Job 19 v 25-27a I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He will stand upon the earth. Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger.
The book of Job
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Job 19 v 25-27a I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He will stand upon the earth. Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. I will see Him for myself; my eyes will behold Him, and not as a stranger.
so you believe Job persecuted believers? ... you believe Job went into the houses of believers and cast them into prison? ... smh ...
show me one verse where God said that Job did such things ... and I'm asking where God said that ... not Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu.
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reneweddaybyday said:
Where in the book of Job did God call Job a potsherd?
However, Job continuously cried out to God during his suffering which, unbeknownst to Job, was inflicted upon him by satan.
Jeremiah said of himself that he contended with God:
Jeremiah 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead [H7378 = rîḇ] with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously?
Do you believe God call Jeremiah a potsherd in Isaiah 45:9? ... or is it only Job you include in your claim?
maybe it will help if you read the verse in other translations:
New International Version
Its undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
New Living Translation
Its belly is covered with scales as sharp as glass. It plows up the ground as it drags through the mud.
English Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds; he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.
New American Standard Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of pottery; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mud.
Amplified Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of broken pottery; He moves across and spreads out [grooves] like a threshing sledge on the mire (muddy river banks).
American Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire.
English Revised Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: he spreadeth as it were a threshing wain upon the mire.
International Standard Version
"Beneath him he is armored as with sharp potsherds; he tears through muddy ground like a threshing sledge through grain.
NET Bible
Its underparts are the sharp points of potsherds, it leaves its mark in the mud like a threshing sledge.
You don't like the word "hide" ? ... how about "undersides/underparts" (NIV; ESV; NASB; Amp; ASV; ERV; NET) or "belly" (NLV); or "beneath him he is armored" (ISV) ...
"hide" only refers to the skin or the covering of an animal or creature.
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Where in the book of Job did God call Job a potsherd?
No, God did not call Job a potsherd in Isaiah, although I understand why you would believe that due to your disparaging opinion of Job.
In Isaiah 45:9, those who strive with God are the ones who want nothing to do with God.
However, Job continuously cried out to God during his suffering which, unbeknownst to Job, was inflicted upon him by satan.
Jeremiah said of himself that he contended with God:
Jeremiah 12:1 Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I plead [H7378 = rîḇ] with thee: yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very treacherously?
Do you believe God call Jeremiah a potsherd in Isaiah 45:9? ... or is it only Job you include in your claim?
I have explained my understanding of the verse several times. you disagree. so be it.
maybe it will help if you read the verse in other translations:
New International Version
Its undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
New Living Translation
Its belly is covered with scales as sharp as glass. It plows up the ground as it drags through the mud.
English Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds; he spreads himself like a threshing sledge on the mire.
New American Standard Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of pottery; He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mud.
Amplified Bible
“His underparts are like sharp pieces of broken pottery; He moves across and spreads out [grooves] like a threshing sledge on the mire (muddy river banks).
American Standard Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire.
English Revised Version
His underparts are like sharp potsherds: he spreadeth as it were a threshing wain upon the mire.
International Standard Version
"Beneath him he is armored as with sharp potsherds; he tears through muddy ground like a threshing sledge through grain.
NET Bible
Its underparts are the sharp points of potsherds, it leaves its mark in the mud like a threshing sledge.
You don't like the word "hide" ? ... how about "undersides/underparts" (NIV; ESV; NASB; Amp; ASV; ERV; NET) or "belly" (NLV); or "beneath him he is armored" (ISV) ...
"hide" only refers to the skin or the covering of an animal or creature.
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Job suffered as did Israel, and it is clearly shown in Lamentations 3:1-18 There is a parallel verse in the book of Job for each one of the first 18 verses in Lamentations chapter three.
An example is Lamentations
Lam 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
The difference between these two verses is that Job is accusing God of removing his hope, while Jeremiah does not.
Lam 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
This was one of the sections in Job where Job is a requesting a daysman that would not terrify him.
Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.
Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.
Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.
The previous was color coded to make it easier to follow. The orange is where Job requests a judge of clay from God, and Elihu answers that wish.
The red is where Job stipulates two requirements from God before he will answer, and Elihu stipulates that he is meeting that requirement.
The blue is where Job tells God if God meets his requirements he will speak, and since Elihu is meeting Job's requirements Elihu demands that Job stands up in his courtroom and give his plea.
An example is Lamentations
Lam 3:18 And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
The difference between these two verses is that Job is accusing God of removing his hope, while Jeremiah does not.
Lam 3:1 I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
This was one of the sections in Job where Job is a requesting a daysman that would not terrify him.
Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 9:35Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.
Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Job 13:22 Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.
Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.
The previous was color coded to make it easier to follow. The orange is where Job requests a judge of clay from God, and Elihu answers that wish.
The red is where Job stipulates two requirements from God before he will answer, and Elihu stipulates that he is meeting that requirement.
The blue is where Job tells God if God meets his requirements he will speak, and since Elihu is meeting Job's requirements Elihu demands that Job stands up in his courtroom and give his plea.
So if you believe what you wrote, then explain your interpretation of this story with the explicit words of the apostle James about Job in his letter to believers.
Do you accept the epistle of James as part of Scrupture? As God’s word? If so, then can you address James’s specific words about Job in light of your independent view of Job’s story? And why is James using Job as an example to believers?
It is not a story, it is one verse. The verse states that Job had endurance.
What about Eliphaz.
Paul quotes Eliphaz. 1Co 3:19--------. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Eliphaz also parallels the first two beatitudes.
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Job 5:11To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety.
Nobody is confused about the epistle of James and the narrative (story) in the book of Job. Are you trying to equivocate?
And we already know James referes to Job’s patience (endurance, patience, patient continuance, waiting) in his letter. Are you trying to avoid the question?
Can you address James’s specific words about Job and James’s theme of suffering in light of your independent view of Job’s story?
And why is James using Job as an example to the believers he is writing to?
A couple of differences between Lamentations and Job …
in Lamentations the suffering was a direct consequence of the sin of Israel (Lam 1:5; Lam 1:8) ... Jeremiah lamented over the sin of the nation; God revealed to Jeremiah and Jeremiah prophesied that Israel would be taken captive (Jer 25:8-11).
Read Lamentations 2 and you will see all the times Jeremiah stated that the LORD afflicted Israel. Jeremiah also knew the suffering was just on the part of God because of the sin of Israel.
in Job the suffering is not the result of sin on the part of Job. The suffering is clearly shown as an attack by satan upon Job because Job was declared by God to be perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and escheweth evil (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3).
In the case of Job, it was satan who caused the tremendous suffering (Job 1:12-19; Job 2:7). In Job we read of Job calling out to God, asking God to reveal if Job had sinned. If Job had sinned, he wanted to know so he could repent and have his relationship with God restored.
In Job it was satan ... not God ... who afflicted Job by killing his children, his servants, and destroying his herds as well as smiting Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.
Read the next verses:
Job 10:1-3; 7-8
1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 I will say unto God, Do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me.
3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?
...
7 Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand.
8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.
Job believed God was afflicting him, as did Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu.
You know, and I know, that Job was not condemned by God for any wickedness on Job's part.
satan's accusations were being tested ... and satan failed.
Job 10:17 Thou renewest thy witnesses against me, and increasest thine indignation upon me; changes and war are against me.
Job's friends were not comforters ... they witnessed against Job ... and you believe the same as Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu.
In response to the statements of his friends that Job must have sinned, Job had this to say about them:
Job 13:4-12
4 But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value.
5 O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and it should be your wisdom.
6 Hear now my reasoning, and hearken to the pleadings of my lips.
7 Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?
8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?
9 Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?
10 He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.
11 Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?
12 Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to bodies of clay.
Job's friends kept insisting that Job had sinned and if he would repent, God would forgive and restore Job.
If these men were sent from God to "comfort" Job, then Job was at a loss as to any sort of "daysman" between himself and God.
Elihu did not state he was a "daysman". Elihu claimed he stood in God's place ... yet acknowledged he was "made of clay".
Elihu believed the same about Job as Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar
Job 33:8-14, 27-28
8 Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,
9 I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.
10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
...
27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
Elihu heard Job say he had not sinned, but Elihu did not believe Job had not sinned. Therefore, Elihu encouraged Job to contess to a sin (or sins) Job had not committed (vs 27) and God would forgive him (vs 28).
Job asked God to show him where he had sinned ... and Elihu basically told Job that God had spoken to him but Job had not "perceived it" (Job 33:14). You and I both know that God was silent from Job 2 through Job 38. All the words in between were discussions between Job and his friends.
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If you are comparing Lamentations to Job then Lamentations describes the ash heap that we find Job in and in this case Jeremiah in. Neither of them is guilty of sin, but they are both interceding on behalf of those who sinned. In Job he intercedes for his children lest they have cursed God in their hearts and in Lamentations Jeremiah is interceding on behalf of Israel who has also sinned. In both Job and Lamentations the interceder (Jeremiah or Job) is there by choice. Job is choosing to pay the price for his children, the burnt offering, and Jeremiah is choosing to be there on the ash heap when he could have gone to Babylon and been well taken care of.
The accusation against Job was that the things that happened to him were because of a hidden sin. There was no hidden sin that caused the things that happened to him, on the contrary we know that Satan was accusing Job of something, the attack was designed to prove whether or not that accusation was true, and it proved the accusation was false.
Job was asking God to forgive his children if they had cursed Him in their heart. The question concerning righteousness is "as you have done it will be done to you". So if you are asking God to forgive those who cursed Him in their heart then it requires that Job has forgiven those who have cursed him. When he entreats God on behalf of the three "friends" that is when everything with Job is reconciled. He forgave them, and so God answers His prayer and forgives His children who had been dead in their sins.
Of course there was hidden sin, and it is called pride. Why else would God ask Job if he was going to make a covenant with the King over all the children of pride, and take him for a servant forever? The King that beholds all high things.
Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
That isn't what the verse says, tttallison.
The verse says Will he [leviathan] make a covenant with thee?
Isaiah 44:20 refers to the person who is an idolater:
Isaiah 44:9-10, 13-20
9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
...
13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?
20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?
vs 20 — worshipping an idol is as empty to the nourishment of the spirit of man as eating ashes is to the nourishment of the body.
Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food ... please note, Job spoke these words in response to Eliphaz.
Psalm 19:9-10 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Psalm 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
1 Peter 2:2-3 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
I have explained this verse to you many times, tttallison ... most recently here.
you and I are not in agreement concerning the meaning of this verse.
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How is it different? It takes two to make a covenant. Why is God asking Job if he is going to take the king over all the children of pride for a servant for ever? God had no reason to ask Job that question except Job had a problem with pride.
You are accusing me of equivocating? You are taking one verse and making a book out it. If that isn't adding to the scripture nothing is.
Would you also agree with the one that said James was a priest after the order of Melchizedek? Melchizedek had neither father or mother.
Who said that James was a priest after the order of Melchizedek? I don't recall any bible verse saying that.
Of course you can't see it, in your mind the only reason someone suffers is because they have sinned, Job suffered therefore to keep your little world intact it must be because he has sinned. That is the ministry of condemnation.
If you could see the Priesthood of Melchisedek you could see that there is a price to pay to cover the sins of others. Jesus paid that price, He is the high priest according to Melchisedek and all the believers are also priests, not according to the order of the Levitical priesthood but according to the order of Melchisedek.
Compare
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
with
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
and
Philemon 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account; 19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.
These are the three pillars of the priesthood according to the order of Melchisedek. And it is the central focus of Job.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job 42:10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
The royal law defines righteousness saying "as you have done it will be done to you". Job prayed that God would forgive his children if they have cursed God in their hearts. So then the three friends cursed Job in their hearts accusing him of hidden sin, he forgave them, and so God forgave his children.
Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but you seem to be suggesting that the three "friends" of Job cursed Job in what they said to him, while in their hearts, they were blessing Job. Jesus said that what comes out of the mouth starts in the heart:
(Mat 15:18) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
So if the three were cursing Job with their mouths, they were also cursing him in their hearts.
What I meant by what I said was that they spoke what they were feeling and didn't keep it hidden in their hearts. It wasn't necessarily cursing, but rather what they knew.