Dysfunctional Faith-Alone justification

[2Christ]

@Inquisitor

about obedience is the fruit;

John 15:1-7 is often quoted to speak about faith and remaining in Christ, but Jesus Himself connects abiding in Him with obedience.

First, notice what Jesus says:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman... Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away... Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.” (John 15:1, 2, 4 ASV)

Jesus teaches that a person must remain connected to Him, just as a branch remains connected to the vine. A branch that does not bear fruit is removed. The question then becomes: How do we abide in Christ?

Jesus answers that only a few verses later:

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10 ASV)

This is the direct explanation of what abiding means. To abide in Christ is not merely to believe that He exists or to make a profession of faith. It is to continue in His words and keep His commandments. Jesus points to His own example: just as He remained in the Father's love by keeping the Father's commandments, His disciples remain in His love by keeping His commandments.

This agrees with what Jesus taught earlier:

“If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15 ASV)

And:

“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me.” (John 14:21 ASV)

And:

“If a man love me, he will keep my word.” (John 14:23 ASV)

So when Jesus speaks about bearing fruit in John 15, He is not speaking about a fruit that appears apart from obedience. The fruit comes because the branch remains attached to the vine, and remaining attached to the vine means continuing in His teachings and obeying His words.

This is why Jesus also says:

“If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.” (John 15:7 ASV)

Notice that Jesus does not simply say, "If you believe in Me." He says, "if My words abide in you." His words must remain in the heart and be lived out. Obedience is not separated from abiding; it is part of abiding.

The same truth appears elsewhere in Jesus' teaching:

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46 ASV)

And:

“Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock.” (Matthew 7:24 ASV)

John 15 therefore presents a simple but powerful picture: Christ is the vine, His followers are the branches, and the evidence that a branch is truly abiding in Him is that it bears fruit. According to Jesus' own explanation, this abiding is expressed by keeping His commandments, letting His words remain in us, and continuing faithfully in what He taught. A branch that refuses to remain in His words cannot continue to bear fruit, because obedience and abiding are inseparably connected in the teachings of Christ.

 

[Kroogz]

How can any person have faith-alone without works, and also have their faith with works? How can any person be justified by faith-alone without works, and also by justified by their faith, with works?

Just do all the works I do........you will be safe and have no questions then.

 

[Gideon300]

New Covenant, new life, new law. The Law of Moses has a job. For those who are born again, the Law of Moses has been superseded. Now that is true replacement theology!

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." Galatians 2:19. What laws apply to dead people?

But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6.

"All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Galatians 3: 1-12

When you follow the law, you are not living by faith. That means that you are not pleasing God.

"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:23-25

The law does not save us and neither does it make us righteous. "Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:14

I live in Australia. I moved here nearly 60 years. I am subject to the laws of Australia, not the laws of the place I was born. I live spiritually in a new "nation". I am not subject to the Law that was given to Israel through Moses.

Some Christians seem to think that people like me want to make easy on myself. I can assure you that obeying the law, ticking the boxes, is much easier than being led by the Spirit, especially at first. And of course there are the unwritten Christian laws. When I was first saved, you went to church twice on Sunday if you wanted to make a good impression. Some places required you to have a beard. OK, the women were mostly exempt (joke). A friend of mine was told beards were not acceptable even though every one of the denomination's founders had beards.

All who are born again are led by the Spirit. The question becomes, are we following that leading? Too often, intellect, emotion and self-will override the inner witness of the Spirit. Law leads people to try to do what is right. The Spirit leads us to do what pleases God. (Judges 17:6)
​

 

[Proximus]

That's because the challenge of dysfunction only has to do with faith alone and works, not about merit.

The whole issue about merit, perhaps, arose from misunderstanding the Paul's words about being proud by the works/deeds, for at those times those of the Judaic Church were thinking of the circumcion as the distinctive mark, separating them from the Gentiles, thus those who were regarded not as the true nation, thus impure. So, Peter had to be specifically explained that in a vision, namely, about the pure and impure.

So, the idea was generated, also with the help of other fallacies, and this in reaction to the various meritorios works, established in the Roman Catholic Church, which related to the rituals, monkish practices, acquiring the benefits with regard to the salvatino, that the whole "works"- thing, is meritorious, and that the Lord gives the status "justified" by looking into those meritorious works.

In that respect both the Roman Catholics and those who begin to present the fulfillment of the Divine Commandments as the meritorious, were not in the truth.

For the truth is that the Lord Alone has Merit, He alone is Holy (with Father being in Him, and He in the Father), and yet he requires both faith and charity, as the necessities for salvation. And yet a man does not and cannot technically acquire merit for those,, because all merit belongs to the Lord, who is Alone the True Justice and Righteousness. And so the justification is not kind of passing of the Divine Justice to a man, to become his personal nature, for it is Divine.

But justification is essentially the regeneration, that is when a man looks to the Lord and shun evils as sins (thus does the deeds of the law, but of the ceremonical Judaic law, thinking to be proud in that), ascribing all the Merit, everything good to the Lord alone, then the Lord is regenerating a man, and thus comes to Him Himself (with His Father in Him), and dwell with man. So, a man then lives from the Lord, who is Justice.

 

[Roger316]

That's because the challenge of dysfunction only has to do with faith alone and works, not about merit.

Whether the works are 'meritorious' or unmeritorious, it's still impossible for any living person to be without works at all.

The same for being justified by faith alone without works, whether meritorious or not. No one can then have any works, meritorious or not, and still be saved by faith alone, being no more alone, but with works...Meritorious or not.

Sure, the way you define faith alone it makes sense. But the Reformer definition isn't absent of works as you seem to suggest. Their argument with the Catholic church was over meritorious works. Faith Alone doesn't mean Faith without any works whatsoever.

 

[TruthDefender]

How can any person have faith-alone without works, and also have their faith with works? How can any person be justified by faith-alone without works, and also by justified by their faith, with works?

Faith alone justification is logical and practical dysfunction. I.e. It can only justify a person by having faith-alone without works, then how can it work to justify anyone, that is practicing their faith.

Let's look at the logical and practical malfunction of justification by faith-alone without works: 1) It cannot be for people living their faith, since their faith is with works. 2) It be for anyone without works, since no living person can be without works.

1). Since faith-alone is only without works, then no person can have faith-alone with works.

And so, a person can only have faith-alone, when not practicing their faith. Else, their faith is with works, not alone without works.

Therefore, no living person can only be justified by faith-alone with works, and live by their faith. Else they are justified by their faith with works.

Either a person is justified by their faith-alone without works, or by their faith with works, not both: Else alone is no more alone, and works is no more works. As Scripture would say:

For if justification be by faith-alone, then is it no more with works: otherwise alone is no more alone. But if faith be with works, then is it no more justification by faith-alone: otherwise work is no more work.

And so, we conclude that justification by faith-alone without works, is not practical, because faith cannot be practiced, and also justify without works.

The only practical justification for the living, is by faith and with works. Else no living person can ever by justified by faith and live by their faith.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

2). No living person can have faith-alone without works, since no living person can be without works. The living that do no works at all, is doing an evil work, by not doing good:

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Only the dead can do no works at all, and so only the dead can have faith-alone without works.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And yet, the dead can have no faith at all, else faith is no more faith, and dead is no more dead.

Conclusion: Justification by faith-alone without works, is so dysfunctional, that not even the dead can practice it, much less the living...

I believe that a person can have faith by taking the name Christian, but at the same time not living the faith; being a hypocrite. I have known many people to say they’re “Christian”, while not living it.

Unfortunately, weren’t many of us hypocrites in college (back in the day)?

 

[TruthDefender]

What is really making me wonder, is how it is only possible that almost the whole civilization can be temporarily built on a few passages of Paul taken out of context, and the whole teaching of him, including the words about love to the law/commandments by his spiritual man, the whole teaching of Gospel about the commandments leading to life eternal be ignored?

It’s not ignored, it just sounds like you’re not understanding it.

 

[TruthDefender]

Schrödinger's cat....

Anyone familiar with the concept?

Because a Believer is the cat....philosophically

However, Scripture has the answers, not men.

 

[TruthDefender]

False. Scripture never speaks of any alone attached to faith, that is not dead, but also alive to save the soul.

Scripture speaks:

“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭24‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

James{2:14}
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Other than in James 2, The insertion of faith-alone into any other Scripture of salvation and justification by faith, is only by people adding faith-alone to the Scripture, where it's not written:

Again, not true: I didn’t add anything to the above quoted Scripture, other than an underline and bold print.

“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Deu 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

We see here, that the prohibition of adding words to Scripture, is in order for God's people to keep His commandments. Which notably, justification by faith-alone without any works, forbids keeping His commandments by that saving faith. Why? Then it is justification by faith with keeping God's commandments, and not by faith-alone:

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
We also see, that having faith in Jesus Christ is not without keeping His commandments; And so the instrument of God's salvation is not faith-alone, which is always without works. (Else once again definitions must be changed, Faith-alone is with keeping commandments, or keeping commandments is not works.)

Your comment is very confusing! The Scripture is much easier to understand.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

No one can receive Jesus Christ with faith-alone, because Jesus has no faith-alone to give, but only faith to walk as He walked.

Your statement is false!!

If it didn’t exist, why did He express the warning statement “Faith alone is dead” in Scripture??

Col 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Yes, this walking in Him is the works, because He is living in you and you in Him.
Otherwise, you’re just a “Christian” on paper, dead to Him in the world of sin; you’re not walking The Way.

We receive Jesus' faith walking with Him, not standing alone doing nothing...Which is not possible in life, and especially not possible with Jesus Christ, who is always doing good:

Again false thinking. As I’ve stated, it is possible to be a hypocrite.

Luk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

So true!

Act 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good,

Yes, Jesus manifested His power doing works.

 

[ATG]

So, He taught both faith and charity, which is also confirmed by Jacob, which speaks the demonic faith, which is such when it is deprived of the life according to the commandments.

Well said. What good is faith in God without living by His commandments?

Pro 13:15
Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.

Hab 2:4
For the just shall live by his faith.

Demonic faith as in dead faith that both men and devils have, who do believe in the true God and Christ, but do not live by His commandments:

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Your point is well taken: what good is a life of faith in transgression to God's commandments? Only the unrepentant rejoice in rebellion to God.

Pro 2:14
Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;

The point of this fallacious and false opinion was to get rid of the ideas of the Roman-Catholic church about the meritorious works of the many kinds. But in throwing out the water, the folks threw out the baby, for the true works, that is, following the spiritual-moral commandments are, as well as the faith, done by the Lord's Help, for "without Me you cannot do anything", and so the merit for both belongs to the Lord Alone.

Exactly.

Grace and faith only rejects self-meritorious works, and certainly not works glorifying God by Jesus Christ:

Eph{2:8}
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Christians preaching justification by faith alone apart from their works, are just unrepentant transgressors, seeking justification for believing the same as devils on earth...Not one of them ever confess keeping God's commandments blameless in life:

Luk 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

1 Thess{5:22}
Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Phl 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

 

[ATG]

If that passage is understood with regard to those holy commandments, in which Paul, as he says, delight with his internal man, than the whole Christian teachings about charity are made null and void. What can be more insane!

Excellent again. Paul is not preaching a justification for inward faith alone, while continuing to transgress God's commandments.

It's the spiritual delusion of being inwardly justified and outwardly condemned.

Paul is only empathizing with Christians who find themselves double hearted, still having a desire to please God, but still displeasing Him in works. He's not preaching such fruitless faith for life, as the normal Christian experience.

In the end, he calls upon the Lord Jesus to save Him from such self destruction:

Rom 7:24,
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[ATG]

I’m trying to tell you the OP is not arguing Bible at all.

True. Dysfunctional faith alone justification without works is not Bible.

1 Cor{14:33}
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[ATG]

Good answers but you missed my point of questioning. what is a work? it is an action of doing something. Contextually a task, job, or a something to be completed.

I've given the answer. The dysfunction of justification by faith alone without works, is not by definition of works.

It's the contradiction of only be justified without works, and yet still being justified with works.

if you want a definition of 'works', then ask the faith alone Christians, that exclude 'works' from their justification. No matter the definition, the contradiction remains the same.

 

[ATG]

Good answers but you missed my point of questioning. what is a work? it is an action of doing something. Contextually a task, job, or a something to be completed.

There is the work of the Cross Completed by Christ alone

If you are simply showing a work of Christ, that no other man can do, then no argument.

But, if you mean we are only saved by faith alone without dying on a cross for sins, then that's obviously not what Scripture means by works pertaining to our faith and justification.

 

[ATG]

Good answers but you missed my point of questioning. what is a work? it is an action of doing something. Contextually a task, job, or a something to be completed.

Then there is a work of the believer to be done by them in faith unto the Lord

Now if you mean faith does not justify without the works of faith in the Lord, then of course I agree with the Scripture.

James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

But of course, faith alone justification excludes all works, not only works without faith.

Which is the dysfunction, since people can have good or evil works, but no living person can have no works at all, that are neither good nor evil...

 

[CS1]

I've given the answer. The dysfunction of justification by faith alone without works, is not by definition of works.

It's the contradiction of only be justified without works, and yet still being justified with works.

if you want a definition of 'works', then ask the faith alone Christians, that exclude 'works' from their justification. No matter the definition, the contradiction remains the same.

let ask you what is a work?

 

[Inquisitor]

see it like this, legalism is the pharisee way, the wrong way, they followed the only letter of the law without love, without understanding, without mercy, without justice. they were convinced they followed the "law". please refer to Matthew 23 full chapter for context.

Jesus is very clear about lawlessness, very clear when he said.

Mat 7:23 (KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (

a part from pulpit commentary the this verse;

our Lord speaks not of sin generally (τὴν ἁμαρτίαν), but of lawlessness (τὴν ἀνομίαν). He has throughout been insisting upon obedience to the Law in its final meaning as essentially necessary for his followers.

Yes Jesus did say this.

As we know, Jesus is God and He does not change!

What did jesus asked of us, his followers?;

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

You may be misunderstanding tow words in John 15.

Your reply was a typical Catholic reply because they interpret John 15 the same way.

I asked AI and restricted AI to just the Scripture, this means that the reply will not contain Catholic theology.

Scripture only!

What is the "fruit" in John 15?

While the text does not list specific items like a grocery list, Scripture defines "fruit" as the visible evidence of an internal
connection to the "True Vine" (John 15:1). Evidence of Discipleship: Bearing "much fruit" is how a believer proves they are a
disciple and brings glory to God (John 15:8).

The Fruit of the Spirit: Though found in Galatians 5:22-23, many scholars link the fruit in John 15 to these inward character traits (love, joy, peace, etc.) produced by the Holy Spirit.

Lasting Impact: Jesus refers to fruit as something that "should remain," often interpreted as the eternal results of spiritual labor,
such as bringing others to Christ (John 15:16).

Character and Actions: It encompasses the accumulation of a person’s conduct, attitudes, and actions that align with God's will.

What are His "Commandments"?

In this specific discourse, Jesus moves from the general concept of "commandments" to a specific "New Commandment".

The Singular Command: Jesus explicitly states, "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you" (John 15:12).

The Standard of Love: This goes beyond "loving your neighbor as yourself." The new standard is sacrificial love, modeled by Jesus laying down His life (John 15:13).The Connection to Obedience: Keeping these commandments is the requirement for "abiding in His love," just as Jesus kept the Father’s commandments (John 15:10).

End AI.

Throw the Catholic books in the bin.

 

[CS1]

If you are simply showing a work of Christ, that no other man can do, then no argument.

But, if you mean we are only saved by faith alone without dying on a cross for sins, then that's obviously not what Scripture means by works pertaining to our faith and justification.

again what is a work ?

 

[ATG]

The argument of works for salvation or the works do not save is a argument, that is futile at best unless one teaches salvation by works. Meaning our good action produced salvation.

And this is the limited one-sided argument of faith alone justification, that is against any works justifying a man.

Only two options are made: either justification by faith alone without works, Or salvation by works alone.

The one option consistently excluded is that of Scripture: Salvation by faith with works, and justification by works of faith.

James{2:22}
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The saving faith, not being alone without works, which is dead. And the justified works, not being alone without faith, which are also dead:

Heb {6:1}
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Paul preaches against justification by works of the law without faith, and James preaches against justification by faith without works, both being alone and dead to God.

Yet the "works" we are doing after salvation is motivated by Love for God not in a context of legalism as the Pharisees demanded Read Matthew chapter 23.

And once again here, the limited misuse of legalism, as though keeping the law is evil. Which is only possible if the law is evil:

1Ti 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Jas 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Legalism that does not justify the law keeper is without faith:

Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith,

Mat 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Through faith in Jesus Christ, the doers of the law exceed the righteousness of the legalists without faith. The righteousness of keeping the law is not exceeded by not keeping the law with faith alone...

Not all keepers of the law are justified with God, being without faith. But no transgressor of God's law is ever justified;

1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Psa 37:38
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Faith alone without works is dead. Faith alone without keeping the law is unjustified.

 

[CS1]

And this is the limited one-sided argument of faith alone justification, that is against any works justifying a man.

Only two options are made: either justification by faith alone without works, Or salvation by works alone.

The one option consistently excluded is that of Scripture: Salvation by faith with works, and justification by works of faith.

James{2:22}
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The saving faith, not being alone without works, which is dead. And the justified works, not being alone without faith, which are also dead:

Heb {6:1}
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Paul preaches against justification by works of the law without faith, and James preaches against justification by faith without works, both being alone and dead to God.




And once again here, the limited misuse of legalism, as though keeping the law is evil. Which is only possible if the law is evil:

1Ti 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Jas 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Legalism that does not justify the law keeper is without faith:

Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith,

Mat 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Through faith in Jesus Christ, the doers of the law exceed the righteousness of the legalists without faith. The righteousness of keeping the law is not exceeded by not keeping the law with faith alone...

Not all keepers of the law are justified with God, being without faith. But no transgressor of God's law is ever justified;

1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Psa 37:38
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Faith alone without works is dead. Faith alone without keeping the law is unjustified.

I disagree:

"Only two options are made: either justification by faith alone without works, Or salvation by works alone."

Save by Grace through faith. and I would like to know what isa work no one has been able to tell me .

It seems some what to force the two position only as id it must be one or the other. What about both ?