Brother you're not a sincere believer you need to be properly evangelized and seek Christ's Spirit. I send you like sheep among wolves. Lk
Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe
- Thread starter Jon777
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26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.
27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.
28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).
29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.
31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.
36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.
37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).
38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.
39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,
and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.
40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).
41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.
42. Romans 11:33-36 concludes Paul’s development of the DOE by acknowledging that God’s mind is unknowable beyond what He reveals.
You're judgmental and need to harmonize Scripture.
The survey of Romans 1-11 (R#1-42) will now be applied to the TULIP and MFW doctrines in order to see which parts of these interpretations are supported by that Scripture. This application will continue the enumeration begun by the survey.
43. Regarding Total depravity, R#1-6 teach that all normal adult humans are sinners and that God’s intent (will/desire) is to lead them to repent, so they will not condemn themselves to suffer righteous wrath—which implies that sinners are enabled by God’s leading to repent, so their depravity does not totally nullify MFW.
44. Regarding Unconditional election, R#10, 11, 14 & 15 specifically cite faith/belief as the condition for receiving s/e. R#17 illustrates this truth with the example of Abraham leading to the conclusion that faith is the condition for justification or s/e in R#18. R#34 laments that Jews as a whole failed to satisfy the condition of faith, and R#35 celebrates that everyone may satisfy that condition.
45. Regarding Limited atonement, R#20&21 indicate that Christ died to pay the penalty for all sins of all sinners, and R#29 laments that most Jews reject Christ’s atonement, although R#37 finds consolation because there remains a remnant who have not stumbled over the stumbling-stone, who is Christ (R#34).
46. Regarding Irresistible grace, R#3&4 refer to wicked souls who spurn God’s kindness and do not repent. References to “all who believe” (R#11) and to “the man who has faith” (R#15) imply there are some who resist saving faith. R#32 cites pharaoh as an example of a sinner who hardened his heart against God’s will.
47. Regarding Perseverance, R#6 implies the need for those who do not resist God’s leading to persist in doing that. R#40 mentions God’s kindness to believers provided that they continue to believe, because if not they “also will be cut off”.
48. Regarding Moral volition, R#9 teaches that the purpose of the law is to make souls conscious of sin, and R#10-11 teach how to attain righteousness from God. R#22 urges Christians not to continue sinning, and R#26&27 contrast the sinful nature with the new way of cooperating with the Spirit until Christians attain the likeness of Christ.
49. Regarding Freedom to choose, faith connotes a lack of proof or coercion, thereby making the chooser responsible for resisting God’s kind leading per R#3&4, which onus for evil is sensed by one’s conscience (R#8) or consciousness of sin (R#9). Even the reference to slavery in R#23 speaks of obedience being offered.
50. Regarding Will or volition, it is signified in R#32&38 by the heart, and the sinful will is described as hardened (cf. obstinate in Rom. 10:21). In R#39 Israel’s corporate will to sin is called transgression.
God’s overall activity in Scripture
From Genesis to Revelation, God’s activity is consistently portrayed as purposeful forming—He creates, shapes, calls, and directs people and nations toward the fulfillment of His redemptive plan. God does not merely react to human choices; He authors a story in which every character, event, and turning point serves His intention to reveal His mercy and righteousness. This is why Scripture repeatedly uses the imagery of God as potter and humanity as clay: creatures receive their identity, role, and destiny from the Creator’s design. God’s sovereignty is not arbitrary power but purposeful craftsmanship, shaping history so that His promise, His character, and His glory become unmistakably clear.
How that framework explains Paul’s argument about Israel
Paul applies this same Creator‑purpose framework directly to Israel in Romans 9. Israel’s story—its election, its stumbling, its remnant, and its future restoration—unfolds according to God’s prior intention, not human expectation. When Paul says God “forms vessels for honor and dishonor,” he is explaining why Israel’s present unbelief does not mean God’s word has failed. The true Israel is the Israel God forms for His purpose, the people shaped by His mercy rather than mere ancestry. In this way, Paul shows that Israel’s history is not a theological problem but a demonstration of God’s purpose: through hardening, mercy, judgment, and restoration, God is revealing the riches of His glory to the people He has chosen and prepared beforehand.
The discussion is why are those vessels deemed for destruction. From their own doing or from God filling the void in Hades?
Both Pharaoh and Esau show personal choices to devalue the Birthright and harden their hearts before God made it permanent.
So how did they become vessels of destruction...by not repenting or because God made it so they weren't able to feel the need to repent?
Because I do not believe in the RCC theology of John Calvin, I am not really saved. Wow!
Address the issue of election in my post instead of false accusations.
LOL, Calvinism came from the RCC. Calvin was a RCC priest who still held on to many of the RCC beliefs. Do you? Do you follow John Calvin?
If you're not a Calvinist, you are not truly saved. Wow! I can't believe the things I sometimes hear from this chat room.
Not to puff @rogerg up, but you dont have nowhere near the understanding he has in scripture truth.So that makes rogers also not Scriptural. Got it
Address the election is post #560 please. These actually contain the word election.
It's not of he who runs or wills but upon whom God has mercy. Paul
Tulip Truths come from the scriptures,, and are absolutely essential to the Gospel of Gods Grace,
To be fair John Calvin was never ordained a Catholic priest, perhaps you are thinking of Luther ? .......however Calvin was very consumed by Augustine's writings and carried them into a more extreme false doctrine.