Is cessation an observation or theology?

[TruthDefender]

You said your church does not use musicians because there is not NT example of it. I am sure your church uses many things that are not exemplified in the NT.

You post on an online Christian forum. But there is no NT example of this either.

You live in contradictions.

No I don’t. Think about it!

The things that I stated refer to the basic worship pattern found in the NC (singing, prayer, communion/ Lord’s Supper, sermon). These things matter, not in using superfluous materials. The Bible class is not during worship.

If you change the basic given pattern by adding instruments, extraneous vocal groups/ bands, food drives, etc, you’ve added to His word. Why? Because you’ve altered the basic worship pattern.

The usage of materials like Bibles, song books, projectors, Zoom platforms are not altering the basic pattern. We still worship with the same basics that you see in the NC.

There are examples of each, but I’m sure you’ll deny them.

 

[Anchorite]

No I don’t. Think about it!

The things that I stated refer to the basic worship pattern found in the NC (singing, prayer, communion/ Lord’s Supper, sermon). These things matter, not in using superfluous materials. The Bible class is not during worship.

If you change the basic given pattern by adding instruments, extraneous vocal groups/ bands, food drives, etc, you’ve added to His word. Why? Because you’ve altered the basic worship pattern.

The usage of materials like Bibles, song books, projectors, Zoom platforms are not altering the basic pattern. We still worship with the same basics that you see in the NC.

There are examples of each, but I’m sure you’ll deny them.

If you hold to the old Regulative Principle of Worship, you cannot have anything in your church that has no example in the New Testament.

This is just a holier than thou legalism. Since musical instruments were used in Old Testament worship, it is very likely they were used in NT worship.

To be consistent, your church would have to prohibit all these items that are not mentioned in the NT:

hymnals

pianos

organs

collection plates

pledge cards

creed recitations

choirs

pews

pulpits

crosses

microphones

projectors

Zoom meetings

service video streaming

church bulletins

carpet

flags

seminaries

Bible colleges

daily devotions books

announcements

book clubs

nurseries

Sunday school

floral arrangements

tracts

coffee and donuts

 

[Lamar]

well, the hate i have seen here is very interesting. yet none of you have provided biblical text to support your position. It is very funny.


You use things outside of the word of Gos to prove your position. Feelings, personal experiences or the lack therefore. As if GOD needed you to validate HIS Healing or word LOL.

I need Biblical support to prove that the supernatural claims of the Pentecostal movement is false???

Are you serious?

How about you give me Biblical support that the supernatural claims of the Pentecostal movement is true.

I can't wait to see what you find.

 

[Anchorite]

If people want to deny and mock divine miracle healings, let them remove their faith in God and put all their trust in the world and its doctors and medicines. I use both the medical profession and direct divine healing in my life.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

The Jewish people had a strong and very ancient tradition of females and males being involved in what we might call "music ministry"
2 Chronicles 5:12 lists who were the Levitical leaders of this ministry even gives details about what actually happened:
…12 all the Levitical singers—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps, and lyres, accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.

This passage which occurred at the dedication of Solomon's Temple, shows the significant role the singers and musicians play in inviting God to come and make Himself known to them:
13 The trumpeters and singers joined together to praise and thank the LORD with one voice. They lifted up their voices, accompanied by trumpets, cymbals, and musical instruments, in praise to the LORD: “For He is good; His loving devotion endures forever.” And the temple, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud 14 so that the priests could not stand there to minister because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.…
(2 Chronicles 5:13-14)
I have on rare occasions experienced such life changing times as this, and, I assure you, I felt no compulsion to laugh or perform any outrageous acrobatics. Usually, all I could do is fall on my face and weep. I have read about other Churches down through history who have experienced similar things. It was not planned, contrived, or instigated with the use of mood music, stage smoke or lights

 

[TruthDefender]

If you hold to the old Regulative Principle of Worship, you cannot have anything in your church that has no example in the New Testament.

Old regulative principle?? Man made term from a man made doctrine!
Well whatever this term is, it’s not us, and it doesn’t represent the NT church; I already explained that above.

This is just a holier than thou legalism. Since musical instruments were used in Old Testament worship, it is very likely they were used in NT worship.

There is absolutely no example in the NT of the church using any kind of musical instruments.

I like the lyre and mandolin, but nope…can’t use them. An honest NT church sticks to the the pattern.

To be consistent, your church would have to prohibit all these items that are not mentioned in the NT:

hymnals

pianos

organs

collection plates

pledge cards

creed recitations

choirs

pews

pulpits

crosses

microphones

projectors

Zoom meetings

service video streaming

church bulletins

carpet

flags

seminaries

Bible colleges

daily devotions books

announcements

book clubs

nurseries

Sunday school

floral arrangements

tracts

coffee and donuts

Please read what I had stated before, someplace up above. I already explained these things.

 

[Anchorite]

There is absolutely no example in the NT of the church using any kind of musical instruments.

There is absolutely no example in the NT of the church using any kind of online social media.

 

[Cameron143]

Music was added to worship during the reign of David. It's difficult to read Psalm 150 and not believe they struck up the band. The absence of musical instruments being mentioned in the NT does not negate their use. Anything not expressly forbidden in scripture is allowed; music and instruments especially having OT sanction.

 

[CS1]

I need Biblical support to prove that the supernatural claims of the Pentecostal movement is false???

Are you serious?

How about you give me Biblical support that the supernatural claims of the Pentecostal movement is true.

I can't wait to see what you find.

What is funny only those who seek the false find it. There is biblical support GOD does do miracles which you agreed. Jesus said there would also those false works and lying signs and wonders. Jesus did not say all will be. That is your own bias and false Narrative.

The Context of what is known as Pentecost and that experience are seen in Acts chapter 1 and 2. Also in the other chapter I provided as a normative. Pentecostals are not the only ones who have seen this work of the Holy Spirit. You should get out more.

I don't follow a movement LOL WE follow the move of GOD big difference. Those like you seek a sign and there will be none give you Jesus said. I an many other are of the People where Signs follow after us meaning. God confirm HIS word with salvations, healings and deliverances. IF you are not seeing that maybe you are in a dead church. How any people get saved in your fellowship each Sunday? Or are you to good for church .

 

[JimiSurvivor]

There is absolutely no example in the NT of the church using any kind of online social media.

To NT believers the Law and the prophets WERE the word of God which is why the Apostles used the ancient writings to prove that Jesus was the Lamb, that His resurrection and ascension represented His assuming the ongoing role of Intercessor and Redeemer

 

[TruthDefender]

What is funny only those who seek the false find it. There is biblical support GOD does do miracles which you agreed. Jesus said there would also those false works and lying signs and wonders. Jesus did not say all will be. That is your own bias and false Narrative.

The Context of what is known as Pentecost and that experience are seen in Acts chapter 1 and 2. Also in the other chapter I provided as a normative. Pentecostals are not the only ones who have seen this work of the Holy Spirit. You should get out more.

I don't follow a movement LOL WE follow the move of GOD big difference. Those like you seek a sign and there will be none give you Jesus said. I a many other are of the People where Signs follow after us meaning. God confirm HIS word with salvations, healings and deliverances. IF you are not seeing that maybe you are in a dead church. How any people get saved in your fellowship each Sunday? Or are you to good for church .

Miraculous miracles were to be seen. There are none today. Yes, miracles happen, I believe through prayer, but not the miraculous variety to be seen.

 

[TruthDefender]

Music was added to worship during the reign of David. It's difficult to read Psalm 150 and not believe they struck up the band. The absence of musical instruments being mentioned in the NT does not negate their use. Anything not expressly forbidden in scripture is allowed; music and instruments especially having OT sanction.

Then you are adding to the pattern. There is a clear difference between the synagogue and church. They did a lot of things in the OT that we are not to do today under the NC.

 

[Cameron143]

Then you are adding to the pattern. There is a clear difference between the synagogue and church. They did a lot of things in the OT that we are not to do today under the NC.

You should do as your conscience bears witness to you.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

If people want to deny and mock divine miracle healings, let them remove their faith in God and put all their trust in the world and its doctors and medicines. I use both the medical profession and direct divine healing in my life.

I also see no contradiction in seeking BOTH medical help and the assistance of God through prayer.
Asa, the good king who fell from his faith was wrong to seek out the help of physicians only because he did so INSTEAD OF seeking the help of God:
12 In the thirty-ninth year of his reign, Asa became diseased in his feet, and his malady became increasingly severe. Yet even in his illness he did not seek the LORD, but only the physicians. 13 So in the forty-first year of his reign, Asa died
(2 Chronicles 16:12)

Every physical and mental problem is not due to spiritual causes which is why Jesus sometimes cast out demons while, at other times He healed them. We Christians should to be able to discern what is going on in a person before we can pray strategically for them or deal with their souls effectively.

To do this we must depend on the Holy Spirit who indwells us. Paul referred to Christians who are guided by the Spirit the SPIRITUAL man. He contrasted such people with with those who are guided primarily or solely by his soul (i.e., his mind, will and emotions)
14 The natural (soulish) man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)

Not only does walking in the Spirit include having insight into the scriptures, it also entails being guided by the Spirit in ministering to others and being open to receiving on going wisdom and understanding from Him.
15 The spiritual man judges (or discerns) all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.…
(1 Corinthians 2:15)
In other words, the actions of a person walking by the Holy Spirit will not be completely comprehensible to a soulish person

When I was a teen, my brother and I dealt with a woman who was a self-professed witch. I was inexperienced but, having been delivered out of the occult myself, I knew that the Devil was real. From our various encounters with this person, I saw the clash of light and darkness. Being a Baptist at the time, I brought my Baptist Pastor into this struggle. Although he had little practical knowledge of this sort of work he accepted the case, applying what he had learned from the Bible. He became aware that what the word said on the subject was not an archaic fantasy but reality. Many years later, he told me that he had learned more about dealing with demons then than he had ever learned in seminary.

 

[Lamar]

Music was added to worship during the reign of David. It's difficult to read Psalm 150 and not believe they struck up the band. The absence of musical instruments being mentioned in the NT does not negate their use. Anything not expressly forbidden in scripture is allowed; music and instruments especially having OT sanction.

A acapella was slowly removed from churches starting around 700 AD by the Catholic church leadership. It was strongly fought against by the different congregations particularly in the East. This was one of the many issues in the Great Schism of 1054.

To this day the Orthodox Church only uses a acapella music during their services. As does other churches throughout the world.

The very word "a acapella" comes from the Latin - according of the church.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Then you are adding to the pattern. There is a clear difference between the synagogue and church. They did a lot of things in the OT that we are not to do today under the NC.

The central issue here is not about the practices of the Synagogue but about what the word itself tells us to do. Paul instructed Timothy using as his referrance what :

…15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…
(2 Timothy 3:15-17)

a. From Paul's statement that Timothy had known the Holy Scriptures from infancy we see that the Apostle was not referring to the NT scriptures which, at the time of Timothy's infancy had not yet been written. Instead, Paul was referring to the OT writings known as the Tenach, which included the Law and the Prophets.
b. Could the redemptive plan of God have been known and understood, even before the NT existed? Evidently so. When Jesus met with some followers on the Road to Emmaus He told them:

25 Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27 And beginning with MOSES and all the PROPHETS, He explained to them what was written in ALL THE SCRIPTURES about Himself
(Luke 24:25-27)

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Miraculous miracles were to be seen. There are none today. Yes, miracles happen, I believe through prayer, but not the miraculous variety to be seen.

A. This is what you seem to be saying
1) First you flatly say that THERE ARE NO MIRACLES today.
2) However, then you go on to stipulate that while miracles STILL DO HAPPEN they only come about as ANSWERS to PRAYER
3) Next, you qualify your proposition further saying that modern miracles ARE NOT THE VARIETY that CAN BE SEEN

B. You seem to be positing some essential difference between healing that comes about through the exercise of the charismatic GIFT OF HEALING and that which comes about as an ANSWER TO PRAYER

1) I see no evidence in the text that Paul was making such a distinction

2) In fact, I see no evidence that healings, or miracles could be performed because of some permanent endowment which grants to an individual the power to use anytime and on anyone he chooses.

3) Not even Jesus, in His incarnate form operated this way. By His own admission the power to heal was not His. It belonged to the Father and was to be used to further the Father's will. The divine agent that actually made God's power available to the needy person is the Holy Spirit.

4) In Luke 8:45-46 see this transfer of borrowed power when the woman touched Jesus
“Who touched Me?” Jesus asked. But they all denied it. “Master,” said Peter, “the people are crowding and pressing against You.” 46 But Jesus declared, “Someone touched Me, for I know that power has gone out from Me.”

5). The scriptures say nothing about Jesus praying for her. However, one thing we can assume is that the woman herself had been praying for herself.

6) The fact that God had granted Jesus the power to heal suggests that the GIFT of HEALING is granted by God to pass on to some needy individual through a person who served as an agent. At the same time, healing was an answer to prayer - not to Jesus prayer but to the woman's

7) Notice how easily your assumed dichotomy between healing as a gift and healing as an answer to prayer breaks down

8) You have assumed a great deal given that relatively little is said about how the GIFT OF HEALING actually operated in the NT,

9) Here is something else to consider: When Ananaias healed Saul of his blindness was he exercising the GIFT of HEALING or was he or did this come about as an answer to Saul's prayers OR was it an answer to Ananaias prayers for Saul?

 

[pinebeach]

Worship is when all the members are in the assembly listening to the preacher. Worship would include communion, prayer, singing, sermon (although we all sing acapela).

We try to do things according to Scripture.

“Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭14‬:‭34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

That's what I thought but if you are a cessationist and the rest of your church believe the same, you are not doing things according to scripture.

No need to respond with the so called proof of cessationism because there is no proof other than incorrect understanding

 

[pinebeach]

There are no examples of cars either, your point?

or the web so why are you using it? smh

 

[pinebeach]

If people want to deny and mock divine miracle healings, let them remove their faith in God and put all their trust in the world and its doctors and medicines. I use both the medical profession and direct divine healing in my life.

I've stated the following more than once in this forum and maybe even in this thread:

People say they believe in God who is Spirit and invisible

People say they believe in Jesus who died and was brought back to life by God who is Spirit and invisible

People believe Jesus did all these miracles

People believe that if they believe in all above the above and trust in Jesus for salvation, they will avoid going to hell since that is what the Bible states. Just forget about all the spiritual stuff since that no longer applies.

I have a problem believing in these people who believe all of the above and yet somehow now believe that God has retired, more or less since scripture is 'completed' and relegate any passages that indicate we should be living a life of faith through invisible Beings or that God, having retired, no longer hands out spiritual gifts for the building up of the believers.

I suppose angels and demons and the devil himself are also simply retired and awaiting the end of the world and playing cards since there is nothing else to do since all spirituality is past tense.

I suggest that people who think that way are slowly dying since only the Spirit gives life. Some are just dying not too slowly.