

Daniel 11:40 (AKJV) states: "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind..."

• The Deadly Wound (1798): Adventist eschatology traditionally marks 1798 as the beginning of the "time of the end." During the French Revolution, an aggressively atheistic, secular power (Spiritual Egypt / King of the South) "pushed" at the Papacy (Spiritual Babylon / King of the North). The French government abolished religion, executed priests, and literally took Pope Pius VI captive, dealing the Papacy a "deadly wound."
• The Ongoing Ideological War: In the centuries following 1798, this atheistic philosophy evolved into broader secularism and state-sponsored atheism (such as 20th-century Communism). The prophecy outlines an ongoing historical and ideological clash between the religiously oppressive system of the Papacy (the North) and the godless, secular system of Atheism (the South).

---

The Final Victory of the King of the North​

The prophecy of Daniel 11 outlines that the King of the South does not ultimately win this ideological war.

• The Whirlwind Response: The text says the King of the North (the Papacy) comes against the King of the South "like a whirlwind." In modern historical application, many Adventist expositors point to the late 20th century, when the Papacy played a pivotal role in the collapse of atheistic Communism in Eastern Europe, demonstrating this overwhelming "whirlwind" counter-attack.
• The Global Religious Deception: According to this prophetic framework, Atheism (the King of the South) is eventually subdued or overshadowed by a massive end-time religious revival led by the King of the North. This aligns with Ellen White's warnings that the final events will not be dominated by global atheism, but by an apostate global religious union (Babylon) that enforces false worship and mandates the Sunday law, setting the stage for the final conflict over God's true law and the impending Investigative Judgment.

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
​

 

[memberofthebride]

Based on the framework of Adventist eschatology where the "King of the North" in Daniel 11 is understood to be the Papacy (Spiritual Babylon), ( referenced in Rev. 14:6-12 ), the "King of the South" is identified as Atheism, Secularism, or Humanism (often referred to prophetically as "Spiritual Egypt").

While some early pioneers like Uriah Smith interpreted the kings of Daniel 11 geographically (identifying the North as the Ottoman Empire/Turkey and the South as literal Egypt), the spiritual interpretation applies these powers globally as ideological forces in the last days.

Here is how this theological framework identifies and explains the King of the South:

Spiritual Egypt and the Spirit of Atheism​

In biblical antiquity, the literal King of the South was the nation of Egypt. In the spiritual application of end-time prophecy, the characteristics of literal Egypt are applied to a modern ideological power.

• The Defiance of Pharaoh: In Exodus 5:2 (AKJV), Pharaoh famously rejects God's authority, stating, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go." This represents a complete denial of the true God.
• Ellen White’s Definition: In The Great Controversy, Ellen G. White links this exact Egyptian defiance to the prophecies of Revelation 11 (specifically the power that symbolically possesses the traits of "Egypt" and "Sodom"). She explicitly writes, "This is atheism." Therefore, the power that mirrors Egypt in the time of the end is an atheistic or aggressively secular power that denies God's existence and authority.

---

The Historical and Prophetic Clash (Daniel 11:40)​

Daniel 11:40 (AKJV) states: "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind..."

• The Deadly Wound (1798): Adventist eschatology traditionally marks 1798 as the beginning of the "time of the end." During the French Revolution, an aggressively atheistic, secular power (Spiritual Egypt / King of the South) "pushed" at the Papacy (Spiritual Babylon / King of the North). The French government abolished religion, executed priests, and literally took Pope Pius VI captive, dealing the Papacy a "deadly wound."
• The Ongoing Ideological War: In the centuries following 1798, this atheistic philosophy evolved into broader secularism and state-sponsored atheism (such as 20th-century Communism). The prophecy outlines an ongoing historical and ideological clash between the religiously oppressive system of the Papacy (the North) and the godless, secular system of Atheism (the South).

---

The Final Victory of the King of the North​

The prophecy of Daniel 11 outlines that the King of the South does not ultimately win this ideological war.

• The Whirlwind Response: The text says the King of the North (the Papacy) comes against the King of the South "like a whirlwind." In modern historical application, many Adventist expositors point to the late 20th century, when the Papacy played a pivotal role in the collapse of atheistic Communism in Eastern Europe, demonstrating this overwhelming "whirlwind" counter-attack.
• The Global Religious Deception: According to this prophetic framework, Atheism (the King of the South) is eventually subdued or overshadowed by a massive end-time religious revival led by the King of the North. This aligns with Ellen White's warnings that the final events will not be dominated by global atheism, but by an apostate global religious union (Babylon) that enforces false worship and mandates the Sunday law, setting the stage for the final conflict over God's true law and the impending Investigative Judgment.

††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
​

the king of the north, the Beast, is from and is in Germany which is the Assyria of old and is joined by the pope, the false prophet

 

[Rob7]

The Book of Daniel features two distinct "little horns" (or small horns) in chapters 7 and 8. They are two different little horns.

the king of the north, the Beast, is from and is in Germany which is the Assyria of old

The visions of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are understood through the prophetic principle of recapitulation—meaning each subsequent vision repeats the timeline of previous visions but expands on specific details.

In this theological framework, the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 and the "little horn" of Daniel 8:9 represent the same continuous power—Rome—transitioning from its political, pagan phase into its religious, papal phase.

Here is an explanation of the two visions and the relationship between the little horns:

The Parallel Visions: Daniel 7 and Daniel 8​

Adventist eschatology teaches that God gave Daniel parallel visions to provide a continuous historical timeline, highlighting different aspects of the same succeeding world empires.

• Daniel 7 (The Four Beasts): This vision covers the political history of the world from Daniel’s time to the final judgment. It depicts four beasts: a Lion (Babylon), a Bear (Medo-Persia), a Leopard with four heads (Greece), and a "dreadful and terrible" fourth beast with iron teeth and ten horns (Pagan Rome).
• Daniel 8 (The Ram and He-Goat): This vision covers the same timeline but focuses on the powers that specifically impact God's sanctuary and His people. It begins later in history, omitting Babylon (which was nearing its end). The AKJV explicitly identifies these powers: the Ram with two horns is "the kings of Media and Persia" (Daniel 8:20), and the rough He-Goat is "the king of Grecia" (Daniel 8:21). The goat's "great horn" (Alexander the Great) is broken, replaced by four notable horns (the division of the Greek empire).

---

The Little Horn of Daniel 7 (The Papacy)​

In Daniel 7, the focus is on the division of the Roman Empire and the rise of a persecuting religious power.

• Rise among the Ten: Out of the fourth beast (Pagan Rome) grow ten horns, representing the divided nations of Europe. Then, a "little horn" (Daniel 7:8) comes up among them, plucking up three horns by the roots (historically identified by pioneers as the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths).
• Characteristics: This horn has "eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." It is a uniquely religious-political power.
• Actions: Daniel 7:25 (AKJV) states this power will "speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." Adventist pioneers identify this as the Papacy (Spiritual Babylon), which persecuted reformers and altered God’s law (specifically removing the second commandment regarding idols and attempting to change the Sabbath from the seventh day to Sunday).

---

The Little Horn of Daniel 8 (Pagan and Papal Rome)​

In Daniel 8, the focus shifts to how this power attacks the "daily" (the continual ministry of Christ) and the heavenly sanctuary.

• Origin: Daniel 8:8-9 (AKJV) notes that after the Greek goat's horn broke into four towards the "four winds of heaven," out of one of them came forth a "little horn." Adventist pioneers strongly emphasized the grammar of the original Hebrew, arguing that the little horn did not come out of one of the four Greek horns, but out of one of the four winds (directions). Thus, it arose from the West (the Italian peninsula) as Pagan Rome.
• Horizontal and Vertical Expansion: This little horn first expands horizontally (militarily) "toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel]" as Pagan Rome. It then expands vertically (spiritually), standing up against the "Prince of the host" (Christ, who was crucified under Roman authority).
• The Transition: Eventually, this power transitions into its papal phase, casting down the "place of his sanctuary" and casting "the truth to the ground" (Daniel 8:11-12).

---

The Relationship Between the Two Little Horns​

While modern futurist theology often separates these horns (attributing Daniel 8 to Antiochus Epiphanes), Ellen White and the pioneers taught they are inextricably linked.

• Two Phases of One Power: The little horn of Daniel 7 represents solely the Papal phase of Rome, arising after the empire was divided. The little horn of Daniel 8 represents both phases of Rome: it begins as Pagan Rome (conquering physically) and morphs into Papal Rome (conquering spiritually).
• The Attack on the Sanctuary: Both visions climax with an attack on God's truth. Daniel 7 focuses on the little horn attacking God's Law on earth. Daniel 8 focuses on the little horn attacking God's Sanctuary in heaven, obscuring Christ's intercessory ministry by substituting an earthly priesthood, earthly sacrifices (the mass), and earthly confession.
• The Divine Remedy: The actions of the little horn necessitate a divine response. In Daniel 7, the remedy is the Ancient of Days taking His seat in judgment (Daniel 7:9-10). In Daniel 8, the remedy is the cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 2300 days (Daniel 8:14). In Adventist theology, these are two descriptions of the exact same event: the beginning of the 1844 Investigative Judgment, where God will ultimately vindicate His law, His sanctuary, and His people against the deceptions of the little horn.

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[Inquisitor]

There IS One Law, it is not ceremonial, God's Holy law/Torah is Eternal
The Many use the word "ceremonial" to reduce the Torah's importance so they can justify not obeying.
The Torah; the Commandments, The Statutes and the Judgments are not ceremonial, any that transgress the commandments are UNDER the penalty of eternal death. how is that ceremonial?

The only reason I use the word "ceremonial" is because the four major church organizations in Church history,
use that division in the law. I disagree with Thomas Aquinas (ceremonial law) and I do not divide the law into sections.

The written law of Mt Sinai was one unit and Israel agreed to that covenant.

The written law (Mt Sinai) was only given specifically to the nation of Israel (Exodus 24).

The written law was not given to Israel's forefathers nor any other nation.

The Jews were the chosen people.

Jesus was only sent to Israel (Matthew 15:24) and not to the Gentiles.

It is the WORD of God given to His prophet Zechariah, showing what will take place during the 1000 years
explain how nailing to a hunk of wood does any things and show the prophecies stating that would occur.
plus here is Jesus Christ HIMSELF stating that can never happen
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
and the word the Many use to say Christ did not mean verse 17 "fulfil", actually means FILL TO THE FULL,not make obsolete.

The difference between the written law (Mt. Sinai) and spiritual law (Grace) lies in their source, purpose, and execution.
The written law is an external standard of Dos and Don'ts meant to expose human sin. Grace is an internal transformation
by the Holy Spirit that empowers you to live righteously. [1, 2, 3, 4]

The contrast between these two approaches can be understood through several core distinctions:

• External Demands vs. Internal Power: The written code at Mt. Sinai demanded perfect obedience but gave humanity no inner power to achieve it. Grace gives you the Holy Spirit, which writes God's desires onto your heart and gives you the desire and ability to obey.
• The X-Ray Machine vs. The Cure: The law is like an X-ray; it can accurately point out every fracture and flaw, but it cannot fix the broken bone. Grace is the physician and the cure; it forgives your failures and actively heals your nature.
• Fear vs. Love: Living by the law is often driven by a fear of punishment. Living by grace is motivated by love and gratitude for what has already been freely provided.
• Performance vs. Acceptance: Under the written law, your standing with God depends on your daily performance (resulting in either pride when you succeed or despair when you fail). Under grace, God’s acceptance comes first, serving as the foundation for your life rather than the reward. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

As the Apostle Paul explains, the written law is "holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good", but it was powerless to change human hearts. Grace replaces the external checklist with an inward relationship.

The emphasis in the N.T is on that one word "grace".

The gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15) is the gospel of grace.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which
I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel.

Philippians 1:7
For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment
and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

 

[memberofthebride]

The only reason I use the word "ceremonial" is because the four major church organizations in Church history,
use that division in the law. I disagree with Thomas Aquinas (ceremonial law) and I do not divide the law into sections.

The written law of Mt Sinai was one unit and Israel agreed to that covenant.

The written law (Mt Sinai) was only given specifically to the nation of Israel (Exodus 24).

The written law was not given to Israel's forefathers nor any other nation.

The Jews were the chosen people.

Jesus was only sent to Israel (Matthew 15:24) and not to the Gentiles.


The difference between the written law (Mt. Sinai) and spiritual law (Grace) lies in their source, purpose, and execution.
The written law is an external standard of Dos and Don'ts meant to expose human sin. Grace is an internal transformation
by the Holy Spirit that empowers you to live righteously. [1, 2, 3, 4]

The contrast between these two approaches can be understood through several core distinctions:

• External Demands vs. Internal Power: The written code at Mt. Sinai demanded perfect obedience but gave humanity no inner power to achieve it. Grace gives you the Holy Spirit, which writes God's desires onto your heart and gives you the desire and ability to obey.
• The X-Ray Machine vs. The Cure: The law is like an X-ray; it can accurately point out every fracture and flaw, but it cannot fix the broken bone. Grace is the physician and the cure; it forgives your failures and actively heals your nature.
• Fear vs. Love: Living by the law is often driven by a fear of punishment. Living by grace is motivated by love and gratitude for what has already been freely provided.
• Performance vs. Acceptance: Under the written law, your standing with God depends on your daily performance (resulting in either pride when you succeed or despair when you fail). Under grace, God’s acceptance comes first, serving as the foundation for your life rather than the reward. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

As the Apostle Paul explains, the written law is "holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good", but it was powerless to change human hearts. Grace replaces the external checklist with an inward relationship.

The emphasis in the N.T is on that one word "grace".

The gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15) is the gospel of grace.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which
I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel.

Philippians 1:7
For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment
and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

I do not see grace as doctrine or power. Strong's also defines it as kindness, the kindness of God.

What I read gives us the willingness and ability to obey is the Holy Spirit,
the "Promise" the 120 were told to wait for.
When the 120 were given the Holy spirit they spoke in foreign languages praising God

the Children of Israel were not given the Holy spirit and they could never obey,

my study has shown me the Spirit, that ONE Spirit, is from the Father and is the same Spirit that impregnated Mary.
and the same Spirit that raised Christ to life.

that Spirit from the Father is what makes HIM our Father, just like it made Him the Father of Christ.
When all is completed --- the Father's ONE spirit will be in all His sons, His whole family.

God is spirit.

 

[Rob7]

It is my opinion that Daniel is the most difficult book to interpret in all of scripture, and chapter 11 is just about unbelieveable in its complexity.

I agree with you about chapter 11, of Daniel, being the most difficult in the book. Daniels book and the time prophecies are foundational for understanding God's scripture and a true understanding of Jesus and His Righteousness, and the spiritual history of the world, these past 6000 years. The Book of Daniel is the "Key" to the correct understanding of Revelation, the battle between the Dragon and God's People, His Church, Rev. 12 ( and it is not those people living in the Holy Lands now ) ...Church history from the destruction of the second temple till the New Heaven & New Earth. in Rev 22

The correct understanding of the 70 Week, the 1260 year and the 2300 years prophecy, being 3 parts of the same time period, which the RCC corrupted the understanding to initiate their "dispensations / futuristic" interpretation of scripture, to obfuscate and do "damage control", from where ALL the classical reformers ousting them as being the Antichrist.

It's been an brilliant strategy, facilitated by the RCC's Jesuit Order primarily, to where the " whole world wonders after the Beast,
Rev 13:3, including the majority of the people here in these CC forums, being deceived by Satan, the RRC and Apostate Protestantism, Rev. 16:13.

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[memberofthebride]

I agree with you about chapter 11, of Daniel, being the most difficult in the book. Daniels book and the time prophecies are foundational for understanding God's scripture and a true understanding of Jesus and His Righteousness, and the spiritual history of the world, these past 6000 years. The Book of Daniel is the "Key" to the correct understanding of Revelation, the battle between the Dragon and God's People, His Church, Rev. 12 ( and it is not those people living in the Holy Lands now ) ...Church history from the destruction of the second temple till the New Heaven & New Earth. in Rev 22

The correct understanding of the 70 Week, the 1260 year and the 2300 years prophecy, being 3 parts of the same time period, which the RCC corrupted the understanding to initiate their "dispensations / futuristic" interpretation of scripture, to obfuscate and do "damage control", from where ALL the classical reformers ousting them as being the Antichrist.

It's been an brilliant strategy, facilitated by the RCC's Jesuit Order primarily, to where the " whole world wonders after the Beast,
Rev 13:3, including the majority of the people here in these CC forums, being deceived by Satan, the RRC and Apostate Protestantism, Rev. 16:13.

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rob7 am I understanding correctly ?

""including the majority of the people here in these CC forums, being deceived by Satan, the RRC and Apostate Protestantism,""

That the whole world has been and is deceived by Satan using Rome and Protestantism,,
that What is called Christianity is mass confusion waiting to be sucked into the final deception of Satan.

 

[JustThinking]

I agree with you about chapter 11, of Daniel, being the most difficult in the book. Daniels book and the time prophecies are foundational for understanding God's scripture and a true understanding of Jesus and His Righteousness, and the spiritual history of the world, these past 6000 years. The Book of Daniel is the "Key" to the correct understanding of Revelation, the battle between the Dragon and God's People, His Church, Rev. 12 ( and it is not those people living in the Holy Lands now ) ...Church history from the destruction of the second temple till the New Heaven & New Earth. in Rev 22

The correct understanding of the 70 Week, the 1260 year and the 2300 years prophecy, being 3 parts of the same time period, which the RCC corrupted the understanding to initiate their "dispensations / futuristic" interpretation of scripture, to obfuscate and do "damage control", from where ALL the classical reformers ousting them as being the Antichrist.

It's been an brilliant strategy, facilitated by the RCC's Jesuit Order primarily, to where the " whole world wonders after the Beast,
Rev 13:3, including the majority of the people here in these CC forums, being deceived by Satan, the RRC and Apostate Protestantism, Rev. 16:13.

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Well, there is so much truth in your comment. And if one were to study each verse in Daniel 2,7, 8, 9 and 11 using a Messianic lens rather than a physical or historical one, they might see just how God predicted the coming of the little horn, his timing, the path he would take, the removal of the restrainer, the behavior, actions and the changing of God’s laws and commandments, and the preaching of a very different gospel.

Now, is there anyone in our history that could meet ALL of these claims against His Church? Everyone is looking for a supernatural boogeyman to arrive - not going to happen. God has given us so much information about this little horn. Could anyone individual or institution disobey the Word of God or the testimony of Jesus more than those who have appropriated His church?

The little horn (papacy) has indeed claimed divinity, God in earth, able to forgive sin, changed His 10 Commandments, idol worship, saint worship, Mary worship, developed a new path of salvation- their sacraments, salvation can only come through their church- pagan ceremonies and practices and a myriad of holy days, change God’s Sabbath- their sacraments only holy day God created… this list could go on and on …

They have made millions and millions of people over the past 1500 years make a choice to obey their rules, their system of worship, their laws rather than follow those of God. How many will have accepted this “mark” and will not see heaven.

Millions worship the pope, Mary, the saints and not the One (only) who gave His life for each one of us. Does anyone think this will / has been accepted by God?

Just take ONE of their doctrines- just one, and see if that alone will qualify as a “very different gospel.” That the papacy is divine, speaks for God, is God on earth. How do you think God sees this? Do you think this is a “mulligan?”

There is only ONE God - and there is no other. He is a jealous God. That is only one of so many reasons why this little horn goes against the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Rob7]

what you are not understanding

What you are not understanding is the logic of these verses of scripture and the heavenly sanctuary, God's Gospel Plan, ...

There is no need for a "Third Temple" from God's perspective. A Third Temple is something that the Catholic Church wants built to gain control of the Holy Lands, Satan wants to control the Holy Lands....for his agendas ... Remember the Crusades !!! these "so called" Jewish people, many of whom are not descendants of Abraham, but Khazarian / Ashkenazi Jews .. not blood related to Abraham, and not related to God's first covenant people to inherit "The Holy Lands. Which they claim to justify their holocaust, and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, with the full support of Trump, the US of A, ~> the second land Beast of Rev. 13. ( but that's another story )

Khazar/Irano-Turko-Slavic Hypothesis: A significant portion of the ancestry is traced to converts from the Khazar Khaganate and surrounding regions, including Slavs, Alans (Iranian nomads), Greeks, and the Gok-Turks (Ashina tribe). Thse groups converted to Judaism in the 6th and 8th centuries

This whole Zionist Movement since the early 1900s has been a Mesonic / Catholic Jesuit ( Anti-Christ ) construct, to gain control of the Holy Lands, among other agendas.

I'm NOT antisemitic !! I'm anti- Antichrist !! I'm an Adventist Christian, a True Protestant Christian, like ALL the classical Protestant Reformers where, Protesting the Catholic Church for being AntiChrist, pointing out her false doctrines, and practices, being BABYLON,
of Revelation 17-18: Babylon the Great, a corrupt world religious system opposed to God.

Revelation 17:5.
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.(KJV). "Harlots" = these apostate Protestant Churches.

That the whole world has been and is deceived by Satan using Rome and Protestantism,,

YuP !! " Apostate Protestantism" = the "false prophet" of Rev 16:13 ...
It would do you well to watch the second video in my sig ... it explains this better than I do ....

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