Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[rogerg]

It is noteworthy that Paul has finished preaching the Gospel by the end of chapter 5. Beginning in chapter 6, he answers a series of rhetorical questions that address objections to the Gospel his readers will likely face as they return to Rome. Chapter 9 addresses a specific question about God's promise to Israel. We could formulate the question this way. Paul, your gospel can't be true because God promised to circumcise the hearts of all of Israel, and that hasn't taken place.

Short answer:
Paul’s opponents argue, “Your gospel can’t be true, Paul, because God promised to save all Israel — and clearly not all Israelites believe in Jesus.” Paul’s answer cuts deeper than they expect: God’s promise was never grounded in ethnicity but in election. Not all who are descended from Israel belong to the Israel of the promise. God has always defined His people by His own choosing, not by bloodline or national membership. So when God finally saves “all Israel,” it will be the Israel He has chosen, the ones whose hearts He circumcises by His Spirit. The promise stands firm — but it applies to the Israel God creates, not the Israel people assume.

I’m not sure I follow you entirely but I think I agree, so let me restate what I believe you mean: you believe Romans 9 is not about the leadership of the earthly nation of Israel, but instead, exclusively about spiritual Israel – the Israel of God - whose members are brought into it out of all peoples, kindreds, nations, and tongues, but only by God’s election of them through His mercy, and grace by Jesus Christ.

 

[memberofthebride]

And more than that, NightTwister, it seems to me that if someone tries to fulfill the law only to gain some benefit from doing so, they are using obedience for a purpose beyond the law’s true intent. That is a subtle but important distinction. To be sincere and pure, a person must desire to fulfill the law simply for its own sake, not for any advantage that comes from it; otherwise, they fall short.
Hope that makes sense.

are there any that even slightly understand the purpose of God's HOLY Law?

God want all to dwell together in unity!

the Torah is God's guide to unity, to peace, to happiness to living together with out conflict which the world is full of today.

Yes I obey the Law because it is not painful to do so, in fact it eliminates pain
when I lived the worlds way --- it was very painful, and some friends and relatives, it killed early.
I am at peace and my life is full, I am so blessed it is embarrassing.

Good luck living your way -- you will need all the luck you can buy.

 

[rogerg]

are there any that even slightly understand the purpose of God's HOLY Law?

There is only one holy law of God's that brings eternal life and that is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. For those God places under it, they are made free of law of sin and death (the law of works)

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[2Co 1:20 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 said:

1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross/gospel is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

In the original saved has the definite article, specifying definitly to whom it is the Cross is the power of God to !​

reneweddaybyday said:

please point out "the definite article" before the word "saved" [Greek = σῳζομένοις (sōzomenois), which means "being saved"] ... thanks.​

Im familiar

I didn't ask if you were "familiar" ...

again, please point out "the definite article" before the word "saved" [Greek = σῳζομένοις (sōzomenois), which means "being saved"] ... thanks.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Nestle 1904

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστίν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστίν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστί, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστι.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition

ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστί, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις Θεοῦ ἐστι.​

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 1:18 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν​

1 Corinthians 1:18 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν, τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν.​

which Greek word is "the definite article" before the word "saved"?
.

 

[Roger316]

I’m not sure I follow you entirely but I think I agree, so let me restate what I believe you mean: you believe Romans 9 is not about the leadership of the earthly nation of Israel, but instead, exclusively about spiritual Israel – the Israel of God - whose members are brought into it out of all peoples, kindreds, nations, and tongues, but only by God’s election of them through His mercy, and grace by Jesus Christ.

Not exactly. Undoubtedly, the body of Christ consists of spiritual people from all peoples, kindreds, nations, and tongues. This fulfills God's promise to Abraham. But God made another promise to Israel, that his kinsmen will become spiritual children of Abraham all at once.

Consider Jeremiah 31:34

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”​

Jeremiah 31:34 describes a future moment when the entire covenant community knows God directly, without mediation or instruction, because the Spirit has transformed every heart. That has never happened in Israel’s history, nor in the church age, nor in the modern era. The New Covenant was inaugurated by Christ, but its full realization awaits the day when God removes Israel’s hardness, pours out His Spirit on all flesh, and brings the whole nation into a unified, Spirit‑given knowledge of Himself. This is why Jeremiah’s promise cannot be reduced to individual salvation experiences; it is a corporate, national transformation in which “they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Malachi 4 and Joel 2–3 describe the very events that lead to this fulfillment: a Spirit‑driven turning of hearts, a massive outpouring of prophetic power, and a national repentance before the Day of the Lord. Pentecost was the beginning of this pattern, but not its completion; the cosmic signs, the national restoration, and the universal knowledge of God did not occur. These prophets all point to the same future moment when God gathers, cleanses, and renews His people so thoroughly that no one needs to say, “Know the Lord,” because the entire covenant community already knows Him. In this way, Malachi and Joel supply the mechanism, and Jeremiah supplies the result.

This prophetic background is exactly what underlies Paul’s defense of the gospel in Romans 9, because Paul insists that God has not failed to keep His promises to Israel; the full New Covenant transformation that Jeremiah foresaw simply has not happened yet. Israel’s present unbelief does not cancel God’s word — it proves that the moment when all will know the Lord is still future, just as Malachi 4 and Joel 2–3 describe. Paul’s argument only makes sense if Jeremiah’s promise awaits a future, Spirit‑given renewal of Israel, which is why he can affirm both Israel’s current hardness and God’s unbreakable covenant faithfulness in the same breath.

 

[Roger316]

are there any that even slightly understand the purpose of God's HOLY Law?

God want all to dwell together in unity!

the Torah is God's guide to unity, to peace, to happiness to living together with out conflict which the world is full of today.

Yes I obey the Law because it is not painful to do so, in fact it eliminates pain
when I lived the worlds way --- it was very painful, and some friends and relatives, it killed early.
I am at peace and my life is full, I am so blessed it is embarrassing.

Good luck living your way -- you will need all the luck you can buy.

You are free to do as much of the Law as you like. But the reason why God gave Israel the Law was not to exist as a universal moral code for all of humanity. It was given as the terms of a covenant between God and the nation of Israel.

 

[rogerg]

But God made another promise to Israel, that his kinsmen will become spiritual children of Abraham all at once.

That is fulfilled in/by the elect from all peoples, kindreds tongues and tribes. God divorced the earthly nation of Israel for their spiritual fornication, so they no longer are His people nor have they any special status with Him - all people stand on exactly the same ground before Him - physical lineage counts for nothing - it is only by His election. Those whom God places into the true church, the elect alone, are now His people.

[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[brightfame52]

please point out "the definite article" before the word "saved" [Greek = σῳζομένοις (sōzomenois), which means "being saved"] ... thanks.

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν

Both tois and σῳζομένοις are dative plural masculine , so the article ,matches with the verb "which are saved" in the verse

same thing with aforementioned "them that perish"

I didn't ask if you were "familiar" ..

I dont care, I told you anyway

 

[Roger316]

That is fulfilled in/by the elect from all peoples, kindreds tongues and tribes. God divorced the earthly nation of Israel for their spiritual fornication, so they no longer are His people nor have they any special status with Him - all people stand on exactly the same ground before Him - physical lineage counts for nothing - it is only by His election. Those whom God places into the true church, the elect alone, are now His people.

[Gal 3:28-29 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Well, it isn't true that each man and his brother knows the lord. There is no people, kindred, or tribe for which this is true. Only a fraction of the world's population knows the Lord.

However, Jeremiah predicts a time when the house of Judah and the house of Israel will all know the Lord, from the least to the greatest.

 

[memberofthebride]

There is only one holy law of God's that brings eternal life and that is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. For those God places under it, they are made free of law of sin and death (the law of works)

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[2Co 1:20 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

I see what you believe -- here it is expressed Truthfully! and Paul would agree.

The Sacrifice Christ made by willingly dying on the stake, freed those that repent of their sins,
freed those that repent from transgressing the Holy Commandments which brings death when transgressed
and by pouring His Blood on the ground, Jesus Christ paid the penalty of death they were under for their transgressions of the Commandments.

What I am seeing; folks are ""wording" doctrines and beliefs to hide the truth, ---the truth they have sinned and are under the penalty of death.

the churches are teaching grace. no repentance, no obeying, just believe and you are freed from the laws of sin

Jesus Christ gave Paul the words to write, known what the result would be,

From Cain until this moment, people refuse to obey the word of God, refuse to repent.
the time of the end is coming. WHY? Sin

 

[memberofthebride]

You are free to do as much of the Law as you like. But the reason why God gave Israel the Law was not to exist as a universal moral code for all of humanity. It was given as the terms of a covenant between God and the nation of Israel.

here is why it was given
Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity!

the Torah is our instruction book from God the Father and Jesus Christ on how dwelling together in unity is accomplished, the rules that produce unity.

and until Christ is on earth as KING of Kings , brethren will never dwell together in unity -- they will just keep on killing each other with greater and better weapons as they have for 6000 years.

 

[rogerg]

Well, it isn't true that each man and his brother knows the lord. There is no people, kindred, or tribe for which this is true. Only a fraction of the world's population knows the Lord.

However, Jeremiah predicts a time when the house of Judah and the house of Israel will all know the Lord, from the least to the greatest.

Yes, eventually all of the elect know the Lord, but they learn it individually after each becomes born again and they continue to learn until the end of their lives, or the end of the world, whichever comes first. It is called progressive sanctification. No one immediately learns everything at the instant of salvation nor a selected group all at once. Jer 31:34 states that all will know Him but not that all will know Him instantly at the same time - just that that knowledge will happen, not when it will happen. And as I mentioned about God's divorce of Israel, it will not happen to the earthly Jews simply because they are of earthly Israel - only elect Jews, as with all of the elect - will come to truly know the Lord.

 

[rogerg]

I see what you believe -- here it is expressed Truthfully! and Paul would agree.

The Sacrifice Christ made by willingly dying on the stake, freed those that repent of their sins,
freed those that repent from transgressing the Holy Commandments which brings death when transgressed
and by pouring His Blood on the ground, Jesus Christ paid the penalty of death they were under for their transgressions of the Commandments.

What I am seeing; folks are ""wording" doctrines and beliefs to hide the truth, ---the truth they have sinned and are under the penalty of death.

the churches are teaching grace. no repentance, no obeying, just believe and you are freed from the laws of sin

Jesus Christ gave Paul the words to write, known what the result would be,

From Cain until this moment, people refuse to obey the word of God, refuse to repent.
the time of the end is coming. WHY? Sin

Nothing whatsoever is either required not permitted from the elect to become saved. It is a free gift from the
Father's exceeding mercy and grace through Jesus Christ, the Savior. Everything associated to salvation, comes to someone
from salvation, not being requirement to become saved. Jesus Christ is the Savior, man is not, and that is what makes it
purely by grace and not by works

 

[memberofthebride]

Nothing whatsoever is either required not permitted from the elect to become saved. It is a free gift from the
Father's exceeding mercy and grace through Jesus Christ, the Savior. Everything associated to salvation, comes to someone
from salvation, not being requirement to become saved. Jesus Christ is the Savior, man is not, and that is what makes it
purely by grace and not by works

I am learning why the time of the End is coming and it must come. the confusion is spreading fast..

 

[GWH]

And more than that, NightTwister, it seems to me that if someone tries to fulfill the law only to gain some benefit from doing so, they are using obedience for a purpose beyond the law’s true intent. That is a subtle but important distinction. To be sincere and pure, a person must desire to fulfill the law simply for its own sake, not for any advantage that comes from it; otherwise, they fall short.
Hope that makes sense.

Not really. The proper motivation for seeking heaven is desire for the advantage/benefit/sake of love and joy.

 

[GWH]

I am learning why the time of the End is coming and it must come. the confusion is spreading fast..

So I've noticed. #457?

 

[NightTwister]

not sure how to answer.

I will live in this evil world striving to obey until I die or if there is persecution and they take my life or the First resurrection, one way or the other thats the end of this life, the end of having to endure.

I obey the Torah to the degree possible in this world, I follow the wisdom Christ gave us, and I'll give you an example of one I did not follow. I got in a law suit with a client and wanted to prove i was right and went to court. cost me 10's of thousands. later I read when going to court settle on the way -- the judge might put you in jail.
that is one I will always follow from now on,

So it's a crap shoot. Maybe it's enough, maybe it's not. Your God is too small.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Ὁ λόγος γὰρ ὁ τοῦ σταυροῦ τοῖς μὲν ἀπολλυμένοις μωρία ἐστίν τοῖς δὲ σῳζομένοις ἡμῖν δύναμις θεοῦ ἐστιν

Both tois and σῳζομένοις are dative plural masculine , so the article ,matches with the verb "which are saved" in the verse

same thing with aforementioned "them that perish"

Also please note ... the Greek verb sōzomenois translated "saved" in 1 Cor 1:18 is in the present tense ... meaning the saving occurs in actual time and, according to 1 Cor 1:21, the saving occurs at the time a person believes the gospel which, according to 1 Cor 1:18, is the power of God to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (verb, present, active).

salvation is wholly of God Who saves ... God saves them that believe at the time they believe.

.

 

[GWH]

Also please note ... the Greek verb sōzomenois translated "saved" in 1 Cor 1:18 is in the present tense ... meaning the saving occurs in actual time and, according to 1 Cor 1:21, the saving occurs at the time a person believes the gospel which, according to 1 Cor 1:18, is the power of God to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (verb, present, active).

salvation is wholly of God Who saves ... God saves them that believe at the time they believe.

.

...and for as long as they continue to believe (Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

 

[brightfame52]

Also please note ... the Greek verb sōzomenois translated "saved" in 1 Cor 1:18 is in the present tense

I already know that so one must be in a saved state or condition, and its passive voice, they are being saved, the cross is the power of God only to them being saved.