Is cessation an observation or theology?

[GWH]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

Yes, miracles were meant to certify Jesus as Messiah and to launch His Church/Gospel.
However, miracles are not normative; all souls walk by faith (2Cor. 5:7, John 8:42-44).

 

[Anchorite]

Miracles alleviate suffering. Since suffering continues to exist, miracles continue to exist.

Sad that ignorant pastors, who believe in a supernatural God, preach against miracles, because they do not have enough faith to experience them.

No one knows how frequent or rare miracles are today. Many miracles occur quietly, with no publicity.

People who have not seen any miracles claim they no longer happen because the Bible canon is complete, or because the original apostles are dead, or some other ridiculous reason.

Those who have seen miracles have no desire to shout down the miracle deniers. We just keep praising our miracle working God who loves us so much.

 

[TruthDefender]

The central issue here is not about the practices of the Synagogue but about what the word itself tells us to do. Paul instructed Timothy using as his referrance what :

Exactly! What I was trying to say is, there was a lot of schism between Jews and the Gentiles in the church. The Jews wanted to continue with some of their traditions and also wanted to force some of those things onto the Gentiles who believed. What did Saul Paul say about this?

“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15‬:‭28‬-‭29‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬, ‭4‬, ‭6‬, ‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

…15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…
(2 Timothy 3:15-17)

a. From Paul's statement that Timothy had known the Holy Scriptures from infancy we see that the Apostle was not referring to the NT scriptures which, at the time of Timothy's infancy had not yet been written. Instead, Paul was referring to the OT writings known as the Tenach, which included the Law and the Prophets.
b. Could the redemptive plan of God have been known and understood, even before the NT existed? Evidently so. When Jesus met with some followers on the Road to Emmaus He told them:

25 Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27 And beginning with MOSES and all the PROPHETS, He explained to them what was written in ALL THE SCRIPTURES about Himself
(Luke 24:25-27)

 

[TruthDefender]

or the web so why are you using it? smh

Because it’s beneficial, but doesn't change the necessary pattern. Lights, the HVAC system, cars, the building/ house are all beneficial, but they don’t change the pattern we see in the NC.

 

[Aussie52]

Miracles alleviate suffering. Since suffering continues to exist, miracles continue to exist.

Sad that ignorant pastors, who believe in a supernatural God, preach against miracles, because they do not have enough faith to experience them.

No one knows how frequent or rare miracles are today. Many miracles occur quietly, with no publicity.

People who have not seen any miracles claim they no longer happen because the Bible canon is complete, or because the original apostles are dead, or some other ridiculous reason.

Those who have seen miracles have no desire to shout down the miracle deniers. We just keep praising our miracle working God who loves us so much.

Most Christians are under the idea that the ministry of 'miracle workers' happened all through Bible times, when in fact they didn't. There are 3 and only 3 periods where those used to perform the miraculous appeared. The times of Moses and Joshua around 60 years. The ministries of Elijah and Elisha again around 60 years. The times of Jesus and His disciples and the Early Church period, around 65 years.
While God has and does often answer the prayers of believers with miraculous answers, those gifted with miraculous ministries like already mentioned, have ceased to exist.

 

[adamjordan53]

Read the book of acts.
The Holy Spirit was recieved via laying on of Hands.

Water baptism is what all believers recieve.

A guy in Rome, back then, knows nothing of the manifestations in Jerusalem. He just may hear of it.

You got to get moving
Get into the "water"...the river of God.
Find out where God is moving and go get into the river.
Takes time and money and air fare.

If people want the Holy Ghost, they seek and find.
A cost.
No hunger....No Holy Ghost.

Book of acts is the same.
We are in the book of acts Florist Salisbury.
Same Holy Ghost, same hunger vs skeptics.

“Cessation” can be understood in different ways depending on context, but in religious discussion it most often refers to cessationism—the theological view that certain spiritual gifts (such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and miracles) ceased after the apostolic age. In this sense, it is primarily a matter of theology rather than direct observation, because it is based on interpretations of scripture and doctrinal reasoning rather than universally verifiable present-day evidence. However, some people argue it also involves observation, pointing to the relative rarity or absence of such phenomena in contemporary settings compared to early biblical accounts.

 

[Anchorite]

“Cessation” can be understood in different ways depending on context, but in religious discussion it most often refers to cessationism—the theological view that certain spiritual gifts (such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and miracles) ceased after the apostolic age. In this sense, it is primarily a matter of theology rather than direct observation, because it is based on interpretations of scripture and doctrinal reasoning rather than universally verifiable present-day evidence. However, some people argue it also involves observation, pointing to the relative rarity or absence of such phenomena in contemporary settings compared to early biblical accounts.

But “observation” is subjective.

One person does not see any miracles, so he says they ceased.

Another person sees miracles, so he says they did not cease.

And “the relative rarity or absence of such phenomena in contemporary settings compared to early biblical accounts.” is also subjective.

Nobody knows how frequent or rare miracles are, for we are not omniscient.

Just because miracles are not publicized on CNN does not mean they do not happen.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Most Christians are under the idea that the ministry of 'miracle workers' happened all through Bible times, when in fact they didn't. There are 3 and only 3 periods where those used to perform the miraculous appeared. The times of Moses and Joshua around 60 years. The ministries of Elijah and Elisha again around 60 years. The times of Jesus and His disciples and the Early Church period, around 65 years.
While God has and does often answer the prayers of believers with miraculous answers, those gifted with miraculous ministries like already mentioned, have ceased to exist.

I have seen this reasoning before which seems to be based on the mathematical/statistical argument that, regardless of how it APPEARS to be in the Bible, miracles are and ALWAYS HAVE been extremely rare and infrequent in light of all the accumulated time when no miracles occurred at all. From this, I suppose we are to conclude that we must conclude that miracles are extremely rare so much so that statisically most of us will probably never witness a single one.

As I recall, this argument was advanced by theologian B. B. Warfield, who eventually ended up rejecting not only the miracles done in the "Apostolic Age" but those that were affirmed by every generation FOLLOWING the Apostles up until the Present. I do not know for sure if you are using this line of reasoning (only you can say this). Whatever the case, I think it is important to remember that God who is being both rational and transcendent possesses the power of self-determination and is not limited by the laws of probability which govern the material universe. Therefore, whether a miracle is frequent or infrequent has no bearing whatsoever on what God might choose to do.

For a moment, though, let us consider the OT account of Elijah and Elisha. I think it is fair to say that the RELATIVELY few accounts we have of THEIR miracles probably do not constitute the TOTALITY of what they did. Even we read about what Jesus did not encompass the multide of miracles He did. Instead, the historic account is merely a sampling.

Next you make the comment:

While God has and does often answer the prayers of believers with miraculous answers, those GIFTED WITH MIRACULOUS MINISTRIES like already mentioned, have ceased to exist.

What is the difference between a person who has been given a MIRACULOUS MINISTRY and an ordinary person who prays for a fellow believer in need and that person goes into (immediate) remission? This happened to my daughter who had a spinal injury that her doctor had warned her on Thursday: If this is not better by Monday I am going to have to operate and, there is a 50/50 chance that you will not walk again. Now I am not known for having faith or for being emotional. In fact, I have at times, been compared to "Doubting Thomas"

However, when I heard this dreadful news, I was hit with both the utter impossibility of it as well as a surge of unexpected faith. She was the mother of five children and it seemed inconceivable to me that the Lord would not intervene. Instead of unbelief and despair I felt a rush of complete assurance that she would recover.

I called my Pastor and told him to put her and our grandchildren in front of the whole church, lay hands on her, anoint her with oil and pray for her healing. We rarely anointed people but he agreed to it and I with absolute conviction, told him that she WAS GOING TO BE HEALED. I did not have to persuade myself of this. I just KNEW.

Actually, she was not healed during the evening service, but afterward she met a sister in the parking lot who prayed for her again. This time, my daughter said her spine grew very hot. Then it became freezing cold. This sensation started at the top of her spine and travelled down to the base. When it reached the base of the spine, she said the muscles suddenly relaxed and the pain was gone. The next day she was able to go to work. Days When she was subsequently examined by her doctor he said her problem had completely vanished. He did not understand how it had happened.

I have no permanant gift of healing. God is the only one who has this power. The reccipient of the gift is the person who needs it. The one delivering the gift TO the person does not have to be someone who has been specially selected to have such a ministry. It could be just another member of the Body.

 

[mailmandan]

Music was added to worship during the reign of David. It's difficult to read Psalm 150 and not believe they struck up the band. The absence of musical instruments being mentioned in the NT does not negate their use. Anything not expressly forbidden in scripture is allowed; music and instruments especially having OT sanction.

Musical instruments can enhance the singing of praise to the Lord. Musical instruments were obviously considered a help to praise in the Old Testament. It seems strange to say that something God thought was a blessing in the Old Testament is now forbidden in the New Testament church.

Since instrumental music has the Old Testament precedent of being approved of God ("musical instruments of God" 1 Chronicles 16:42), and there is no evidence that there was a time when this approval ceased, we have biblical authority for its validity.

We are authorized to use “psalms” in the NT (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Ephesians 5:19 says "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument."

Strong's Concordance
psalmos: a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
Original Word: ψαλμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: psalmos
Phonetic Spelling: (psal-mos')
Short Definition: a psalm
Definition: a psalm, song of praise, the Hebrew book of Psalms.
HELPS Word-studies
5568 psalmós – a psalm ("Scripture set to music"). Originally, a psalm (5568 /psalmós) was sung and accompanied by a plucked musical instrument (typically a harp), especially the OT Psalms.

[The Psalms of the OT were often sung and were accompanied by sophisticated musical arrangements].

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from psalló
Definition
a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
NASB Translation
Psalm (1), psalm (1), Psalms (3), psalms (2).

The words "making melody" are used in Ephesians 5:19, but "how" this is done is found in Isaiah 23:16, and it is with a musical instrument:" Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered."

Also, Amos 5:23 speaks of "the melody of thy viols," which is also reference to a musical instrument. So if "the Bible interprets itself," these passages show "how" to make melody – with musical instruments.

If certain churches want to leave out musical instruments in their worship, then that is their prerogative but nowhere does does the Bible forbid musical instruments like David used and as the apostle Paul instructed.

 

[TruthDefender]

But “observation” is subjective.

One person does not see any miracles, so he says they ceased.

Another person sees miracles, so he says they did not cease.

And “the relative rarity or absence of such phenomena in contemporary settings compared to early biblical accounts.” is also subjective.

Nobody knows how frequent or rare miracles are, for we are not omniscient.

Just because miracles are not publicized on CNN does not mean they do not happen.

Did the masses in the first century interpret them as one way, or the other? The ones who saw them knew they were miracles.

It was only certain Jews who purposely lied about them to dissuade people from following.

I’ve never really seen or heard anything miraculous happening in my lifetime. Have you, at least not genuine?

 

[TruthDefender]

Musical instruments can enhance the singing of praise to the Lord. Musical instruments were obviously considered a help to praise in the Old Testament. It seems strange to say that something God thought was a blessing in the Old Testament is now forbidden in the New Testament church.

Since instrumental music has the Old Testament precedent of being approved of God ("musical instruments of God" 1 Chronicles 16:42), and there is no evidence that there was a time when this approval ceased, we have biblical authority for its validity.

We are authorized to use “psalms” in the NT (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Ephesians 5:19 says "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument."

Strong's Concordance
psalmos: a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
Original Word: ψαλμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: psalmos
Phonetic Spelling: (psal-mos')
Short Definition: a psalm
Definition: a psalm, song of praise, the Hebrew book of Psalms.
HELPS Word-studies
5568 psalmós – a psalm ("Scripture set to music"). Originally, a psalm (5568 /psalmós) was sung and accompanied by a plucked musical instrument (typically a harp), especially the OT Psalms.

[The Psalms of the OT were often sung and were accompanied by sophisticated musical arrangements].

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from psalló
Definition
a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
NASB Translation
Psalm (1), psalm (1), Psalms (3), psalms (2).

The words "making melody" are used in Ephesians 5:19, but "how" this is done is found in Isaiah 23:16, and it is with a musical instrument:" Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered."

Also, Amos 5:23 speaks of "the melody of thy viols," which is also reference to a musical instrument. So if "the Bible interprets itself," these passages show "how" to make melody – with musical instruments.

If certain churches want to leave out musical instruments in their worship, then that is their prerogative but nowhere does does the Bible forbid musical instruments like David used and as the apostle Paul instructed.

There were a lot of things they did under the OC that we don’t do today.

There are no examples under the NC that uses instruments. So is it authorized? Wouldn’t this be adding to His NC?

 

[mailmandan]

There were a lot of things they did under the OC that we don’t do today.

There are no examples under the NC that uses instruments. So is it authorized? Wouldn’t this be adding to His NC?

See what I shared in post #749 in regard to the word "psalms" from Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 in the Strong's and NAS Concordance.

 

[Anchorite]

Did the masses in the first century interpret them as one way, or the other? The ones who saw them knew they were miracles.

It was only certain Jews who purposely lied about them to dissuade people from following.

I’ve never really seen or heard anything miraculous happening in my lifetime. Have you, at least not genuine?

I find it hard to believe that you have never seen or heard anything miraculous. I have experienced miracles many times, including being saved from almost drowning, avoiding the need to have my right arm amputated, meeting the perfect woman to be my wife, hands laid on me to instantly heal painful ear infections, and much more.

People typically assume incredible blessings to be coincidence or luck, but I would bet that almost everyone has experienced miraculous healing, job acquisitions, narrow escapes from disaster, deliverance from addictions, recovery from serious illness, reception to the gospel, etc.

Miracles are often subtle, not always regrowing a missing limb or giving sight to the blind.

Christian testimonies of fantastic rescues abound.

 

[TruthDefender]

See what I shared in post #749 in regard to the word "psalms" from Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 in the Strong's and NAS Concordance.

Yes singing; no example of instruments.

 

[TruthDefender]

I find it hard to believe that you have never seen or heard anything miraculous. I have experienced miracles many times, including being saved from almost drowning, avoiding the need to have my right arm amputated, meeting the perfect woman to be my wife, hands laid on me to instantly heal painful ear infections, and much more.

People typically assume incredible blessings to be coincidence or luck, but I would bet that almost everyone has experienced miraculous healing, job acquisitions, narrow escapes from disaster, deliverance from addictions, recovery from serious illness, reception to the gospel, etc.

Those are not considered miraculous.

Miracles are often subtle, not always regrowing a missing limb or giving sight to the blind.

That’s not subtle!

Christian testimonies of fantastic rescues abound.

I think we’re all talking about miraculous miracles (the blind to receive sight, the mute to talk, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, broken limbs to heal immediately, the sick to have immediate recovery of health, the dead to rise again). None of these things happen anymore.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes singing; no example of instruments.

The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument."

Strong's Concordance
psalmos: a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
Original Word: ψαλμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: psalmos
Phonetic Spelling: (psal-mos')
Short Definition: a psalm
Definition: a psalm, song of praise, the Hebrew book of Psalms.
HELPS Word-studies
5568 psalmós – a psalm ("Scripture set to music"). Originally, a psalm (5568 /psalmós) was sung and accompanied by a plucked musical instrument (typically a harp), especially the OT Psalms.

[The Psalms of the OT were often sung and were accompanied by sophisticated musical arrangements].

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from psalló
Definition
a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
NASB Translation
Psalm (1), psalm (1), Psalms (3), psalms (2).

The words "making melody" are used in Ephesians 5:19, but "how" this is done is found in Isaiah 23:16, and it is with a musical instrument:" Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered."

Also, Amos 5:23 speaks of "the melody of thy viols," which is also reference to a musical instrument. So if "the Bible interprets itself," these passages show "how" to make melody – with musical instruments.

 

[Anchorite]

I think we’re all talking about miraculous miracles (the blind to receive sight, the mute to talk, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk, broken limbs to heal immediately, the sick to have immediate recovery of health, the dead to rise again). None of these things happen anymore.

You mean there are non-miraculous miracles? You seem to be extremely confused.

My list of miracles that happened to me includes instant healing, plus other amazing things. The things you define as miracles happen frequently.

Enjoy your miracle-free life. Those who believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever will enjoy fantastic deliverance.

 

[TruthDefender]

The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument."

Strong's Concordance
psalmos: a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
Original Word: ψαλμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: psalmos
Phonetic Spelling: (psal-mos')
Short Definition: a psalm
Definition: a psalm, song of praise, the Hebrew book of Psalms.
HELPS Word-studies
5568 psalmós – a psalm ("Scripture set to music"). Originally, a psalm (5568 /psalmós) was sung and accompanied by a plucked musical instrument (typically a harp), especially the OT Psalms.

[The Psalms of the OT were often sung and were accompanied by sophisticated musical arrangements].

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from psalló
Definition
a striking (of musical strings), a psalm
NASB Translation
Psalm (1), psalm (1), Psalms (3), psalms (2).

The words "making melody" are used in Ephesians 5:19, but "how" this is done is found in Isaiah 23:16, and it is with a musical instrument:" Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered."

Also, Amos 5:23 speaks of "the melody of thy viols," which is also reference to a musical instrument. So if "the Bible interprets itself," these passages show "how" to make melody – with musical instruments.

Melody of the heart, voice, internal praise.

 

[TruthDefender]

You mean there are non-miraculous miracles? You seem to be extremely confused.

I’m not confused. Do you not know the difference between miracles and miraculous miracles?

My list of miracles that happened to me includes instant healing, plus other amazing things. The things you define as miracles happen frequently.

Enjoy your miracle-free life. Those who believe Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever will enjoy fantastic deliverance.

Ok

 

[Psalm1]

“Cessation” can be understood in different ways depending on context, but in religious discussion it most often refers to cessationism—the theological view that certain spiritual gifts (such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and miracles) ceased after the apostolic age. In this sense, it is primarily a matter of theology rather than direct observation, because it is based on interpretations of scripture and doctrinal reasoning rather than universally verifiable present-day evidence. However, some people argue it also involves observation, pointing to the relative rarity or absence of such phenomena in contemporary settings compared to early biblical accounts.

Back in 1997 David Hogan had seen over 200 raised from the dead in Mexico.
1) don't let your backslidden condition that the American church has you sleep walking in , determine if God still is alive.
2) God does not move in power in your circles.
3) the power of God is manifest in the anointing. ( the missing key ingredient)
( the powerless church that has duped you into a powerless God, is asleep and put all those sleepwalkers into the American church trance)