Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[memberofthebride]

I know, but Christians follow Christ's words in both the gospels and the epistles.

We have been learning GW about the same length of time, and heaven on a new earth is fine with me.

If they were following Christ's word, they would obey!

 

[rogerg]

God still foreknew what Esau would do. Nowhere does it say God made Esau to view the Birthright and Inheritance like he did and would just give it away. Esau still made decisions that God hated and God knew what Esau would do before he was ever born.

Don't think so. Romans 9:11 - 12 we are told that the children (Jacob and Esau) were moved "by him that calleth" - that is, God - to do what they did in accordance with His purpose for election. The "shall serve" of v12, tells us beyond doubt that it would happen in that way. The whole episode of Esau's selling of his birthright and of all that caused him to do so, were from God's will, not from Jacob or Esau.

God explains that in order for His plan of Gen 25:23 to come to fruition, for the sake of election as it is described in Rom 9, He would make Esau relinquish his birthright so that he could serve Jacob - therefore, that Esau did so was the fulfillment of God's will - there was a much greater, significant, and overarching, plan at work than just of Esau's immediate choice to sell his birthright of which that was a part of.

[Rom 9:11-12 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

[Gen 25:23 KJV] 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

 

[rogerg]

Not believing in heaven or Paul's doctrines, it is surprising you are allowed on CC,

That's absurd. The doctrines aren't Paul's they're God's, the most foundational of which, is Jesus Christ, the Savior. By
not believing in Christ as Savior, it is you who actually doesn't believe in heaven nor follow God's doctrines, but instead, in man.

 

[memberofthebride]

2 Samuel 12.23 tells about David's child who died shortly after birth. He rejoiced once the baby had died because he said he can't come to me, but I shall see him again.

ALL BABIES GO TO HEAVEN. The only reason a person goes to hell is if he rejects God's offer of salvation.

""ALL BABIES GO TO HEAVEN."" so explain why those of us that suffer for 70, 80 or more years must go through the pain and babies get a free pass --- that is not reasonable, logical or biblical

Christ taught all must REPENT be baptized --- all but babies??
that make the last 6000 years meaningless.

it makes every word of Christ a lie, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for Christ to lie.

Eddie, please read the Word .. no one goes to hell i.e. the "grave" for rejecting salvation, the word hell is the grave
Those that refuse to obey, when offered eternal life -- are cast into the Lake of Fire and are dead for eternity.

27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

find another church, the one that taught you this, is using another book.

 

[GWH]

If they were following Christ's word, they would obey!

They do (imperfectly), but not they who (perversely) do not believe in heaven or Paul's doctrines.

 

[GWH]

That's absurd. The doctrines aren't Paul's they're God's, the most foundational of which, is Jesus Christ, the Savior. By
not believing in Christ as Savior, it is you who actually doesn't believe in heaven nor follow God's doctrines, but instead, in man.

The astute will note that I supplied a quote (I do not believe in heaven or Paul's doctrines) to support my statement,
but rogerg did not, preferring a strawman statement.

 

[memberofthebride]

They do (imperfectly), but not they who (perversely) do not believe in heaven or Paul's doctrines.

it is hard to believe you would put Paul ahead of Christ especially after John said Paul is hard to understand and is leading many to destruction.

Show me clear words stating even one goes to heaven except Christ -- in 60 years none have be able to do so, you could be the first.

I do understand --- Paul can be understood to say nothing is required of you, only believe and grace, the get out of jail for free card, is there for you!

that you are accepted "JUST as you are" full of sin????

I pass! you may have my share.

 

[Roger316]

the Word is not silent on children!

Revelation and Ezekiel have the answers, which I am almost certain you will reject

Ezekiel 37 is the 2nd resurrection back to physical bodies with blood and breathing air.

I have a different take on Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones is not about the resurrection of individual people; It is a vision of the "resurrection" of the nation of Israel as a whole. The nation of Israel comes back to life, and it did come back to life in 1948. These aren't dead people coming back to life, they are alive and return to the land of Israel.

The key to Ezekiel 37 is that God explicitly interprets the vision for Ezekiel: “These bones are the whole house of Israel.” The vision is symbolic, not literal. Ezekiel is watching the nation—dead in exile, politically shattered, spiritually cut off—being brought back to life as a people. The “resurrection” is corporate, covenantal, and national, not individual.

The Jewish return to Israel, the Aliyah, began in the earth 20th century and continues unto today. There will come a time, soon, that God will pour out his spirit on them. If I am right, Revelation chapter 7 represents these as the 144,000.

 

[Roger316]

2 Samuel 12.23 tells about David's child who died shortly after birth. He rejoiced once the baby had died because he said he can't come to me, but I shall see him again.

ALL BABIES GO TO HEAVEN. The only reason a person goes to hell is if he rejects God's offer of salvation.

In my view, David wasn't saying that he would be with his son in heaven. He was saying that he would be with his son in the grave.

 

[Roger316]

God is not in the business of withholding salvation and bequeathing it to some arbitrarily.

But nice paragraph.

Was this a response to my post? I'm not sure.

 

[Roger316]

it is hard to believe you would put Paul ahead of Christ especially after John said Paul is hard to understand and is leading many to destruction.

Show me clear words stating even one goes to heaven except Christ -- in 60 years none have be able to do so, you could be the first.

I do understand --- Paul can be understood to say nothing is required of you, only believe and grace, the get out of jail for free card, is there for you!

that you are accepted "JUST as you are" full of sin????

I pass! you may have my share.

No one goes to heaven. Where did you get that Idea?

 

[memberofthebride]

I have a different take on Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones is not about the resurrection of individual people; It is a vision of the "resurrection" of the nation of Israel as a whole. The nation of Israel comes back to life, and it did come back to life in 1948. These aren't dead people coming back to life, they are alive and return to the land of Israel.

The key to Ezekiel 37 is that God explicitly interprets the vision for Ezekiel: “These bones are the whole house of Israel.” The vision is symbolic, not literal. Ezekiel is watching the nation—dead in exile, politically shattered, spiritually cut off—being brought back to life as a people. The “resurrection” is corporate, covenantal, and national, not individual.

The Jewish return to Israel, the Aliyah, began in the earth 20th century and continues unto today. There will come a time, soon, that God will pour out his spirit on them. If I am right, Revelation chapter 7 represents these as the 144,000.

 

[memberofthebride]

So, can you point out to me which was the Nation of Israel and which the Nation of Judah??

as is explain they were two nations and Christ will make them ONE again.

Which is Ephriam and which is Manasseh
and remember Ephriam is the head of the House of Israel. and He is only half Hebrew.

the problem is the Jews have never been even one nation until the tiny nation of Israel was formed

and I suspect, the Jews are defiling themselves still.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God

15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: 17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all:

and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Question; Ephriam and Manasseh are the two sons of Joseph and they are half Egyptian and half Hebrew , do you suppose they are jews?

the first time in the KJV the term Jew is used,, the Jews were at war with the House of Israel that Ephriam is head of.

Something is a little off?

can you explain any of this??

 

[GWH]

it is hard to believe you would put Paul ahead of Christ especially after John said Paul is hard to understand and is leading many to destruction.

Show me clear words stating even one goes to heaven except Christ -- in 60 years none have be able to do so, you could be the first.

I do understand --- Paul can be understood to say nothing is required of you, only believe and grace, the get out of jail for free card, is there for you!

that you are accepted "JUST as you are" full of sin????

I pass! you may have my share.

The astute will note that I did not put Paul ahead of Christ.
Where do false accusations (especially regarding Paul) come from?

 

[memberofthebride]

God is not in the business of withholding salvation and bequeathing it to some arbitrarily.

But nice paragraph.

it is much better to trust in the WORD of God then ones own understanding. this is Paul!

14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

no, God is not arbitrary, not capricious, HIS plan will be fulfilled completely to the split second and He will prepare the ones to complete His plan and they will arrive at the exact right split second to do HIS WILL.

When a person is called by the Father -- to Christ, even the moment of that calling was determined before creation.
How do you think He can foretell years like the 3 1/2 years, 1260 days before Christ returns to earth?

or was Judas Iscariot just a lucky selection?

 

[lrs68]

Don't think so. Romans 9:11 - 12 we are told that the children (Jacob and Esau) were moved "by him that calleth" - that is, God - to do what they did in accordance with His purpose for election. The "shall serve" of v12, tells us beyond doubt that it would happen in that way. The whole episode of Esau's selling of his birthright and of all that caused him to do so, were from God's will, not from Jacob or Esau.

God explains that in order for His plan of Gen 25:23 to come to fruition, for the sake of election as it is described in Rom 9, He would make Esau relinquish his birthright so that he could serve Jacob - therefore, that Esau did so was the fulfillment of God's will - there was a much greater, significant, and overarching, plan at work than just of Esau's immediate choice to sell his birthright of which that was a part of.

[Rom 9:11-12 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

[Gen 25:23 KJV] 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Nope, just the older would serve the younger nothing about God interfering. That was Rebecka who devised the plan but God foreknew about it.

 

[lrs68]

Rebecca* ^

 

[memberofthebride]

Nope, just the older would serve the younger nothing about God interfering. That was Rebecka who devised the plan but God foreknew about it.

then how does God know the future? good guesses??

If what you believe was true then God is not in charge, and everything is happenstance!

I sure hope the Father and Christ are correct and Christ is returning and will rule for 1000 years.
Do you suppose they are waiting for the right moment for the Beast to arise??

 

[rogerg]

Nope, just the older would serve the younger nothing about God interfering. That was Rebecka who devised the plan but God foreknew about it.

Incorrect. Plenty about God intervening. Read those verses closely. It's all there - it was all by God. So, I answered your question and we see the events differently, so, guess we're done.

 

[brightfame52]

Okay, makes sense to me. That it isn't the faith of the person to be saved, and that it somehow originated from Christ, is the pivotal point of the verse in my opinion. Although, and probably not directly related to the verse, I believe that the faith of Christ - Christ faith - was manifested in/by His allegiance to the Father and in His mission, and by which was salvation brought forth to fruition.

When you get a chance read this piece, it cost a few bucks, but Im sure you would find it stimulating.

Amazon.com: Faith: The Gift and Work of God Alone eBook : Smith, Mikal: Kindle Store

Buy Faith: The Gift and Work of God Alone: Read Kindle Store Reviews - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com