A Question on Works...

[Soyeong]

No one can be justified by keeping the old covenant. New covenant believers follow Christ and the Holy Spirit and their standards are higher than that of the old covenant; so if someone follows the old covenant rules, they're trying to be justified by a system that God has already declared inferior.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers it will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the it other than in order to earn our righteousness, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). It is false that the the only reason that someone could have for obeying the Law of God is in order to become justified, but rather that reason has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of its goal.

The Son is the radiant of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so the way to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant is by following his example, which is the same as the standard of the Mosaic Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[Soyeong]

I think you are confusing what we do to be saved, and what we do because we are saved.

That is a good distinction to make.

The things in both of your lists are not things we do to earn our salvation. Nobody is saved because they do things like returning lost property, leaving gl]eanings for the poor, rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, or honouring marriage. We are saved by God's grace alone, as Paul wrte to the Christians at Ephesus:

(Eph 2:4 NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
(Eph 2:5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(Eph 2:6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(Eph 2:7) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Eph 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul said that we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously causing us to experience a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation. The fact that we can't earn our salvation as the result of doing those works does not mean that we are not our salvation does not requires us to choose to be doers of them for correct reasons, such as a faith.

 

[DavidLamb]

That is a good distinction to make.


In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul said that we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously causing us to experience a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation. The fact that we can't earn our salvation as the result of doing those works does not mean that we are not our salvation does not requires us to choose to be doers of them for correct reasons, such as a faith.

Yes, I agree, as you seem to be saying what I said, that we are to do good works because we are saved, not in order to become saved. Thanks.

 

[rewriter]

I’m a slow learner who is a little confused. Maybe someone can set me straight

I’ve been told that if I keep the First Testament Commands, I am trying to earn forgiveness by works. This, it is claimed, abolishes the Grace of Christ. So apparently, these are forbidden works:

To sanctify the Sabbath - Ex. 20:8
To love God - Deut. 6:5
To hallow God's name - Lev. 22:32
To honor father and mother -Ex. 20:12
To return lost property - Deut. 22:1
To build a Sanctuary - Ex. 25:8
To pray to God - Ex. 23:25; Deut. 6:13
To rebuke the sinner -Lev. 19:17
To leave the gleanings for the poor -Lev. 19:9
To give charity according to one's means -Deut. 15:11
To ensure that scales and weights are correct -Lev. 19:36
To pay wages at the time due -Deut. 24:15

If this is true, then why don’t these commands also abolish grace? Are they not works?

Bring in the Poor - Luke 14:12-14
Render to Caesar - Matthew 22:19-21
Love Your Neighbor - Matthew 22:39
Celebrate the Lord’s Supper - Matthew 26:26-27
Feed My Sheep - John 21:15-16
Baptize My Disciples - Matthew 28:19
Honor Marriage - Matthew 19:6
Do Not Despise Little Ones - Matthew 18:10
Do Unto Others - Matthew 7:12
Keep Your Word - Matthew 5:37
Repent - Matthew 4:17
Follow Me - Matthew 4:19

People will likely not like my observations, and it really takes far too many words for me to explain things, and it is far easier to support tradition and find reasons to challenge me, thus I am getting tired of trying to explain to those who choose not to see, but the "10 commandments" are not really commandments, but statements of how one will behave when one has thing right. Think about a list of what one will do when they are a responsible adult and then think about how one becomes a responsible adult. It is not by doing the actions, but by maturing enough that the actions are what one does. When we focus on "this is what I need to do" we remain bound to a set of rules. When we do the proper things just because they are proper, not because we are told to do them, we have matured. But also, claiming to have matured while not doing the actions is likewise a folly, and just like attempting to do all the proper actions in order to be mature is just a different form of immaturity.

Theologically, the actual sin is not that which we do improperly, it is the hidden motivation behind why we do things improperly, the motivation we deny to both God and ourselves. Paul in Romans 1:25 uses the exact same definite article two times, once before truth and once before lie. Before truth it is translated as "the", before lie it usually gets translated "a". But heaven forbid, if we translated that exact same word the exact same way both times, we end up with either two generalized terms, and truth is not a specific thing, or we end up with two specific terms, and there is a single lie that causes all the problems and we each singularly choose to believe it, and that cannot be, our egos will not let us.

 

[Seeker47]

People will likely not like my observations, and it really takes far too many words for me to explain things, and it is far easier to support tradition and find reasons to challenge me, thus I am getting tired of trying to explain to those who choose not to see, but the "10 commandments" are not really commandments, but statements of how one will behave when one has thing right. Think about a list of what one will do when they are a responsible adult and then think about how one becomes a responsible adult. It is not by doing the actions, but by maturing enough that the actions are what one does. When we focus on "this is what I need to do" we remain bound to a set of rules. When we do the proper things just because they are proper, not because we are told to do them, we have matured. But also, claiming to have matured while not doing the actions is likewise a folly, and just like attempting to do all the proper actions in order to be mature is just a different form of immaturity.

Theologically, the actual sin is not that which we do improperly, it is the hidden motivation behind why we do things improperly, the motivation we deny to both God and ourselves. Paul in Romans 1:25 uses the exact same definite article two times, once before truth and once before lie. Before truth it is translated as "the", before lie it usually gets translated "a". But heaven forbid, if we translated that exact same word the exact same way both times, we end up with either two generalized terms, and truth is not a specific thing, or we end up with two specific terms, and there is a single lie that causes all the problems and we each singularly choose to believe it, and that cannot be, our egos will not let us.

I really don't have a problem with those who choose not to see. It is those who do not take the time to read who cause me grief.

I understand the difficulty in explaining difficult ideas in written words. That is where CC is so valuable. I really try to work on that skill when I post. If anyone gets value from a post that is great, but I learn through the process anyway.

All the best my friend.

 

[Watchman22]

Well, what you should have been told is that it is impossible to earn forgiveness by keeping any command other than that which expresses God's requirement for salvation, which is to believe in God's Son Jesus as Messiah and Lord incarnate, after which the indwelling HS will motivate you to do various loving works (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Rom. 5:5, Eph. 2:8-10).

No such thing as "believing" in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation GWH, you should have learned that by now.

 

[rewriter]

I really don't have a problem with those who choose not to see. It is those who do not take the time to read who cause me grief.

I understand the difficulty in explaining difficult ideas in written words. That is where CC is so valuable. I really try to work on that skill when I post. If anyone gets value from a post that is great, but I learn through the process anyway.

All the best my friend.

The thing that bothered me the most was a response to a comment I made about using some obscure science. Another poster did a very little research and told me that they read that "X" could invalidate the study I cited, so I had no point. But if they had investigated further, they would have known that the source they looked at wanted to discredit the study, so they ignored that the scientists who did the study reported that they recognized that possibility and repeatedly checked to see if "X" was influencing the results and consistently found absolutely no such evidence.

My work is currently close to 180 8 1/2x11 pages with another 25 pages of bibliography. I cannot express much in a thousand words. Now if I can finish what I consider the hard part, safely beyond what multiple PhD's originally thought I could support, but are now amazed at my logic, then I will be submitting it to a patiently waiting publisher.

 

[Seeker47]

The thing that bothered me the most was a response to a comment I made about using some obscure science. Another poster did a very little research and told me that they read that "X" could invalidate the study I cited, so I had no point. But if they had investigated further, they would have known that the source they looked at wanted to discredit the study, so they ignored that the scientists who did the study reported that they recognized that possibility and repeatedly checked to see if "X" was influencing the results and consistently found absolutely no such evidence.

My work is currently close to 180 8 1/2x11 pages with another 25 pages of bibliography. I cannot express much in a thousand words. Now if I can finish what I consider the hard part, safely beyond what multiple PhD's originally thought I could support, but are now amazed at my logic, then I will be submitting it to a patiently waiting publisher.

Sounds like a serious work with major research. I hope it all works out!