Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[brightfame52]

there are around 240 million "saying", claiming they are christians in the US today
that leave around 100 million that are not.

do you believe Christ will reject, put to death, the 100 million that may or may not have any real knowledge of what Christ taught?
and of the 240 claiming to some degree, they are all saved?? even those that show up only at easter or once a year?

sorry, that is not the Jesus Christ I follow.

But: The revelation given to John by Christ does show, after the two Witnesses give their testimony, Christ will put to death 90% of earths 8 billion by the time He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

It takes two witnesses before the sentence of death can be carried out.

During the time of Noah its possible an billion people lived upon the earth, folk lived to be over 500 yrs old. But out of that large number of people only 8 were saved. Whats the percent of 8 out of billion ? Jesus said the conditions will be similar to that of Noah when He returns Matt 24 36-38

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 

[GWH]

there are around 240 million "saying", claiming they are christians in the US today
that leave around 100 million that are not.

do you believe Christ will reject, put to death, the 100 million that may or may not have any real knowledge of what Christ taught?
and of the 240 claiming to some degree, they are all saved?? even those that show up only at easter or once a year?

sorry, that is not the Jesus Christ I follow.

But: The revelation given to John by Christ does show, after the two Witnesses give their testimony, Christ will put to death 90% of earths 8 billion by the time He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

It takes two witnesses before the sentence of death can be carried out.

100% of sinners have no excuse for rejecting faith in God as revealed per Rom. 1:20.

There are two main ways God/Christ is revealed:
1. General revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).
2. Special revelation (1Pet. 1:8-12), which refers mainly to divinely inspired NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1Cor. 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (John 14:6, Acts 24:14, Phil. 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

Re hell: MFW/moral accountability only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28).

Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38). After justice is attained atheist souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

Hope this helps you put the O and N together better.

 

[memberofthebride]

During the time of Noah its possible an billion people lived upon the earth, folk lived to be over 500 yrs old. But out of that large number of people only 8 were saved. Whats the percent of 8 out of billion ? Jesus said the conditions will be similar to that of Noah when He returns Matt 24 36-38

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

God will preserve HIS tithe, 10 percent and prophecy backs that up

the number 8 is an important number, after the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles is the 8th Day, the final Holy Day of each year. It is called The last Great Day"
Christ was circumcised on the 8th day.

by the way they lived almost 1000 years

 

[memberofthebride]

100% of sinners have no excuse for rejecting faith in God as revealed per Rom. 1:20.

There are two main ways God/Christ is revealed:
1. General revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal humans have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture, beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).
2. Special revelation (1Pet. 1:8-12), which refers mainly to divinely inspired NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1Cor. 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (John 14:6, Acts 24:14, Phil. 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

Re hell: MFW/moral accountability only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (Deut. 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (Gal. 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (Isa. 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (Gal. 6:7-9, Heb. 9:27-28).

Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38). After justice is attained atheist souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14).

Hope this helps you put the O and N together better.

wow! I am sure glad I do not follow the god you do.
full of patience's and mercy and kindness he is

 

[memberofthebride]

wow! I am sure glad I do not follow the god you do.
full of patience's and mercy and kindness he is

I will add a thought.

unless God the Father calls a person to Christ and put His ONE Spirit in them ---
it is utterly impossible to obey or please Him, Christ stated clearly NOT one is Good! NO not one!

6000 years of human history has proven that fact,, only a tiny hand full have been given that ONE spirit --

So your god who knows none can obey, is going to put weak humans who can not stop killing each other, into hell for eternity ???

I pass!!!

 

[Melach]

Right. A lot of people quote:

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

But they ignore the verse after it:

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So there is synergy. God the Father doesn't just draw people to His Son, Jesus, in some random way. They must be willing and actually listen and learn from the Father. God has given all of us that innate ability. That is the Father's criteria. Whether we learn from Him or not is the deciding factor.

but all drawn will come. no exceptions

"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."

so the coming is for certain. these are then resurrected and glorified

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day."

 

[memberofthebride]

I will add a thought.

unless God the Father calls a person to Christ and put His ONE Spirit in them ---
it is utterly impossible to obey or please Him, Christ stated clearly NOT one is Good! NO not one!

6000 years of human history has proven that fact,, only a tiny hand full have been given that ONE spirit --

So your god who knows none can obey, is going to put weak humans who can not stop killing each other, into hell for eternity ???

I pass!!!

one more thing for you to thing about.

"100% of sinners have no excuse for rejecting faith in God"

by this statement -- you are actually making the case - -- it is up to each person to save themselves.
If each person, by their own will and own efforts, do not accept Christ, then Christ will torment them for eternity ???

I know I do not have the power, the ability, the will what ever is necessary to accept Jesus Christ as my Passover.

If God the Father had not called me and given me His ONE Spirit I could never be saying this to you --- in me dwelt nothing good until the Father put HIS ONE Spirit in me.

 

[lrs68]

False

If was false you would have presented specific Verses that show otherwise. Fact is Paul was speaking about Jacob/Esau and Pharaoh which all have the Hebrew peoples and Nation in common and NOTHING ELSE.

 

[lrs68]

Wrong about Rom 9 being about the Hebrews becoming a nation, and wrong about election not being mentioned in the Bible.

If was false you would have presented specific Verses that show otherwise. Fact is Paul was speaking about Jacob/Esau and Pharaoh which all have the Hebrew peoples and Nation in common and NOTHING ELSE.

 

[memberofthebride]

but all drawn will come. no exceptions

"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away."

so the coming is for certain. these are then resurrected and glorified

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day."

what you are overlooking, if any of this requires our efforts --- we are working, we are earning eternal life.
Eternal life is a Free Gift -- it can not come by our efforts,
We can reject the call, that is our option. and we are not forced to respond, to accept

The Holy Spirit is called "The Helper" without the Father's One Spirit doing everything necessary, then it is not a gift!

The Children of Israel could not obey for 40 years --they did not have the Helper, the Father's Spirit.
It is the Father's spirit that does the work that gives us the willingness and power to obey.

Christ stated clearly: 30 I can of mine own self -- do nothing:
as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 

[HeIsHere]

This verse alone destroys the concept of regeneration before the cross along with Total depravity.


Hebrews 9:15
For this reason, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the FIRST covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. And the next verse proves that they had to wait for the death of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:16-17
For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. [17] For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Without the death of Jesus, there is no regeneration.

Therefore, those who were declared righteous in the old covenant, were declared righteous without ever being regenerated.

Their faith happened without regeneration.

Total depravity is an absolute falsehood created to support a false system.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sure.

• Ephesians 1:6 — God predestines and adopts “to the praise of the glory of His grace.”
• Ephesians 1:12 — believers exist “to the praise of His glory.”
• Ephesians 1:14 — the Spirit seals us “to the praise of His glory.”
• God made us alive “so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace” (Eph 2:7).
• “to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy” (Rom 9:23)
• Isaiah 43:7 — “everyone… whom I created for my glory.”
• Isaiah 48:9–11 — “For my name’s sake I defer my anger… My glory I will not give to another.”
• Ezekiel 36:22–23 — God restores Israel “for the sake of my holy name… and the nations will know that I am the LORD.”

You do understand that verses need to be understood in context right along with using following the grammatical sentence structure/verbiage so that it is understood how the writer intended it to be understood?

 

[brightfame52]

If was false you would have presented specific

But what you said wasnt presented with specifics

 

[rogerg]

If was false you would have presented specific Verses that show otherwise. Fact is Paul was speaking about Jacob/Esau and Pharaoh which all have the Hebrew peoples and Nation in common and NOTHING ELSE.

Wrong again - you're on a roll. I had a feeling you would say that, but it is your responsibility, not ours, to research/verify
before you post, and which, it is very obvious that you didn't do. Besides, it will do you good to actually have to look stuff up in Scripture in order to learn rather than of just arbitrarily saying stuff.

 

[memberofthebride]

This verse alone destroys the concept of regeneration before the cross along with Total depravity.


Hebrews 9:15
For this reason, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the FIRST covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. And the next verse proves that they had to wait for the death of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:16-17
For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. [17] For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Without the death of Jesus, there is no regeneration.

Therefore, those who were declared righteous in the old covenant, were declared righteous without ever being regenerated.

Their faith happened without regeneration.

Total depravity is an absolute falsehood created to support a false system.

can you define "regeneration and total depravity" I am not familiar with the terms

 

[GWH]

I will add a thought.

unless God the Father calls a person to Christ and put His ONE Spirit in them ---
it is utterly impossible to obey or please Him, Christ stated clearly NOT one is Good! NO not one!

6000 years of human history has proven that fact,, only a tiny hand full have been given that ONE spirit --

So your god who knows none can obey, is going to put weak humans who can not stop killing each other, into hell for eternity ???

I pass!!!

Apparently you have difficulty understanding English, which makes it hard for you to understand "After justice is attained atheist souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14)", but never fear--I was also an English teacher, so we should be able to work through this.

I will begin by pointing out that destroyed souls are put out of existence for eternity.

Also, "evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma" means that they put themselves in hell, so God should not be blamed for their choices.

Would you prefer that evil people NOT experience appropriate justice or reap what they have sown but instead receive forgiveness without repenting? That would mean God abets sin by not enforcing moral rules.

 

[lrs68]

But what you said wasnt presented with specifics

I was answering the other Member and discussing the Verses he already presented. Therefore, this post is inaccurate from you.

 

[lrs68]

Wrong again - you're on a roll. I had a feeling you would say that, but it is your responsibility, not ours, to research/verify
before you post, and which, it is very obvious that you didn't do. Besides, it will do you good to actually have to look stuff up in Scripture in order to learn rather than of just arbitrarily saying stuff.

You presented the Verses to begin with and thus being part of chapter 9 I went ahead and showed Paul's entire thought which is his discussion about the Election of the Hebrew peoples and Israel.

 

[memberofthebride]

Apparently you have difficulty understanding English, which makes it hard for you to understand "After justice is attained atheist souls are destroyed forever (per John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14)", but never fear--I was also an English teacher, so we should be able to work through this.

I will begin by pointing out that destroyed souls are put out of existence for eternity.

Also, "evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma" means that they put themselves in hell, so God should not be blamed for their choices.

Would you prefer that evil people NOT experience appropriate justice or reap what they have sown but instead receive forgiveness without repenting? That would mean God abets sin by not enforcing moral rules.

those that refuse to obey, knowingly, willingly refuse to obey when they get their one opportunity for eternal life Are cast into the Lake of fire and they cease to exist for eternity.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

mercy. no torture for ever, in a split second its over.

but the masses out there, that do not have a clue,, that have been lied to by churches, christian and pagan,
they will all get their one opportunity, some few now and the many later after the 1000 years.

Are you obeying Jesus Christ?? willingly?? or are you exempt because of grace??

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Christ is my Master and I obey Him.

 

[NightTwister]

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Christ is my Master and I obey Him.

Must be awesome to be perfect like you.