Dysfunctional Faith-Alone justification

[Inquisitor]

Rom 11:6
And if by faith-alone, then is it no more with works: otherwise faith-alone is no more faith-alone. But if it be with works, then is it no more faith-alone: otherwise work is no more work.

What a confused translation of Romans 11:6.

Here is a simpler and better translation.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.


​

 

[Inquisitor]

It would be contradictory to become a righteous person through faith apart from becoming a doer of righteous works

Can you know explain your statement above?

 

[Mem]

Well Soyeong, I agree with the statement above.

The word "behavior" is the key word here.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.

Do you agree that the fruit of the Holy Spirit generates that reflection of Jesus?

It is also an deep insight into the nature of God Himself.

Going by a script to show love is different from going by scripture to display love. The former will seem scripted, as coming from an actor, but the latter is impromptu, as coming from the Spirit that prompts you.

 

[Soyeong]

Well Soyeong, I agree with the statement above.

The word "behavior" is the key word here.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.

Do you agree that the fruit of the Holy Spirit generates that reflection of Jesus?

It is also an deep insight into the nature of God Himself.

I agree. God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God was given to describe the behavior of someone who has God's character traits as it describers the behavior of the Son, is the the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The only way to attain a character trait in general is through faith alone apart from works done to earn it as the result, but what it means to have a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait.

 

[Soyeong]

Can you know explain your statement above?

To have a character trait means to be a doer of works that embody that trait, so for example to say that someone is courageous means that they are a doer of courageous works and it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works. I could come up with a set of instructions for how to be a doer of courageous works, but no amount of following those instructions will ever cause someone to become courageous as the result, but rather the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from works done to earn it as the result, but when someone becomes courageous, then that set of instructions now describes their behavior. The same is true for righteousness and every other character trait.

 

[Dino246]

How can any person have faith-alone without works, and also have their faith with works? How can any person be justified by faith-alone without works, and also by justified by their faith, with works?

Faith alone justification is logical and practical dysfunction. I.e. It can only justify a person by having faith-alone without works, then how can it work to justify anyone, that is practicing their faith.

Let's look at the logical and practical malfunction of justification by faith-alone without works: 1) It cannot be for people living their faith, since their faith is with works. 2) It be for anyone without works, since no living person can be without works.

1). Since faith-alone is only without works, then no person can have faith-alone with works.

And so, a person can only have faith-alone, when not practicing their faith. Else, their faith is with works, not alone without works.

Therefore, no living person can only be justified by faith-alone with works, and live by their faith. Else they are justified by their faith with works.

Either a person is justified by their faith-alone without works, or by their faith with works, not both: Else alone is no more alone, and works is no more works. As Scripture would say:

For if justification be by faith-alone, then is it no more with works: otherwise alone is no more alone. But if faith be with works, then is it no more justification by faith-alone: otherwise work is no more work.

And so, we conclude that justification by faith-alone without works, is not practical, because faith cannot be practiced, and also justify without works.

The only practical justification for the living, is by faith and with works. Else no living person can ever by justified by faith and live by their faith.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

2). No living person can have faith-alone without works, since no living person can be without works. The living that do no works at all, is doing an evil work, by not doing good:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Only the dead can do no works at all, and so only the dead can have faith-alone without works.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And yet, the dead can have no faith at all, else faith is no more faith, and dead is no more dead.

Conclusion: Justification by faith-alone without works, is so dysfunctional, that not even the dead can practice it, much less the living...

Your entire position is a strawman fallacy.

 

[JohnDB]

Schrödinger's cat....

Anyone familiar with the concept?

Because a Believer is the cat....philosophically

 

[2Christ]

How can any person have faith-alone without works, and also have their faith with works? How can any person be justified by faith-alone without works, and also by justified by their faith, with works?

Faith alone justification is logical and practical dysfunction. I.e. It can only justify a person by having faith-alone without works, then how can it work to justify anyone, that is practicing their faith.

Let's look at the logical and practical malfunction of justification by faith-alone without works: 1) It cannot be for people living their faith, since their faith is with works. 2) It be for anyone without works, since no living person can be without works.

1). Since faith-alone is only without works, then no person can have faith-alone with works.

And so, a person can only have faith-alone, when not practicing their faith. Else, their faith is with works, not alone without works.

Therefore, no living person can only be justified by faith-alone with works, and live by their faith. Else they are justified by their faith with works.

Either a person is justified by their faith-alone without works, or by their faith with works, not both: Else alone is no more alone, and works is no more works. As Scripture would say:

For if justification be by faith-alone, then is it no more with works: otherwise alone is no more alone. But if faith be with works, then is it no more justification by faith-alone: otherwise work is no more work.

And so, we conclude that justification by faith-alone without works, is not practical, because faith cannot be practiced, and also justify without works.

The only practical justification for the living, is by faith and with works. Else no living person can ever by justified by faith and live by their faith.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

2). No living person can have faith-alone without works, since no living person can be without works. The living that do no works at all, is doing an evil work, by not doing good:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Only the dead can do no works at all, and so only the dead can have faith-alone without works.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And yet, the dead can have no faith at all, else faith is no more faith, and dead is no more dead.

Conclusion: Justification by faith-alone without works, is so dysfunctional, that not even the dead can practice it, much less the living...

Jesus was our perfect example of faith and works, everywhere he went he helped someone, we should do the same do good around us when we can.

 

[2Christ]

The debate around James 2 ("faith without works is dead") is one of the most discussed in all of Christian theology, and much of the confusion comes from not defining what "works" actually means. James never gives a formal definition, but from the context and examples he uses, works (Greek: erga) refers to concrete, visible actions that demonstrate genuine faith, not rituals performed to earn salvation.

James gives very practical examples. In James 2:15–16, he asks: if someone is cold and starving and you tell them "go in peace, be warm and well fed" but do nothing to actually help them, what good is that? The faith behind those empty words is hollow. Then in James 2:21 he points to Abraham, whose act of offering Isaac was the visible proof of an inner faith that already existed. And in James 2:25, Rahab hiding the Israelite spies was a costly, risky action that demonstrated her genuine belief in God. All three examples share the same thread; costly, sacrificial, other-centered action.

This is where much of the confusion enters, because the Bible uses the word "works" in at least three distinct ways.

The first is Works of the Law. This is primarily Paul's language in Romans and Galatians, referring to ceremonial observances of the Mosaic Law such as circumcision, dietary rules, and festival keeping. Paul is unambiguous that these cannot justify anyone before God — "a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ" (Galatians 2:16).

The second is Dead Works, meaning the attempt to earn God's favor through religious performance or moral achievement. Both Paul and James reject this entirely. Ephesians 2:8–9 settles it clearly; salvation is by grace through faith, not by works, so that no one can boast.

The third, and this is what James really means is about works as the living fruit of genuine faith. These are not the cause of salvation but the evidence of it. If you truly believe, it will show up in how you treat people.

This point is worth dwelling on. Paul and James were addressing opposite errors in opposite directions. Paul was writing to legalists who were adding works to faith as a requirement for salvation. James was writing to people who had removed any visible fruit from their faith altogether. Paul's concern is works as the root of salvation, you are not saved by works. James' concern is works as the fruit of salvation, you are not saved without works showing. We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone.

Drawing from Scripture more broadly, the works that reflect genuine faith are mostly relational and outward-facing. They include caring for the poor, the sick, widows, and orphans (Matthew 25:35–40, James 1:27), obeying God's commands not as rule-following but as love expressed (John 14:15), forgiving others as a natural overflow of having been forgiven (Matthew 18:21–35), sharing the gospel and bearing witness to what you believe (Matthew 28:19–20), living with integrity and honesty in speech, work, and relationships (Colossians 3:17), showing hospitality and generosity (Romans 12:13, Hebrews 13:2), and bearing with others in patience, kindness, and humility; what Paul calls the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22–23.

In James, works are the visible, tangible expression of an invisible, internal faith. They are not a checklist to perform for God's approval. They are the natural consequence of a transformed heart. James' argument is really quite simple: a faith that produces no visible change in how you live and love others is not saving faith. It is intellectual agreement, nothing more. Real faith moves the hands and feet, not just the mind.

Peace

 

[Roger316]

He is arguing that “faith-alone” is impossible because no living person can ever be without works. But this misunderstands the doctrine. “Faith-alone” never meant that a believer has no works in their life; it meant that faith alone is the instrument by which God justifies. His argument confuses behavioral works with the forensic basis of justification, and it misreads James’s “dead faith” as literal physical death. The result is a critique of a position no one actually holds.

 

[Soyeong]

And no one can be without works in life, whether in the company of man, beast, and certainly not with God.

Luk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Men and women are either doing good or evil. No living person is doing nothing in the sight of God:

1Jo 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;...This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

A living person therefore cannot have faith-alone without works, because only the dead do nothing before God and man.

Jas 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If men and women can be do nothing on earth without works, then God cannot judge our works. But god judges everyone doing good or evil, and not doing good, is doing evil:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


Whether speaking for or against works, they are works being spoken of, not no works.

The question is having faith-alone without works. Which is not possible with God:

Luk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

To say that someone is alone is not to say that they exist in a void that is apart from everything else in the universe, but rather there is something specific that they are apart from. Likewise, when Paul said that we are declared righteous by works, then he was not referring to any kind of works that someone could do for any reason, but rather he was referring to a specific kind works done for a specific reason. When thing is apart from another thing, then there is a specific sense that it can be said to be alone apart from that other specific thing.

Other than faith being 'alone', which is dead, you are correct about being declared righteous by faith apart from any works we have done, before having faith in Jesus Christ.

Titus{3:4}
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(The peculiar question is why insert 'alone' into Scripture, where Scripture does not say it. And only serves to destroy the faith Scripture is preaching?)

In any case, having faith-alone apart from works being done, is the dysfunctional justification that does not work in life.

We are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as the result, so we can use the word "alone" because that is what it means for one thing to be apart from another thing.

This is Scripture. Leave out the 'alone' in the first part, and you won't be contradicting yourself in the last part.

"In Romans 3:28-31, we are declared righteous by faith apart from works done in order to earn it. We are not declared righteous by faith alone apart from doing righteous works in obedience to the Law of God."
I.e. We are declared righteous by faith, not doing our own righteousness, but only doing God's righteousness of the law.

Rom 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The word "alone" can be included without contradicting the last part because that is what it means to be alone.

Correct. Which would be doing the works of the law without faith toward God.

Doing the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ is the reward of repentance, not a wage for doing our own righteousness alone.

Righteousness by faith-alone without works, is one's own righteousness that does nothing in life.

When a person is doing righteousness of God by faith, it's righteous faith toward God with works, nor self righteous faith-alone without works.



Very true. Nor is faith-alone without works a living alternative to anything, other than being dead.

You can choose to understand Luther's the doctrine of faith alone or you can choose to just make up what you think it means and argue against the imaginary position that you've created.

 

[ATG]

Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ is not about preaching works of any description.

Preaching the gospel of a faith-alone Christ is not about preaching works of any description.

Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about works of light and doing good.

3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses,
resulting in salvation.

It's that simple.

Words of confession are judged by Jesus Christ as works.

Matth 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Thoughts and intents of the heart are judged by Jesus Christ as words and works:

Mat 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The faith-alone of a carnal Christ is blind to the gospel of Jesus Christ, that purifies the soul and life from lust and transgression:

2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Mat 23:25
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess…Cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

See ATG, no works in the gospel of grace; the gospel of salvation.

I see no works in the gospel of man's grace and salvation by one's own faith-alone.

However, the works men still do with their gospel , will not be disannulled by any gospel without works.

Jesus Christ the righteous will still judge all people by our works, whether unto justification or condemnation.

There is a vast distinction between that free gift of immortality and your response to that free gift.

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,..Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Inquisitor]

To have a character trait means to be a doer of works that embody that trait, so for example to say that someone is courageous means that they are a doer of courageous works and it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works. I could come up with a set of instructions for how to be a doer of courageous works, but no amount of following those instructions will ever cause someone to become courageous as the result, but rather the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from works done to earn it as the result, but when someone becomes courageous, then that set of instructions now describes their behavior. The same is true for righteousness and every other character trait.

Do you accept the righteous of Jesus Christ in gift form?

Romans 5:17
...who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

We don't have any righteousness nor can we generate righteousness.

We have the righteousness of Christ.

I do not understand your posts.

 

[ATG]

It would be contradictory to become a righteous person through faith apart from becoming a doer of righteous works in the same way that it would be contradictory for to become a courageous person apart from becoming a doer of courageous works.

Exactly. And so is becoming a fisherman by faith apart from doing any fishing.

No one is righteous, holy, and godly without living righteous, holy, and godly.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Ti 4:7
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

Them that will be righteous, holy, and godly must refuse faith-alone fables, and rather exercise themselves in righteous, holy, and godly living.

Faith-alone is self-delusion of taking thought alone: No one becomes athletic by taking thought alone, but only by athletic exercise. Much more so with fitness of the soul unto life.

1 Tim{4:8}
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Taking thought by faith-alone has no practical purpose in this life, much less in the life to come:

Rev{3:4}
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Collosians{3:23}
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of the Law of God, but other our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

Exactly. Fulfilling the righteousness of the law is by doing it righteously, not by thinking about it. Nor does anyone do any good by having good thoughts alone:

Justification by faith-alone without works is the delusion of them, that only think they are something, that they are not doing.

The faith of Jesus Christ is never alone without works, but is always doing good:

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

 

[Inquisitor]

1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,..Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Yes ATG, that is what you were before Jesus reached out His hand for you.

We are saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the gospel (1 Corinthians 15) and the only way we are saved.

If your faith is a genuine faith and you received the Holy Spirit then you can produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.

If your bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit then you will not be stealing rather you will be a kind person.

Notice the difference in the way the scripture treats the sin of stealing.

The law says don't do that or you will die, stop stealing.

But the fruit of the Spirit exerts the opposite inclination in being generous to others.

If you resist stealing from your neighbor that is not being generous to your neighbor.

That is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit and that is where the real problem is.

See how the gentleness of the Holy Spirit is an internal regeneration not an external obedience to the law.

Many cannot see this subtle difference between the weakness of the law and the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Inquisitor]

However, the works men still do with their gospel , will not be disannulled by any gospel without works.

You are deeply confused.

Works follow on from the free gift of salvation and the gospel does not contain works.

We are a new creation in Jesus Christ full stop.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we
would walk in them.

The gospel is solely about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-5).

You are welding works in with that reconciliation that Jesus performed.

You must separate your works from the works of Jesus Christ.

We boast in Jesus Christ and never mention ourselves or our works.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you accept the righteous of Jesus Christ in gift form?

Romans 5:17
...who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Indeed.

We don't have any righteousness nor can we generate righteousness.
We have the righteousness of Christ.

The content of a gift can be the experience of getting to do something such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as the result. The Law of God was not given a way of generating our own righteousness, but rather it was given in order to teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of the righteousness of Christ. Christ experienced his righteousness by living in obedience to the Law of God, so that is also what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness of Christ.

I do not understand your posts.

Sorry for not being clear, I would be happy to clarify something if you have a specific question. Do you see the connection between someone having a character trait and then doing works that express that trait? What precisely do you think is being communicated about God by saying that He is righteous?

 

[ATG]

Salvation is not given to those that say "look at my works Lord".

Certainly not to them doing evil works. But only to them doing good:

Jhn 3:20
He that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jas 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith-alone justifiers don't want their works to be looked at, because their deeds are still sinful.

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Then a work is performed in gratitude.

No any evil work, that doesn't want to be looked at.

That's why some preach their faith-alone Christ can't even see their continued sins and trespasses, but only their Faith-Alone: Which forever stands All Alone in heaven, apart from their works on earth...

Amo 5:26
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

 

[ATG]

You misunderstand that we cannot contribute to our salvation we can only respond after being saved.

I understand no one can do anything for their salvation by their faith-alone. Not can they ever do anything for the justification by their faith-alone: Because they can't do anything by their faith-alone, lest their faith be with works, and not alone without works.

Which remains the unanswered dysfunction of justification only by faith-alone without works, and never by faith with works.

Which forbids the justification of Jesus Christ: For the just shall live by his faith...

How can anyone only be justified by their faith-alone without works, and live their faith and be justified? Except their faith and their life be alone without works...

Which is not possible, since living can only be by works, else as Paul would say, "If it be without works, then living is no more living, or works is no more works.

 

[ATG]

You have salvation and works blended together and more than likely a sacrament or two, plus a water baptism.

Only by confessing the Lord Jesus with my mouth, and doing His righteousness by His faith.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

You have your salvation and works of unrighteousness separated only by your own faith-alone:

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Faith-alone without works, is light-alone without shining: Dead and dark.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Mat 6:23
If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The dark light of faith alone...