Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[JohnDB]

Election...
Not a term in Greek or Hebrew.

If it doesn't end in "ing" and is not a verb....it isn't really Hebrew.
Hebrew is always a verb based metaphoric language....all of the New Testament is a Greek rendition of Hebrew concepts.

Called out ones....that's the closer term we used in English. The ones being called is even closer....it's not a true past tense thing.


In science and physics specifically there exists a parallel of sorts in a hypothesis concerning superposition.
Schrödinger's Cat....

You really need to understand that cat in order to have an intelligent conversation about what a Christian is....
Because in so many ways....Christians are the cat.

And until that concensus is reached....you really can't have any sort of meaningful conversation.

 

[Magenta]

Stated nowhere in scripture...

Question: How can you tell the people you witness to, who are believers or unbelievers?

The natural man without the Spirit of God is an unbeliever. But like many you ascribe to
the natural man things he is incapable of and that Jesus actually says are impossible.

He can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God and that is definitely Biblical.

You butcher Scripture.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians ch 2 v 14

 

[John146]

The natural man without the Spirit of God is an unbeliever. But like many you ascribe to
the natural man things he is incapable of and that Jesus actually says are impossible.

He can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God and that is definitely Biblical.

See post 656. The Spirit is always there when God's word is preached. It is the Spirit that convicts the hearer when confronted with the preaching of the cross.

 

[Roger316]

As you know the foundational doctrine of Reformed/Calvinists is that God bequeaths belief/faith to his pre-selected after a person is regenerated.

Because they have adopted a false soteriology when they read scripture they read it into the words, when in fact scripture asserts nothing of the sort.

Regeneration prior to belief/faith is completely and totally a false doctrine.

Why do you say it is a false doctrine? The reason I ask is because it seems obvious to me that regernation must preceed regeneration. Why do I say this?

Imagine a group of people who refuse to believe that 2 + 2 = 4. No matter how patiently the equation is explained, no matter how many times someone places two blocks beside two more blocks, they simply will not accept the conclusion. The problem isn’t the evidence. The problem is that something in them is committed to rejecting what is plainly true.

In the same way, the New Testament describes people refusing to acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the King of Israel. His miracles were performed publicly, repeatedly, and undeniably. Yet many continued to suppress what they saw and chose to live as though it were not true. Their unbelief was not a failure of evidence but a refusal of the heart.

A quick survey of the New Testament shows that Jesus Himself explains this stubborn unbelief. People reject the truth not because it is unclear but because their hearts are resistant to it. Scripture describes the remedy in various ways: circumcision of the heart, a new heart, the removal of the heart of stone, being born again. All these images point to the same reality: a person must first be inwardly renewed by God before they can truly see, accept, and believe the truth that stands in front of them.

This is why regeneration must precede belief. Without a renewed heart, the mind will continue to treat even the clearest truth the way the stubborn mathematician treats 2 + 2 = 4—rejecting what is obvious because something deeper is unwilling to receive it.

 

[Magenta]

See post 656. The Spirit is always there when God's word is preached. It is the Spirit that convicts the hearer when confronted with the preaching of the cross.

You butcher Scripture. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the natural man/ those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1 v 18

 

[John146]

You butcher Scripture. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the natural man/ those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1 v 18

According to Ephesians 1, when does the believer receive the Spirit? After or before you believed?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which i s the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Magenta]

According to Ephesians 1, when does the believer receive the Spirit? After or before you believed?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which i s the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Do you call being sealed receiving the Spirit? My Bible says I was made alive when I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

When I was dead in my trespasses and sins, I was not a believer. God rescued me from that state.

 

[Cameron143]

Read it again...it's not foolishness for the believer to preach the cross to an ubeliever.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

So...it is foolishness to unbelievers?

 

[rogerg]

According to Ephesians 1, when does the believer receive the Spirit? After or before you believed?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which i s the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

No, the "heard the word of truth" is spiritual hearing not human, earthly hearing. They must first become saved, given spiritual hearing, from that, they will believe.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[Magenta]

Why do some reject it, and others believe and accept it?

Deuteronomy 30 v 6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Magenta]

So...it is foolishness to unbelievers?

Notice how hard they try to misrepresent...

 

[Magenta]

No, the "heard the word of truth" is spiritual hearing not human, earthly hearing. They must first become saved, given spiritual hearing, from that, they will believe.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The free will camp claim is that everyone hears even though that contradicts what Jesus said.

But contradicting Jesus is par for the free will camp course.

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Cameron143]

According to Ephesians 1, when does the believer receive the Spirit? After or before you believed?

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which i s the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is the sealing of the Spirit; the baptism WITH the Spirit spoken of in Matthew 3:11 that Jesus does. It is different from the indwelling of the Spirit wherein we are placed into the body of Christ, which is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Jesus does the first and the Holy Spirit the latter.

 

[rogerg]

The free will camp claim is that everyone hears even though that contradicts what Jesus said.

But contradicting Jesus is par for the free will camp course.

John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

Great choice of verses - can't be said any more clearly nor directly than said in those verses. Thanks Magenta.

 

[HeIsHere]

Why do you say it is a false doctrine? The reason I ask is because it seems obvious to me that regernation must preceed regeneration. Why do I say this?

Is this correct or did you mean to say that regeneration precede belief?

Is there a scripture where God regenerates a person which includes sanctification btw (according to the meaning of the word) prior to belief?
Also please show where scripture clearly speaks of a new heart first so that a person believes?

 

[Magenta]

Great choice of verses - can't be said any more clearly nor directly than said in those verses. Thanks Magenta.

Meanwhile we have those who insist everyone hears. That man by himself is not incapable. Everyone is free.

Their blindness is epic. To some God is not even required in the process of coming to believe. They glorify themselves.

 

[John146]

Do you call being sealed receiving the Spirit? My Bible says I was made alive when I was dead in my trespasses and sins.

When I was dead in my trespasses and sins, I was not a believer. God rescued me from that state.

You quoted Ephesians 2. God quickened you with his Spirit upon believing the gospel. That's Ephesians 1.

 

[John146]

No, the "heard the word of truth" is spiritual hearing not human, earthly hearing. They must first become saved, given spiritual hearing, from that, they will believe.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

My bad, I took my Calvin goggles off and read the plain scripture.

 

[Magenta]

You quoted Ephesians 2. God quickened you with his Spirit upon believing the gospel. That's Ephesians 1.

Are you going to answer the question? Here's another: did your incurably wicked heart grow the good fruit of faith?

Reminder: none are good, though free willers detest that truth, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Jesus said so. But according to free willers this is not so and some rewrite the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.

Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”

 

[GWH]

The gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

The preaching of the cross to unbelievers is foolishness. They are blinded by the god of this world.

Slaves to sin. Refusing to come into the Light. Lovers of darkness. Opposed to the spiritual things of God.

Hostile to God in their minds, and incapable of submitting to Him.

Uh, all are unbelievers before they become believers,
but I can believe preaching the Gospel to tulipists is futile,
if the closed-mindedness of those on CC is typical.