How should we account for Evil in the Garden?

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Adam and Eve were created in the image of God an innocent nature in flesh so they knew no sin.

The only thing they would know is the reality that God told them and could not see it any other way.

God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden because He gave them a choice.

But it would of never entered their mind to eat of the tree unless an outside source tempted them with an alternate reality.

So God allowed Satan to tempt Eve which she said they could not eat of the tree for that is all she could think and know.

So Satan tempted her with an alternate reality that if the ate of the tree they would be as gods having an elevated position.

So Eve ate and sinned.

Then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam and he ate and sinned.

Then they knew they were naked and were shameful putting fig leaves on themselves and realized they were deceived not receiving any elevated position.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The new age christianity that interprets the Bible and religions according to the occult and evolution, and people are going to evolve to be spiritual, and greater, and Jesus became an ascended master among others, and there is no personal God, but they honor the God of forces the power of the Cosmos, and the New Age Christ is the next world teacher.

The time will come that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but want to hear it according to the new age.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

The new age believes Lucifer is a god, and an alien, that gave mankind the principle of mind, and aliens will help mankind which they talk about the return of the gods.

This will happen again at the time of the antichrist which they believe they will evolve to be greater, and have peace on earth.

But they will realize they were deceived and there was no elevated position and the New Age Christ was no better than them.

Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

And for people that think we are blamed for Adam and Eve's sin it is not true.

No person is responsible and not guilty for the sins of other people.

But everybody will bear their own sin.

We are born innocent with no sin on our record.

When Adam and Eve sinned they now have a choice.

So their offspring are born having a choice which is the rest of humanity.

Since we are born with a choice we are born not knowing God so we will sin before we accept God if we do.

So all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Tablet,
If God knew in advance (Omnipotent) what would happen to in the two creation stories....that the evil God+ put in the garden would cause mankind to sin, how are Adam and Eve doing anything more than carrying out (fulfilling) the will of God+?
 
Man was created initially with a degree of free will (and in the second version of creation, woman was created at the same time.) He named all the animals, birds and fish using whatever free will he had been given to do that. Man tended the garden based on his free will as there is no evidence God instructed him how to tend the garden. All that expression of man's free will was sinless. It was only after God put Satan in the garden, something man had never seen or experienced and man had never heard a lie. Thus had no frame of reference about new information coming from the mouth of a talking snake. It works as a beautiful allegory or an indictment about the two creation stories if taken literally.

Actually, humanity was created in the first creation account, and Adam & Eve were created in the second account,
but there is no mention of them tending the garden sinlessly before being tempted to ignore GW.
(It makes more sense to view the story as a parable or allegory.)
 
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Did God+ know that Adam and Eve would sin? They seem surprised and had to "suddenly" protest the tree of life. Is it possible God+ does not know what would happen? Is He not all knowing?
Considering the "Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world" was already in place, it is highly unlikely God was taken by surprise. Everything was going as God foreknew and had planned for.
 
Did God+ know that Adam and Eve would sin? They seem surprised and had to "suddenly" protest the tree of life. Is it possible God+ does not know what would happen? Is He not all knowing?


You read the Bible right? All the answers are there. Do you not believe what it says about God? I'm just wondering why you are asking these basic questions.

Psalm 139:1–4
"You have searched me, Lord, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely."

1 John 3:20
"For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and he knows all things."

Hebrews 4:13
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

Psalm 147:5
"Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit."


🕊️
 
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Does that imply that God had no power over Lucifer? Are you suggesting that even if God+ did not Lucifer in the garden, God+ was powerless to prevent it? Where is the part about angels in the first two creation stories?

Its obvious that God allowed temptation to take place. God does not trust his angles nor mankind.
 
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Does that imply that God had no power over Lucifer? Are you suggesting that even if God+ did not Lucifer in the garden, God+ was powerless to prevent it? Where is the part about angels in the first two creation stories?
No, It does not imply that God had no power over Lucifer.

I can’t decipher your second question - "Are you suggesting that even if God+ did not Lucifer in the garden, God+ was powerless to prevent it?"

It’s not. It’s found elsewhere in scripture, as for instance in -

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Ezekiel-28-12/
Ez. 28:2. Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Ez. 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus (edit: Satan, an angel, see v. 14; ruling over the prince of Tyre, a man, see v. 2, ) , and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
 
There is no biblical basis in Genesis that mankind was created with a "free will"

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Why this instruction if there was no free will?
 
Did God+ know that Adam and Eve would sin? They seem surprised and had to "suddenly" protest the tree of life. Is it possible God+ does not know what would happen? Is He not all knowing?
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Jesus is the beginning of creation who was slain from the foundation of the world.

The Word in the beginning which became flesh the plan of God to come in the future in flesh.

And without that plan God would of not created anything He created.

Which God created Adam in the image He would show in the future.

God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He created anything.

So God knew Adam and Eve would fall in the garden because only by their fall could Jesus become the Savior.

God's kingdom is love so only by choice can His kingdom be.

And only by choice can Jesus be the Savior.

For mankind must have sin introduced in their life to have a choice for Jesus to be the Savior for spiritual salvation compatible with God who is spiritual.

Without spiritual salvation mankind could not have a relationship with God on His level and the purest form.

God knew they would fall because of the nature of their flesh which had to be for spiritual salvation to happen.

Which they knew no reality but what God told them and it would of never entered their mind to eat of that tree unless an outside source tempted them with an alternate reality.

So God allowed Satan to tempt Eve with an alternate reality and she sinned and then she was the outside source that tempted Adam and he sinned.

Which then sin was introduced in to their life and they had a choice.

And their offspring the rest of humanity were born with a choice.

Since they are born with a choice they are born not knowing God so they will sin before doing right by following God.

Giving them a choice and sin introduced in their life.

Making Jesus the Savior of the world to give mankind spiritual salvation and a true relationship with God.

If God did not give them a choice and cause sin to be introduced in their life humans would be in the flesh on earth forever and no true relationship with God.

The devils cannot be saved once they sin for there is nowhere to put off the sin and their whole being corrupted.

But people are in the flesh which in the flesh dwells no good thing but they can put off the flesh preserving the soul.

God gave the angels a choice and that is how God gave humans a choice the flesh.

So that is the understanding of it so now you can stop rolling to and fro on your bed worrying about it.

Now you can get a good night sleep.
 
Actually, humanity was created in the first creation account, and Adam & Eve were created in the second account,
but there is no mention of them tending the garden sinlessly before being tempted to ignore GW.
(It makes more sense to view the story as a parable or allegory.)

Actually, evil was banished from the Garden or OT version of heaven,
which reminds me of a couple of songs:

https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/someday

and

https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/the-power-of-love

:love:
 
The moral and sinful options along with the ability to choose them were created by God (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 4:17, 23:37).
So God+ knowing the result of this creation of man, created him to be damned and doomed to hell, (which God creates just for mankind) also demands we "love Him." You say, he also created heaven, but that was after somewhere before 4,000 yrs and 4 million years after mankind was created and after 99.97% of the 117 billion ever born is burning eternally in hell according to "the bible."

Or, we can look at these origin stories in a completely different way. They are human creations attempting to distill the man-God relationship in ways specific to the legends of one ancient people who used imports from adjoining and ancient cultures to make a claim to the land in which they lived. Every aspect of the man-God relationship contains key points of belief but way more demands on every aspect of daily life.

We are sinners. We had no choice other than to be sinners from the day of creation. However, our God has a plan to give us permanent ownership of a geography, a country. We live in this land by the grace of our God. Our 3,000 yr history is one of punishment, destruction and being outcasts. God sent people to convince us that we were on the wrong path. We have learned that all our eternal punishment is because we do not live up to the ever debated standards of God.

Suddenly, everything we believed for 1,000 yrs is wrong. God sends us His Son to save us from our sins which we treasure but reject salvation from ourselves. Our behaviors are just fine if we think or believe "right" because we have convinced ourselves in the most self-serving ways possible that "saving souls" is the prime directive. We make claims of salvation while delivering evil in every creative way we can invent. We treasure His forgiveness but reject His call for a complete change of life compliant with the life of God's Son. We want our sins forgiven but not our lives changed. We want to venerate the Son but deny his claim on our lives. He is restricted to a purely mental process of conceptualization in which we believe that all that is necessary to believe the right dogmas for eternal blessings.

If we think right, believe right and create 45,000 competing understandings or what is "right," we are "saved" only in our personal conceptualization, creed, and churchification none of which deliver conversion in this life. Salvation without personal sacrifice is the common thread in 21st century christianity. We are "made good" by our dogmas, catechisms, creeds and rationalizations. We no longer must take up our cross. Church replaces that image. God wants us rich, healthy and all that is required is to give more and more to the church and to vote for the right political party.

What if the "real" story of God's interaction with mankind began with Jesus? What if His message of salvation calls for more than thousands of competing "doctrines." What if the entire bible is one story about the reclamation of humanity based on our ability to mirror the love of God for us and others. What if our reclamation was about sacrificial love and sacrificial service to our families, communities and our world? What if God gave us in Jesus a pattern of sacrificial love which we have traded for air-conditioned concrete cathedrals of self indulgence and the idea that God only cares if we "think" and "believe" right but reject all personal involvement in God's service to humanity? Perhaps the reason Christianity is in decline in North America is because we have traded a life of sacrificial love for a life of comfort and convenient faith? What if our "Christianity" is so heavenly minded that it is no earthly good?
 
There is no biblical basis in Genesis that mankind was created with a "free will"

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Why this instruction if there was no free will?
Was Adam not changed after sinning? Or was he already a child of wrath, a
slave of sin, blinded by the god of this world, as we are before being saved?

People blather about free will and say all kinds of nonsense not supported by Scripture.
 
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So God+ knowing the result of this creation of man, created him to be damned and doomed to hell, (which God creates just for mankind) also demands we "love Him." You say, he also created heaven, but that was after somewhere before 4,000 yrs and 4 million years after mankind was created and after 99.97% of the 117 billion ever born is burning eternally in hell according to "the bible."

Or, we can look at these origin stories in a completely different way. They are human creations attempting to distill the man-God relationship in ways specific to the legends of one ancient people who used imports from adjoining and ancient cultures to make a claim to the land in which they lived. Every aspect of the man-God relationship contains key points of belief but way more demands on every aspect of daily life.

We are sinners. We had no choice other than to be sinners from the day of creation. However, our God has a plan to give us permanent ownership of a geography, a country. We live in this land by the grace of our God. Our 3,000 yr history is one of punishment, destruction and being outcasts. God sent people to convince us that we were on the wrong path. We have learned that all our eternal punishment is because we do not live up to the ever debated standards of God.

Suddenly, everything we believed for 1,000 yrs is wrong. God sends us His Son to save us from our sins which we treasure but reject salvation from ourselves. Our behaviors are just fine if we think or believe "right" because we have convinced ourselves in the most self-serving ways possible that "saving souls" is the prime directive. We make claims of salvation while delivering evil in every creative way we can invent. We treasure His forgiveness but reject His call for a complete change of life compliant with the life of God's Son. We want our sins forgiven but not our lives changed. We want to venerate the Son but deny his claim on our lives. He is restricted to a purely mental process of conceptualization in which we believe that all that is necessary to believe the right dogmas for eternal blessings.

If we think right, believe right and create 45,000 competing understandings or what is "right," we are "saved" only in our personal conceptualization, creed, and churchification none of which deliver conversion in this life. Salvation without personal sacrifice is the common thread in 21st century christianity. We are "made good" by our dogmas, catechisms, creeds and rationalizations. We no longer must take up our cross. Church replaces that image. God wants us rich, healthy and all that is required is to give more and more to the church and to vote for the right political party.

What if the "real" story of God's interaction with mankind began with Jesus? What if His message of salvation calls for more than thousands of competing "doctrines." What if the entire bible is one story about the reclamation of humanity based on our ability to mirror the love of God for us and others. What if our reclamation was about sacrificial love and sacrificial service to our families, communities and our world? What if God gave us in Jesus a pattern of sacrificial love which we have traded for air-conditioned concrete cathedrals of self indulgence and the idea that God only cares if we "think" and "believe" right but reject all personal involvement in God's service to humanity? Perhaps the reason Christianity is in decline in North America is because we have traded a life of sacrificial love for a life of comfort and convenient faith? What if our "Christianity" is so heavenly minded that it is no earthly good?

God created humanity to be saved to eternal fellowship with Him in heaven (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
MFW is what makes humans like God/superior to animals (Deut. 30:19).
Do not blame God for the sinful choice some souls make (Heb. 6:10),
because He is doing everything possible to teach souls their need for salvation (Heb. 12:5-7).
 
God created humanity to be saved to eternal fellowship with Him in heaven (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4).
MFW is what makes humans like God/superior to animals (Deut. 30:19).
Do not blame God for the sinful choice some souls make (Heb. 6:10),
because He is doing everything possible to teach souls their need for salvation (Heb. 12:5-7).
If God created a mankind purposefully sinful so that He could then go to an extraordinary effort to "save" us, what was the purpose? And why doom 99%+ all who ever lived? Did He create hell at the same time He created heaven?
 
If God created a mankind purposefully sinful so that He could then go to an extraordinary effort to "save" us, what was the purpose?

Again, the purpose or reason God created humanity (beings with MFW) was so that they could enjoy eternal fellowship with Him in heaven (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4). MFW (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) is what makes humans like God/superior to animals. Do not blame God for the sinful choice some souls make, because He is doing everything possible to teach souls their need for salvation (Heb. 6:10, 12:5-7, Rom. 5:6-8).
 
Again, the purpose or reason God created humanity (beings with MFW) was so that they could enjoy eternal fellowship with Him in heaven (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4). MFW (Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) is what makes humans like God/superior to animals. Do not blame God for the sinful choice some souls make, because He is doing everything possible to teach souls their need for salvation (Heb. 6:10, 12:5-7, Rom. 5:6-8).
Perhaps I'm not being clear. I am interested in the fact that 99%+ of every human that ever existed never heard of Christ or the God of the Jews. Why would a loving God condemn 117 Billion humans to experience eternal torture in hell? Not out of sinfulness, because without any framework for what is sinful how can any blame be placed? Perhaps there is a path for them as noted in 1 Timothy 4- 10 "In fact this is why we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers."

Even the Christian community that has 45,000 variations do not agree about what is sinful. Most would agree that mankind is inherently sinful by nature. We are all happy with "generic sin" just not our personal sin. How could anyone expect that the utter majority of all humanity past, present and future would have any concept of one God demanding their eternal torture or submission and call that a loving God? What is there to recommend the world to Christianity. In Christ's name millions have been murdered, burned at the stake, torched, subjugated, exterminated and impoverished. What in the past 2,000 years would invite a truth seeker to join forces and commit their lives and fortunes to a system dedicated to torcher and subjugation for the past 1,726 yrs? If the morality of Christians are the high ground, what is lowest ground? Perhaps that is because morality is what you do and we have left that behind in pursuit of "believing right." God has no interest in our deeds thus our morality.

Jesus said that true Christians are a bright light that all can see, and in so doing we attract others to our Savior. Paul tells us that no matter what Christianity you claim without real love, you are just noise. Jesus said you must take up your cross daily and follow Him. Jesus said you will be judged by what you do and who you become (Matt25). Is that something that 21st Christianity preaches, teaches or even believes? Or do we preach a 60 second prayer agreement guarantees you heaven and a life you can live any way you darned well please. Being useless to God is now the focus of our anti-works theologies. Bizarrely, the more useless we are to God the more Holy we feel being free of works. We have come to believe that we can happily live without any conscience because our God has no interest in what we do just so long as we claim to believe "right." This same detachment of "faith in or dogmas" from real life is what has demeaned Jesus in the eyes of the world. As a result Christianity in North America is rapidly diminishing. Fortunately it is flourishing in the Global South and Africa where being Christian is overcoming nominal Christianity and where real sacrifice is an everyday reality.
 
If God created a mankind purposefully sinful so that He could then go to an extraordinary effort to "save" us, what
was the purpose? And why doom 99%+ all who ever lived? Did He create hell at the same time He created heaven?
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