Was Mary Sinless?

[Genez]

" Who knoweth the SPIRIT OF MAN that goeth upward, and the SPIRIT OF THE BEAST that goeth downward to the earth." Ecc. 3:21. It seems that the Bible attributes to man AND beasts a spirit. Explain THAT away Nezzie. P.S. I guess the beasts are saved since the only way you get a spirit is through salvation, according to you guys. What you posted is that man and animals have a soul. I posted, from scripture, that man and animals have spirits. BTW, what are your sources? I got the 5591, it's the same one I used, but I put what Strong's has verbatim, I don't know WHAT you have. But give me your psuchikos source, to see if these things be true, the first one wasn't. You'll go to any length try to be right, won't you Nezzie? You should be ashamed.

Go here....

It goes beyond simply Strongs.
Look under this section:

HELPS Word-studies.

 

[sawdust]

" Who knoweth the SPIRIT OF MAN that goeth upward, and the SPIRIT OF THE BEAST that goeth downward to the earth." Ecc. 3:21. It seems that the Bible attributes to man AND beasts a spirit. Explain THAT away Nezzie.

Why don't you explain, if both these spirits are from God, why one is going down to the earth and not returning to Him.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Do you think, seeing as the writer is confident that the human spirit returns to God but is not sure where the spirit of man and beast goes, that maybe, just maybe the verse is using spirit in the sense of life or breath and is not referencing the human spirit born of God in Ecc.3:21?

 

[sawdust]

Go here....

It goes beyond simply Strongs.
Look under this section:

HELPS Word-studies.

Where's the link or are you saying search HELPS Word-studies?

 

[Genez]

Where's the link or are you saying search HELPS Word-studies?

https://biblehub.com/greek/5591.htm

 

[bytheblood]

Of course I pair hearing and understanding, who in their right mind wouldn't? If you are not understanding what you are hearing what good is it to you and how can you understand if you haven't heard? Knowing you are a sinner and in need of saving does not equate to believing in the Saviour. We are saved through faith, not knowledge but if we do not know, we cannot believe hence, Pauls' argument in Romans 10. A friend of mine knows she is a sinner and realises she needs saving but is not saved. Why? She doesn't believe the Gospel.

You have consistently failed to recognise that the word of God is not only spiritual but has a moral and ethical quality as well. We understand the latter which is why Christ can speak of earthly things that we understand but it is not until we believe and are born spiritually that we understand the spiritual dynamic of the word. I have explained to you several times how God draws us to Himself, that is Christ, even while we are dead in our sin. Christ spoke of the Spirit being in the world (note, not in believers but in the world) to convict of righteousness, sin and judgement. Jn.16:8 How can that happen while we are dead?

Once again you recognise that one with a "deadened spirit" (your terminology) still cannot understand the spiritual implications of the Gospel yet you have them believing it before they are born from above. You still have not explained how this can be.

And no, you are right, it is not good enough that you know something to be true, you must rely upon it for your existence to be true ie. believe. The Romans 1 type knew God exists but they rejected the knowledge in favour of their own preference. Rom.1:19-20 No-one is born from above simply because they know a Saviour exists, they must believe in the Gospel which is that Christ died for our sin and rose again on the third day. If you don't believe He rose from the dead, you are not believing the Gospel and are therefore not born again.

To be honest, I don't think you have put anywhere near enough thought into the practical details of how salvation occurs from it's beginning (ie. the drawing process) until the point one is actually born of the Spirit. You are like most Christians I met when I first became a Christian, full of platitudes and "right speak" but little understanding of the actual mecahnics of what makes it right.

You have a nice day. I'm not continuing with our conversation as it has repaeated itself enough.

grace and peace.

You have repeatedly twisted my words, maybe you are trying to impress someone, I don't know your twisted reasoning. I KNOW in whom I have believed and received. The mechanics of salvation (only you put it that way): I heard the Word either preached or testified to; my spirit (not my soul, to which it is foolishness) is drawn (" My Words unto you they are spirit and they are life" Jn 6:63); I realize that I am a sinner in need of a Savior; I received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. According to scripture, maybe not you, I have eternal life through Jesus Christ. " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom. 10:9-10. Check. This reminds me of you and your ilk " Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee( your ilk), and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus WITH HIMSELF, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican (me). I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." God hates pride.

 

[bytheblood]

The way I understand it... is that we have a choice. To follow the flesh or the Spirit.

The flesh is the carnal man, the feelings and emotions, the animal nature in us that has been corrupted by sin.

The flesh needs to be crucified, it needs to die.
The flesh can not do good because it is selfish, and lustful.

The Spirit is God's power in us.
It is the act of the will. A choice to follow the flesh or the Spirit.

The acts of the flesh and Spirit are ... Gal 5:19-23
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The Spiritual works are from God not our own works but we must crucify the flesh in order to follow the Spirit.

We live and walk in the Spirit When we choose to follow God rather then self.

I agree wholeheartedly, but this discussion is about a disagreement on whether man has a spirit at birth or only after he receives Jesus as Savior. I believe, no, I know, the former to be the case. We receive the Holy Spirit at salvation and He, after drawing us, works through our human spirits, not our souls, to which it is foolishness.

 

[bytheblood]

You can give verbatim and not know what you are talking about.
That's the problem.

You have an agenda to prove.
Everything is filtered through your bias.

You can present the term "team spirit" and show how it is used to make your point... if your bias is strong enough.

So I guess the scripture is not " strong enough " for you. If I give something verbatim I am giving something that is not my opinion, so you're really saying that what I gave doesn't know what IT'S talking about, in this case, Strong's Concordance. If I'm biased, I'm biased to the Word of God. THE BIBLE says that man AND beast have spirits. Deal with it. Argue with the Holy Spirit, who inspired man to put it in scripture.

 

[Magenta]

So I guess the scripture is not " strong enough " for you. If I give something verbatim I am giving something that is not my opinion, so you're really saying that what I gave doesn't know what IT'S talking about, in this case, Strong's Concordance. If I'm biased, I'm biased to the Word of God. THE BIBLE says that man AND beast have spirits. Deal with it. Argue with the Holy Spirit, who inspired man to put it in scripture.

Ecclesiastes 3 v 18-20 Man has no advantage over the animals.

 

[bytheblood]

I did not use any particular source.
I just explained what I have learned from qualified men of God over many years.

Just do an internet search.
You can spend hours finding out what some already have known.

Here is one example.
https://www.ministryvoice.com/psuchikos-in-greek/

And also....

Look how various translations render the term "natural man."
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 Corinthians 2:14

The translators, having varying degrees of skill and understanding, will simply state "the man having not the spirit."

Man will have no human spirit until the Holy Spirit gives birth to one in someone God has entered into salvation.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. ​

You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’​

​

John 3:6-7​

See?
Two births!
"Birth!"
Not, resurrecting a dead spirit.

Resurrection is not birth!

"Born again." = two births.

" Who knoweth the SPIRIT OF MAN that goeth upward, and the SPIRIT OF THE BEAST that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecc. 3:21 Man and beast have spirits but only man's spirit can be quickened. Sooo, beasts have spirits but man doesn't??? That's not what scripture says.

 

[Genez]

So I guess the scripture is not " strong enough " for you.

Scripture... when it is understood correctly?

It is just fine.

Your technique is just gaslighting.

 

[Genez]

" Who knoweth the SPIRIT OF MAN that goeth upward, and the SPIRIT OF THE BEAST that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecc. 3:21 Man and beast have spirits but only man's spirit can be quickened. Sooo, beasts have spirits but man doesn't??? That's not what scripture says.

You added to it. Stick to the passage.

 

[sawdust]

You have repeatedly twisted my words, maybe you are trying to impress someone, I don't know your twisted reasoning. I KNOW in whom I have believed and received. The mechanics of salvation (only you put it that way): I heard the Word either preached or testified to; my spirit (not my soul, to which it is foolishness) is drawn (" My Words unto you they are spirit and they are life" Jn 6:63); I realize that I am a sinner in need of a Savior; I received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. According to scripture, maybe not you, I have eternal life through Jesus Christ. " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom. 10:9-10. Check. This reminds me of you and your ilk " Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee( your ilk), and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus WITH HIMSELF, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican (me). I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." God hates pride.

I don't twist your words, you simply don't see the contradictions you keep uttering. You said the Gospel stirred your spirit, a spirit that was dead to spiritual matters. How can this deadened spirit respond to anything? I have repeatedly asked you to explain the mechanics of how that works but you have not responded. Instead all you do is repeat the same old platitudes.

It is not your spirit that God is speaking to, it is your soul for it is the function of the soul to think and respond (an act of the will) to the Gospel. What makes us human comes from our soul, it is the essence of who and what we are which is why the Bible refers to people as souls time and time again. We would not be human if that came from our spirit for it does not function (as you believe) and is nonexistent (as I believe). It is the spirit's role to discern the spiritual implication of God's word which feeds the soul so it we can be transformed in our thinking. Rom.12:2

The Gospel is not foolishness to the soul (that yearns for righteousness) for it has a moral and ethical value that can be understood which is why Christ can speak to us of earthly things (another thing you continue to ignore). What is not understood is the spiritual implication of the Gospel. This does not occur until after one believes and is born anew. Why do you think many report of how the scriptures "come alive" after they believe the Gospel, not before nor during the hearing, but after.

Me and my ilk is what? People who disagree with you and can show in detail why they disagree while all you can do is insult them and repeat the same old cliches?

 

[Genez]

You have repeatedly twisted my words, maybe you are trying to impress someone, I don't know your twisted reasoning.

Says the twister... as his words become untwisted before his lies... eyes.

Deception in spiritual warfare is very real...

 

[Genez]

You have repeatedly twisted my words, maybe you are trying to impress someone, I don't know your twisted reasoning. I KNOW in whom I have believed and received. The mechanics of salvation (only you put it that way): I heard the Word either preached or testified to; my spirit (not my soul, to which it is foolishness) is drawn (" My Words unto you they are spirit and they are life" Jn 6:63); I realize that I am a sinner in need of a Savior; I received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. According to scripture, maybe not you, I have eternal life through Jesus Christ. " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom. 10:9-10. Check. This reminds me of you and your ilk " Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee( your ilk), and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus WITH HIMSELF, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican (me). I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." God hates pride.

To say someone has a dead spirit?

Is like selling powdered water for someone going on a long hike to take with him.

Selling point?

It only weighs a fraction of what real water weighs, enabling you to walk better and longer.

When you need water?

Take out the powdered water and place in a cup.

Then?

Just add water! Viola! A living spirit!

Apparently...
You never really have been capable to think what you say through.
It's illogical!
Spirits can not be literally dead.
Nor can a soul be.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Born. Not resurrected from being dead!

Born?..... Do you even know what "born" means?

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born ​

of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not ​

be surprised at my saying, ​

​

‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7​

​

You were born the first time physically. Right?
Then, you needed to be born again spiritually.

To be born, God did not make some dead embryo in your mothers' womb to become alive.

To say we have a dead spirit?
Is just like saying that!

We have a reasonable God.

 

[Genez]

" Who knoweth the SPIRIT OF MAN that goeth upward, and the SPIRIT OF THE BEAST that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecc. 3:21 Man and beast have spirits but only man's spirit can be quickened. Sooo, beasts have spirits but man doesn't??? That's not what scripture says.

Hint....

What kind of man is that referring to?

The spirit of the unbeliever DOES NOT go up (heaven).
Only the believer's.

Wake and smell the rewards you are forfeiting.

 

[bytheblood]

You added to it. Stick to the passage.

Refute the scripture that says man and beasts have spirits. I have been saying that man has a spirit all along and have been called all types of names. Now I want you to respond to scripture as you have responded to me. C'mon Nezzie get together with Sawdie and go to your mysterious teachings and shoot scripture down.

 

[bytheblood]

I don't twist your words, you simply don't see the contradictions you keep uttering. You said the Gospel stirred your spirit, a spirit that was dead to spiritual matters. How can this deadened spirit respond to anything? I have repeatedly asked you to explain the mechanics of how that works but you have not responded. Instead all you do is repeat the same old platitudes.

It is not your spirit that God is speaking to, it is your soul for it is the function of the soul to think and respond (an act of the will) to the Gospel. What makes us human comes from our soul, it is the essence of who and what we are which is why the Bible refers to people as souls time and time again. We would not be human if that came from our spirit for it does not function (as you believe) and is nonexistent (as I believe). It is the spirit's role to discern the spiritual implication of God's word which feeds the soul so it we can be transformed in our thinking. Rom.12:2

The Gospel is not foolishness to the soul (that yearns for righteousness) for it has a moral and ethical value that can be understood which is why Christ can speak to us of earthly things (another thing you continue to ignore). What is not understood is the spiritual implication of the Gospel. This does not occur until after one believes and is born anew. Why do you think many report of how the scriptures "come alive" after they believe the Gospel, not before nor during the hearing, but after.

Me and my ilk is what? People who disagree with you and can show in detail why they disagree while all you can do is insult them and repeat the same old cliches?

Yeah Sawdie, God speaks to your soul which is enmity against God. To which part of man IS the Gospel foolishness to? The body can't discern if ANYTHING is foolishness or not, it can't think, it only sends signals. You say there is no spirit so you eliminate that and the only part of man left IS the soul. How does THAT work? I have proven to you, BY SCRIPTURE that not only man but beasts have a spirit. The body is world conscious(temperature, etc), the soul is self conscious and the spirit is God conscious. God draws and speaks to the part of us that are made in His image and after His likeness, our spirits.

 

[bytheblood]

Says the twister... as his words become untwisted before his lies... eyes.

Deception in spiritual warfare is very real...

Said the deceiver.

 

[bytheblood]

To say someone has a dead spirit?

Is like selling powdered water for someone going on a long hike to take with him.

Selling point?

It only weighs a fraction of what real water weighs, enabling you to walk better and longer.

When you need water?

Take out the powdered water and place in a cup.

Then?

Just add water! Viola! A living spirit!

Apparently...
You never really have been capable to think what you say through.
It's illogical!
Spirits can not be literally dead.
Nor can a soul be.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Born. Not resurrected from being dead!

Born?..... Do you even know what "born" means?

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born ​

of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not ​

be surprised at my saying, ​

​

‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7​

​

You were born the first time physically. Right?
Then, you needed to be born again spiritually.

To be born, God did not make some dead embryo in your mothers' womb to become alive.

To say we have a dead spirit?
Is just like saying that!

We have a reasonable God.

You persist in attributing to me that I said man has a dead spirit. You got any receipts for that?

 

[bytheblood]

Hint....

What kind of man is that referring to?

The spirit of the unbeliever DOES NOT go up (heaven).
Only the believer's.

Wake and smell the rewards you are forfeiting.

Now YOU'RE adding to scripture. Man is all mankind just as beasts are all the beasts. Let me ask you something, what is waiting under the altar in heaven? " And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9. The battle is over our souls not our spirits, they already belong to God. We decide( a function of the soul) in which direction our souls go, heaven or hell. My calling and election is sure.