False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[DavidLamb]

If God mandates something "to be essential in order to be saved" then no one has the right to label it as a work of merit.

Yes, the important word is "if." If indeed God had mandated baptism as an essential prerequisite for salvation, the apostles who told the jailer that to be saved, he need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ must have been mistaken.

 

[Lovette]

I agree with you, scripture must be understood in both the immediate context, and within the greater context o h bible as a whole. I would dad one thing.

We must also understand the bible in the cultural and linguistic context it was written to fully understand. This takes time and considerble work but is well worth the effort.

Great post BTW!

There're certain bible verses that can be picked to espouse genocide, abortion, racism, slavery, socialism. It takes context and wisdom to understand the text correctly.

 

[GWH]

Here is the blindness. 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I wonder if 2Cor. 4:3 explains why many heretics such as tulipists seem so calloused.

 

[GWH]

Yes, the important word is "if." If indeed God had mandated baptism as an essential prerequisite for salvation, the apostles who told the jailer that to be saved, he need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ must have been mistaken.

Yes, IF indicates MFW and God's condition for forgiveness: faith (cf. John 8).

 

[GWH]

I agree with you, scripture must be understood in both the immediate context, and within the greater context o h bible as a whole. I would dad one thing.

We must also understand the bible in the cultural and linguistic context it was written to fully understand. This takes time and considerble work but is well worth the effort.

Great post BTW!

Yes, although the essential kerygma/GRFS is simple enough for a child to understand ,
so the effort must be merely fine-tuning--going from Acts 16:31 to a complete creed,
then learning didachaic doctrines in order to grow spiritually toward maturity (Eph. 4:11-15).

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes, IF indicates MFW and God's condition for forgiveness: faith (cf. John 8).

My post was in the context of replying to what Lamar had written: "If God mandates something "to be essential in order to be saved" '

 

[GWH]

My post was in the context of replying to what Lamar had written: "If God mandates something "to be essential in order to be saved" '

Yes, and mine clarified that God mandates something called faith as the condition for salvation.

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes, and mine clarified that God mandates something called faith as the condition for salvation.

I agree with that. It is those who believe on (have faith in) the Lord Jesus Christ that are saved.

 

[GWH]

I agree with that. It is those who believe on (have faith in) the Lord Jesus Christ that are saved.

Yes, and such salvation occurs at the moment faith opens the door of our heart to Jesus as the HS (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5),
which is called Spirit baptism (1Cor. 12:13), that may (not must per the NT except for Mark 16 and Acts 2) be aptly signified
by the rite of WB.

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes, and such salvation occurs at the moment faith opens the door of our heart to Jesus as the HS (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5),
which is called Spirit baptism (1Cor. 12:13), that may (not must per the NT except for Mark 16 and Acts 2) be aptly signified
by the rite of WB.

Although I certainly don't believe that water baptism is a prerequisite of being saved, nor do I believe that it is an "optional extra" for people once they have been saved. We'll have to "agree to disagree" on that point.

 

[mailmandan]

This is better. No more faith alone justification apart from works.

Did Paul say justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 or did he simply say justified by faith? In Romans 4:6, Paul said that God imputes righteousness apart from works. Hence, apart from works.

Man is saved by faith (alone, hence) apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet genuine faith does not remain (alone, hence) apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24)

Now let's clarify together:

We are saved through faith, not by works of our own righteousness and sin.

Titus{3:4}
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

Amen!

Faith in Christ is without works of our own righteousness. Faith in Christ is only with works of God's righteousness, and not with evil deeds.

Salvation through faith in Christ is without works (is not by works) in general. Works of righteousness (works done in righteousness - Titus 3:5) are not evil deeds. Faith in Christ is the righteousness, which is of God by faith, not by works.

You wouldn't say that anyone has saving faith while doing evil, correct?

Those with saving faith (children of God) practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10)

You have spoken of having faith alone, and having faith in Christ alone. Will you not also preach having faith in Christ and doing good alone?

The alone part seems to trip folks up. We are saved by faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6) which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14)

Faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross alone, doesn't save any man. Only faith in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection can justify a man.

His death, burial and resurrection cover His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection.

And confirming again, no man is saved nor justified by his own works of righteousness and sin. Man's own works without faith in Christ has no justification with God.

Of course not. Who would say they were?

Isa 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Our personal righteousness/filthy rags/stained with sin/is apart from faith.

You do make difference between works of man's own righteousness without Christ, vs good works by faith in Jesus Christ, correct? You're not saying all works are the same before God, whether done with faith in Christ or without?

There is a difference, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works of any kind. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) We must not conflate and good works or else we end up with salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Yes. Faith in Christ alone, is not faith alone in Christ.

Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works.

No man can have faith alone in Christ without works, because no man can have faith in Christ without doing good.

Good works "follow" having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root

Faith in Christ alone is believing Jesus is the only true Christ of God, and there is none other with God:

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Faith in Christ alone for salvation includes that above along with trusting in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Having faith in Christ alone, as the only true Son of God, is never without works. Having faith without works is dead, being alone.

Faith results in works yet we are still saved by faith at its origin and not later based on accomplishing a check list of works.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

If faith produces no works, then it demonstrates that its dead. The source of life in faith is not works, rather life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith, just like a dead fruit tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

'Remain' alone? So, you are preaching a hybrid of faith alone salvation? Salvation begins with having faith alone without works, but does not continue alone without works? Salvation is not only by faith alone, but also justified by faith with works?

Hybrid faith alone? That's a new one. We have been made alive together with Christ and by grace through faith, not works FIRST (Ephesians 2:5-9) then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) We must not put the cart before the horse. Man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-6) then justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21, 24) That proper balance confuses folks who teach that we are justified/saved by works.

The problem is that faith alone is always dead, being without works. And dead faith cannot save anyone.

Not right out of the starting gate it isn't. How many works has one accomplished a split second after they have been saved through faith? Faith produces works and not the other way around.

James{2:14}
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Faith alone can never be with works, else alone is no more alone, or works is no more works...

So, you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS? How many works does it take?

The question at this time, is why must 'Alone' be attached to saving faith?

The alone part that is attached to saving faith is faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. Either we are trusting in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation or else we are also trusting in works. Now once saving faith in Christ is established, it goes on to produce works because it's alive in Christ. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

Why not just preach the Scriptures of salvation through faith, and justification by faith in Jesus Christ?

I do (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1) and works follow.

Why must faith 'alone' be preached at all, except being dead without works?

Because we are saved the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Faith alone being made alive and can save is not just modifying Scripture but is turning God's words upside down.

What is modifying Scripture and turning God's words upside down is saying that we are made alive together with Christ BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:5) and saved by grace through faith AND WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9) and justified by faith AND WORKS. (Romans 5:1)

Isa 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good; that put darkness for light; that put bitter for sweet!

Sounds like the democrats.

There is no faith alive, that has no works. Living faith is living by faith, not faith without works: The just shall live by faith.

So, according to you, faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes alive? How does something that is dead produce anything? So, according to that same logic, a fruit tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. Faith must be alive in Christ FIRST and then it produces good works. A fruit tree must be alive FIRST and then it produces fruit. You have the cart before the horse.

 

[mailmandan]

Although I certainly don't believe that water baptism is a prerequisite of being saved, nor do I believe that it is an "optional extra" for people once they have been saved. We'll have to "agree to disagree" on that point.

These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before being water baptized. (Acts 10:43-47) Now baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43)

 

[TrustandObey]

Yes, the important word is "if." If indeed God had mandated baptism as an essential prerequisite for salvation, the apostles who told the jailer that to be saved, he need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ must have been mistaken.

Did not the verses on repentance, baptism and continued faithfulness not apply to the jailer?

I doubt Peter taught the jailer OSAS, FART or the "sinners prayer".

 

[DavidLamb]

Did not the verses on repentance, baptism and continued faithfulness not apply to the jailer?

I doubt Peter taught the jailer OSAS, FART or the "sinners prayer".

Peter wasn't even there. It was Paul and Silas. Here is the account:

(Act 16:25) But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.
(Act 16:26) Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed.
(Act 16:27) And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself.
(Act 16:28) But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
(Act 16:29) Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
(Act 16:30) And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
(Act 16:31) So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
(Act 16:32) Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
(Act 16:33) And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Verse 32 says that they spoke the word of the Lord to him. Whether Paul and Silas taught the jailer OSAS, FART or the "sinners prayer" depends on whether such things are in the word of God. (Incidentally, I have no idea what "FART" is in this context. I'm fairly certain you aren't using the slightly rude term for breaking wind ).

Also we see that the jailer and his family were baptised after believing:

(Act 16:33) And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.
(Act 16:34) Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

That ties in with what Philip told the Ethiopian who requested baptism:

(Act 8:36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
(Act 8:37) Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, the important word is "if." If indeed God had mandated baptism as an essential prerequisite for salvation, the apostles who told the jailer that to be saved, he need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ must have been mistaken.

Amen! In Acts 16:31, the apostles who told the jailer what they must do to be saved, said - believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and NOT believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get baptized and you will be saved. Their baptism "followed" believe/saved, just as it did for these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47.

 

[mailmandan]

That ties in with what Philip told the Ethiopian who requested baptism:

(Act 8:36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
(Act 8:37) Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Amen! John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

 

[mailmandan]

You most certainly have not.

And until you can I suggest you learn the difference between a definitive and a general statement.

IMO, I think you already know but don't care.

Your blindness to the logical hole in your theology is holding you back.

Your blindness to the gospel is holding you back. The primary hermeneutical pitfall in the church of Christ (Campbellism) is their rigid application of the principle that "the silence of Scripture always prohibits." By confusing definitive commands with general principles, they often bind their biased church doctrine and miss out on the intended grace of the gospel.

 

[Lamar]

Yes, because natural laws are themselves supernatural/an ongoing miracle so dependable that we take creation for granted.

This comment borders on stupidity. Did you think this out before posting? Please say no.

If there is no natural there can be no supernatural.

 

[Lamar]

Did not the verses on repentance, baptism and continued faithfulness not apply to the jailer?

I doubt Peter taught the jailer OSAS, FART or the "sinners prayer".

I think you meant Paul not Peter.

The FART part is funny, never noticed that before.