Is cessation an observation or theology?

[pinebeach]

Well, You guys need to start clearing the cancer wards of dying victims then.......Or you may need to LEARN what John 14:12 really means.

That is a very typical response from a cessationist or a seeming one. You simply do not understand either the times we live in or why God may withold healing....nonetheless....He does still heal but for His glory and not so people can create some kind of sensational headlines or claim a gift as though God should be in awe.

Reading some of your other posts, I'm not sure exactly what you believe but I don't mean to insult you so sorry if I did.

God is not mocked and there is an awful lot of mocking going on among 'believers' these days

 

[pinebeach]

The knowledge we have is from the word.

Truth but not in the way you think

 

[pinebeach]

Grace and peace.

God is Good. All the time. I depend on Him for all grace and truth without which, there is no real peace.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Again, not my point. Please answer my question: if you believe God commissioned you to go, why haven't you gone?

What MY point is and has been ever since we began this discussion that The Great Commission was never meant to be carried out by only the relatively small number of the original Apostles. Though it was initially given verbally to them, the Great Commission was intended to be GENERAL ORDERS for the Church as a whole. Just because God commands a small group does not mean it does not apply to many others. For instance, when Jesus taught the principles of the new life in He began by identifying those who initially heard Him say it.
24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.
(Matthew 16:25)
Using your hermeneutic we could claim that Jesus ONLY required this of the 12 disciples and no one afterward.

When you insist i answer your question if you believe God commissioned you to go, why haven't you gone? You are conflating God's GENERAL calling with His PERSONAL calling. In doing so, you are asking me to comment on the passage while assuming a premise
which I do not hold.

We also have to remember that The Great Commission actually reads this way: …18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and TEACHING them to obey ALL I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”…(Matthew 28:19-20)
As we can see, the task is not just mass evangelism. It also includes the more time-intensive task of TRAINING converts to become disciples.

It is no less impossible for the 12 Apostles to visit EVERY nation than it would be for us as individuals. You side-step this problem by reducing the scope of their mission, saying that the Commission is really only talking about nations that were KNOWN to exist AT THAT TIME in history. There is no need for such extravagant exegetical gymnastics if you simply accept the idea that some of the commands God gave to the Apostles were meant to be shared with the whole Church over the generations.

 

[Cameron143]

What MY point is and has been ever since we began this discussion that The Great Commission was never meant to be carried out by only the relatively small number of the original Apostles. Though it was initially given verbally to them, the Great Commission was intended to be GENERAL ORDERS for the Church as a whole. Just because God commands a small group does not mean it does not apply to many others. For instance, when Jesus taught the principles of the new life in He began by identifying those who initially heard Him say it.
24Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.
(Matthew 16:25)
Using your hermeneutic we could claim that Jesus ONLY required this of the 12 disciples and no one afterward.

When you insist i answer your question if you believe God commissioned you to go, why haven't you gone? You are conflating God's GENERAL calling with His PERSONAL calling. In doing so, you are asking me to comment on the passage while assuming a premise
which I do not hold.

We also have to remember that The Great Commission actually reads this way: …18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES of all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and TEACHING them to obey ALL I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”…(Matthew 28:19-20)
As we can see, the task is not just mass evangelism. It also includes the more time-intensive task of TRAINING converts to become disciples.

It is no less impossible for the 12 Apostles to visit EVERY nation than it would be for us as individuals. You side-step this problem by reducing the scope of their mission, saying that the Commission is really only talking about nations that were KNOWN to exist AT THAT TIME in history. There is no need for such extravagant exegetical gymnastics if you simply accept the idea that some of the commands God gave to the Apostles were meant to be shared with the whole Church over the generations.

I understand your point. I disagree with it and have given the reasons why. The question was simply a tool to show that while people believe the principle established by the great commission, they don't actually believe in fulfilling the mandate of the commission or they would follow it. You haven't started in Jerusalem and gone to the uttermost parts of the world. If you believe the great commission is for you, you have actually disobeyed a mandate from Jesus Himself.

 

[Anchorite]

I understand your point. I disagree with it and have given the reasons why. The question was simply a tool to show that while people believe the principle established by the great commission, they don't actually believe in fulfilling the mandate of the commission or they would follow it. You haven't started in Jerusalem and gone to the uttermost parts of the world. If you believe the great commission is for you, you have actually disobeyed a mandate from Jesus Himself.

Why should all missionaries, evangelists, and those who witness start in Jerusalem?

Acts 1:8

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

They who lived near or in Jerusalem would be witnesses in Jerusalem, but Jesus never said all Christians need to start in Jerusalem.

Thus, your entire accusatory proclamation falls apart.

Now you can begin wherever you live.

 

[Cameron143]

Why should all missionaries, evangelists, and those who witness start in Jerusalem?

Acts 1:8

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

They who lived near or in Jerusalem would be witnesses in Jerusalem, but Jesus never said all Christians need to start in Jerusalem.

Thus, your entire accusatory proclamation falls apart.

Now you can begin wherever you live.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

The great commission calls for those it is given to begin in Jerusalem and work their way out. Anyone who desires to be consistent with the original mandate would therefore need to do the same.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

That was the plan - Jerusalem first and then out to other regions. Are we supposed to assume that nothing has changed since then - that the plan has not gone far beyond where it started?

As for me, I have already lived in Jerusalem. I suppose, in your paradigm, that puts me one step ahead of you.

 

[TruthDefender]

The mandate was for the 12. Already done.

 

[Anchorite]

The mandate was for the 12. Already done.

You may want to imagine it was already done, due to your apparent hostility to missionary work, witnessing, and evangelism — but the documented fact is that the gospel has still not gone to the remote parts of the earth.

It is estimated that of the 8.08 billion people alive in the world today, 3.42 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,269 unique people groups in the world with 7,188 of them considered unreached (over 42% of the world’s population)! The vast majority (85%) of these least reached groups exist in the 10/40 window and less than 3% of missionary work is done among these people.

The 10/40 Window is a geographical rectangle stretching from North Africa across the Middle East to Asia, positioned between 10 degrees and 40 degrees north latitude. It is a highly significant term in Christian missions because it contains the majority of the world's unreached populations and lowest socio-economic conditions.

 

[TruthDefender]

You may want to imagine it was already done, due to your apparent hostility to missionary work, witnessing, and evangelism — but the documented fact is that the gospel has still not gone to the remote parts of the earth.

I’m not at all hostile to missionary work, only to incorrect ideas. If you read in context, He was talking only to the 12.

It is estimated that of the 8.08 billion people alive in the world today, 3.42 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,269 unique people groups in the world with 7,188 of them considered unreached (over 42% of the world’s population)! The vast majority (85%) of these least reached groups exist in the 10/40 window and less than 3% of missionary work is done among these people.

The 10/40 Window is a geographical rectangle stretching from North Africa across the Middle East to Asia, positioned between 10 degrees and 40 degrees north latitude. It is a highly significant term in Christian missions because it contains the majority of the world's unreached populations and lowest socio-economic conditions.

You are always missing my points. This is no exception!

If you want to fly around to different parts of the world, no one is stopping you.

All I was saying is that God doesn’t mandate this for every saint to do, due to the fact that He didn’t specify this as a mandate for everyone.

Blessings!

 

[JimiSurvivor]

The mandate was for the 12. Already done.

The early Church historically understood the Great Commission to be a call for ALL believers to join in Christ's work of sowing the seed of the gospel and harvesting souls for the kingdom. This call and labor never limited to the 12 original Apostles. In fact their work of MAKING DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS necessarily entails leading people to the Lord and training subsequent generations of disciples to join in the work of sowing the gospel so they too may obtain eternal life. Where did you get this novel idea?

Jesus Christ Himself warned us not to "hide our light under a bushel" but to LET OUR LIGHT SHINE BEFORE MEN. Why? So they would see and experience the work of God and glorify our Father in heaven. You are saying, effectively, that God wants most of us to hide our light under a bushel (Matthew 5:15-16).
Sharing God's salvation with others, and facilitating the new birth in them is the heart of God. It is the very reason He sent the Son and allowed Him to be crucified for us. But you say we do not have to do this anymore, because the work has already been done. Look at the bondage and suffering the world lives in and tell us the work is done.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

The church didn't exist when the Commission was given. It was delivered to 11 disciples.

If you believe it was given to the church, why wouldn't the church today begin in Jerusalem? That's what the Commission calls for.

The Commission is not saying that in every generation the whole project has to start all over again in Jerusalem. You do not take into account the fact that the Bible, in addition to being a repository of abstract/spiritual truths is also a NARRATIVE - a sequence of events that took place in time and space. This is how the Plan of God unfolds in the world. If this could not occur then His plan of redemption could never proceed to consummation. In my recollection, no one in the early Church ever proposed such an absurd idea.

 

[Kroogz]

That is a very typical response from a cessationist or a seeming one. You simply do not understand either the times we live in or why God may withold healing....nonetheless....He does still heal but for His glory and not so people can create some kind of sensational headlines or claim a gift as though God should be in awe.

Reading some of your other posts, I'm not sure exactly what you believe but I don't mean to insult you so sorry if I did.

God is not mocked and there is an awful lot of mocking going on among 'believers' these days

No offence or insult taken.......Healings, miracles and the supernatural happen. Hard to deny that.

 

[pinebeach]

No offence or insult taken.......Healings, miracles and the supernatural happen. Hard to deny that.

Thanks

 

[Cameron143]

The Commission is not saying that in every generation the whole project has to start all over again in Jerusalem. You do not take into account the fact that the Bible, in addition to being a repository of abstract/spiritual truths is also a NARRATIVE - a sequence of events that took place in time and space. This is how the Plan of God unfolds in the world. If this could not occur then His plan of redemption could never proceed to consummation. In my recollection, no one in the early Church ever proposed such an absurd idea.

I appreciate the discussion.

Grace and peace.

 

[TruthDefender]

The early Church historically understood the Great Commission to be a call for ALL believers to join in Christ's work of sowing the seed of the gospel and harvesting souls for the kingdom. This call and labor never limited to the 12 original Apostles. In fact their work of MAKING DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS necessarily entails leading people to the Lord and training subsequent generations of disciples to join in the work of sowing the gospel so they too may obtain eternal life. Where did you get this novel idea?

It’s not novel, it’s what the Scripture states. Yes, we are to be the light in the world, examples to others. But we can all do this by living in Christ, not necessarily going out to the ends of the earth to evangelize.

Women are not to preach, maybe teach, but certainly not to preach in the pulpit.
And many of us are to quietly work with our own hands.

We all can’t be the same things. The Body (church) of Christ has many parts (members); we all can’t be the same thing.

Sharing God's salvation with others, and facilitating the new birth in them is the heart of God. It is the very reason He sent the Son and allowed Him to be crucified for us. But you say we do not have to do this anymore, because the work has already been done.

I never said we don’t have to do this anymore. I merely implied that the apostles had already gone into all the world.

“But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Look at the bondage and suffering the world lives in and tell us the work is done.

Again, I never said the work is done, but that they had already gone into all the world.

What I said and implied, and what you think I said are 2 different things.

 

[Aussie52]

It’s not novel, it’s what the Scripture states. Yes, we are to be the light in the world, examples to others. But we can all do this by living in Christ, not necessarily going out to the ends of the earth to evangelize.

Women are not to preach, maybe teach, but certainly not to preach in the pulpit.
And many of us are to quietly work with our own hands.

We all can’t be the same things. The Body (church) of Christ has many parts (members); we all can’t be the same thing.

I never said we don’t have to do this anymore. I merely implied that the apostles had already gone into all the world.

“But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


Again, I never said the work is done, but that they had already gone into all the world.

What I said and implied, and what you think I said are 2 different things.

Your view on women not preaching & teaching, is unfortunate. No doubt based on a superficial reading of 1 Cor 14:34 & 1 Tim 2:12, not appreciating the local context the Paul is addressing.

 

[TruthDefender]

Your view on women not preaching & teaching, is unfortunate. No doubt based on a superficial reading of 1 Cor 14:34 & 1 Tim 2:12, not appreciating the local context the Paul is addressing.

My view?? Lol It’s what God stated.

The whole Bible is God breathed, but I can see you are picking and choosing and deleting the rest……

 

[Gideon300]

My view?? Lol It’s what God stated.

The whole Bible is God breathed, but I can see you are picking and choosing and deleting the rest……

Women are encouraged to teach other women. My wife has been greatly helped by Joyce Meyer as have countless other women. She also preaches principles that apply to men and women. It's no harm to listen.

Joyce Meyer submits to her husband and does not pastor a church. No one is perfect, but I believe that she is an excellent example of women getting ministry right.