Looking for information....

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,646
1,434
113
I'm wondering if anyone here has information about apopatic faith and apopatic biblical interpretation. I'm interested in learning more.
 
Apophatic theology is a mystical approach to the divine that attempts to describe God by what cannot be said of Him.

It posits that because the Divine is infinite and transcends human comprehension, any positive affirmation or human concept ultimately fails to capture His true essence.

Beyond human understanding: Proponents of this tradition argue that human language, logic, and concepts are fundamentally finite.

To call God "good" or "wise" confines an infinite being to limited, human definitions.

The method of subtraction: Instead of saying "God is just," an apophatic theologian might say "God contains no injustice" or simply acknowledge that God is entirely "other" than anything we can conceive.

Transcending Paradox: The ultimate goal is not to deny God's existence, but to strip away limited illusions.

By embracing "unknowing," the intellect softens and the seeker opens themselves to a direct, mystical experience of the divine.

While apophatic theology focuses on what God is not, cataphatic theology approaches God through positive statements—such as describing God as merciful, loving, or omnipotent.

The two are frequently used together as complementary paths to understanding the divine.

2 Timothy 2:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

The Bible will explain all about God without having to worry that we cannot understand something about Him.

The Bible tells us everything and there is no need to try to understand God by saying what He is not.

The Bible tells us everything about God so there is no mystery to understand.

They say it is mysticism and the truth only those that try to understand God without the Bible would say He is above comprehending by human intellect.

Or like the new age christianity that interprets the Bible according to mysticism, the occult, and evolution, where they believe human intellect cannot fully understand.

But the Bible tells us everything about God and the words are from God so no human intellect got in there.

God is not a mystery to understand for those who are in the truth.

And the words from God telling us all about Him with no lacking.

God is omnipresent which His Spirit does not end what are you trying to understand.

God is all knowing which He knows all there is to know so what are you trying to understand.

God is all powerful which there is nothing He cannot accomplish so what are you trying to understand.

God is good and there is no evil in Him so what are you trying to understand.

Sure there is knowledge we will not understand but it is not hidden that it is His attribute and would not help us in our relationship with God.

I do not worry what people say about anything for the Bible tells us all about God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Suze
Apophatic theology is a mystical approach to the divine that attempts to describe God by what cannot be said of Him.

It posits that because the Divine is infinite and transcends human comprehension, any positive affirmation or human concept ultimately fails to capture His true essence.

Beyond human understanding: Proponents of this tradition argue that human language, logic, and concepts are fundamentally finite.

To call God "good" or "wise" confines an infinite being to limited, human definitions.

The method of subtraction: Instead of saying "God is just," an apophatic theologian might say "God contains no injustice" or simply acknowledge that God is entirely "other" than anything we can conceive.

Transcending Paradox: The ultimate goal is not to deny God's existence, but to strip away limited illusions.

By embracing "unknowing," the intellect softens and the seeker opens themselves to a direct, mystical experience of the divine.

While apophatic theology focuses on what God is not, cataphatic theology approaches God through positive statements—such as describing God as merciful, loving, or omnipotent.

The two are frequently used together as complementary paths to understanding the divine.

2 Timothy 2:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

The Bible will explain all about God without having to worry that we cannot understand something about Him.

The Bible tells us everything and there is no need to try to understand God by saying what He is not.

The Bible tells us everything about God so there is no mystery to understand.

They say it is mysticism and the truth only those that try to understand God without the Bible would say He is above comprehending by human intellect.

Or like the new age christianity that interprets the Bible according to mysticism, the occult, and evolution, where they believe human intellect cannot fully understand.

But the Bible tells us everything about God and the words are from God so no human intellect got in there.

God is not a mystery to understand for those who are in the truth.

And the words from God telling us all about Him with no lacking.

God is omnipresent which His Spirit does not end what are you trying to understand.

God is all knowing which He knows all there is to know so what are you trying to understand.

God is all powerful which there is nothing He cannot accomplish so what are you trying to understand.

God is good and there is no evil in Him so what are you trying to understand.

Sure there is knowledge we will not understand but it is not hidden that it is His attribute and would not help us in our relationship with God.

I do not worry what people say about anything for the Bible tells us all about God.

Amen. Informative post; I had not heard of apophatic hermeneutics,
but it does seem to complement positive omni and moral descriptions of God.
 
Sounds like unedifying mysticism that might make a person feel spiritual and special, but does nothing for anyone else, ie, Christ's body, because mystical revelation cannot be taught to others. God made man to know and love him by believing what he says and loving others. Yes, God has a name that no one knows but he himself (Revelation 19:12), so why devote time or energy to the matter? Seek and do his will that is made known so that he can be pleased and glorified in the face of evil that is trying to steal his glory.

apophatic

adjective​

  1. Pertaining to knowledge of god obtained through negation rather than positive assertions.
  2. Of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').
 
Sounds like unedifying mysticism that might make a person feel spiritual and special, but does nothing for anyone else, ie, Christ's body, because mystical revelation cannot be taught to others. God made man to know and love him by believing what he says and loving others. Yes, God has a name that no one knows but he himself (Revelation 19:12), so why devote time or energy to the matter? Seek and do his will that is made known so that he can be pleased and glorified in the face of evil that is trying to steal his glory.

apophatic

adjective​

  1. Pertaining to knowledge of god obtained through negation rather than positive assertions.
  2. Of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').

The first definition is acceptable, but the second one is ridiculous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidLamb
I would urge the opposite. The Bible doesnt teach the omnis and imns. They are philosophical concepts, The Bible portrays a LIVING GOD with emotions and relationships with His people.

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob cannot be the god of platonism. God is said to be "slow to anger" which is impossible if God is outside of time, something the Bible never states. There is time in eternity, as Revelation says- just everlasting eternal time, but without time there can be no sequence of events.

@PaulThomson Tell em! Im tagging you in, havent seen you post in a while buddy where ya at?
 
  • Like
Reactions: GRACE_ambassador
I would urge the opposite. The Bible doesnt teach the omnis and imns. They are philosophical concepts, The Bible portrays a LIVING GOD with emotions and relationships with His people.

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob cannot be the god of platonism. God is said to be "slow to anger" which is impossible if God is outside of time, something the Bible never states. There is time in eternity, as Revelation says- just everlasting eternal time, but without time there can be no sequence of events.

@PaulThomson Tell em! Im tagging you in, havent seen you post in a while buddy where ya at?

Four terms are used to describe (but not explain and certainly not “box in”) the supernatural power of God: omnipotent (almighty), omniscient (all-knowing/ intelligent), omnipresent (everywhere), and omnitemporal (eternal). “Natural laws” actually are God’s ongoing first miracle (Rom. 1:20), and supernatural resurrection to judgment will be the final miracle (Heb. 9:27-28, 1Cor. 15:12-26).

If the NT is not too good to be true, then the Lord of the universe is neither dictatorial nor distant, but rather relates to humanity. Although we cannot comprehend the infinite God completely, hopefully we can do so sufficiently in order to achieve the type of relationship God desires to have with humanity (John 14:9-25). God desires communion.

1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Rom. 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Dan. 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible a la Kant), it must be maintained that God’s fore-knowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies in the river of salvation.

3. Omnipotence is connected with omnitemporality (in Rev. 1:18): “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rom. 1:20 refers to God’s “eternal power”, and Jer. 10:10&16 names God “the Lord Almighty”, who is true, living and eternal.

4. God’s infinite power implies omnipresence (per Psa. 139:7-8). God transcends spatial existence while being immanent in all points of space. (Other scriptural support for this view includes 1Kings 8:27, Isa. 66:1, Jer. 23:33, Acts 17:27-28 and Eph. 4:6.) God’s superiority over His creation must be viewed as a matter of degree or quantitatively in order to preserve the continuity between God and humanity that would be requisite for communication (like the need for a common language and culture cited in Part I). However, the Bible teaches that God also differs from creatures in kind or qualitatively, so that attaining equality with Deity is impossible (Isa. 55:9, Eph. 3:19). We can be like God (Gen. 3:3), and we can become one with the Son of God (John 17:21-23), but we cannot become God (cf. Humanism).

In addition to the omni-attributes related to power, Paul referred to God’s “nature” (in Rom. 1:20), which may be described in three ways: love, truth and justice. These often are called the moral attributes of God.

5. The Bible says that God is love and true love comes from God (1John 4:7-21, Rom. 5:5), so volitional creatures or souls can love only by reflecting, imitating or cooperating with the Creator’s love. Although the Bible speaks of God hating Esau (Mal. 1:3) and other evil people (Hos. 9:15), Jesus’ teaching of love for enemies (Matt. 5:44) reveals that God loves all creatures including Satan but hates their sinful choices (Ezek. 33:11). Several NT Scriptural pearls teach divine omnilove: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

It seems logical to assume that the all-loving God would create the best possible world or one in which the greatest percentage of persons may attain ultimate joy (1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Pet. 3:9). God may have created all possible kinds of worlds simultaneously: the world of dead matter, the world of living plants, the world of intelligent animals, and the world of morally accountable souls/humans. God’s world/way is best.

6. The Bible teaches that God is truth (John 1:17, 8:40, 15:26, 17:17), so all truth is from God and manifests God’s Spirit. If any atheists are truthseekers, then they are not far from the kingdom of God (Mark 12:34, 2Thes. 2:10, John 18:37), because Jesus promised that those who seek will find (Luke 11:9&13). Of course, if the truth is that there is no God or heaven, then what we believe is no more significant than the ideology of a rock or some other evolved collection of atoms (Eccl. 3:20)! Truth or God’s Word is represented in the Bible as light (John 1:1-9), which also signifies God’s glory (Luke 2:9).

7. The Bible also teaches that God is justness or righteousness (Rom. 3:25-26, 9:14, 2Thes. 1:6). This doctrine is called theodicy. It means that we should be careful lest our explanations of God’s will seem unloving or unfair. If a person cannot explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies (Josh. 6:17, 8:2), then possibly He did not do so. Another synonym for justness is goodness (Isa. 5:16).
 
The main lynchpin of the gospel is that the Word became flesh and made His habitation with man. To focus on the unknown of God seems like going backwards.

Paul addressed the Athenians regarding this point.

22Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
 
Four terms are used to describe (but not explain and certainly not “box in”) the supernatural power of God: omnipotent (almighty), omniscient (all-knowing/ intelligent), omnipresent (everywhere), and omnitemporal (eternal). “Natural laws” actually are God’s ongoing first miracle (Rom. 1:20), and supernatural resurrection to judgment will be the final miracle (Heb. 9:27-28, 1Cor. 15:12-26).

If the NT is not too good to be true, then the Lord of the universe is neither dictatorial nor distant, but rather relates to humanity. Although we cannot comprehend the infinite God completely, hopefully we can do so sufficiently in order to achieve the type of relationship God desires to have with humanity (John 14:9-25). God desires communion.

1. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2Tim. 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move. Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will. God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection (the last miracle) and judgment (per Heb. 9:27)–called His permissive will.

2. God’s power is equivalent to His omniscience. Jeremiah wrote that “God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom.” (Jer. 10:12) Many NT passages refer to God as the source of true wisdom (e.g., Acts 6:3, 1Cor. 1:25, Col. 2:2-3, Jam. 1:5). God’s infinitely superior knowledge is extolled in Rom. 11:33-34 (echoing Isa. 40:13-14) and Dan. 2:20-23.

Omniscience includes knowledge of people’s thoughts (Psa. 94:11, Matt. 12:25) and the foreknowledge of events (Acts 2:23, Rom. 8:29, 11:2, 1Pet. 1:2). Some people think that God even knows what a person will be/do before that person exists (Jer. 1:5). If this view is correct (which I find incomprehensible a la Kant), it must be maintained that God’s fore-knowledge does not predetermine a person’s spiritual choice regarding the satisfaction of God’s requirement for salvation or else moral responsibility would be abrogated. I find it simpler to think that God merely tweaks the river of history occasionally to keep if flowing in the direction He intends but allows the fish to swim as they wish. (Surely this universe is not a replay of a history that has already happened!) God allows eddies in the river of salvation.

3. Omnipotence is connected with omnitemporality (in Rev. 1:18): “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rom. 1:20 refers to God’s “eternal power”, and Jer. 10:10&16 names God “the Lord Almighty”, who is true, living and eternal.

4. God’s infinite power implies omnipresence (per Psa. 139:7-8). God transcends spatial existence while being immanent in all points of space. (Other scriptural support for this view includes 1Kings 8:27, Isa. 66:1, Jer. 23:33, Acts 17:27-28 and Eph. 4:6.) God’s superiority over His creation must be viewed as a matter of degree or quantitatively in order to preserve the continuity between God and humanity that would be requisite for communication (like the need for a common language and culture cited in Part I). However, the Bible teaches that God also differs from creatures in kind or qualitatively, so that attaining equality with Deity is impossible (Isa. 55:9, Eph. 3:19). We can be like God (Gen. 3:3), and we can become one with the Son of God (John 17:21-23), but we cannot become God (cf. Humanism).

In addition to the omni-attributes related to power, Paul referred to God’s “nature” (in Rom. 1:20), which may be described in three ways: love, truth and justice. These often are called the moral attributes of God.

5. The Bible says that God is love and true love comes from God (1John 4:7-21, Rom. 5:5), so volitional creatures or souls can love only by reflecting, imitating or cooperating with the Creator’s love. Although the Bible speaks of God hating Esau (Mal. 1:3) and other evil people (Hos. 9:15), Jesus’ teaching of love for enemies (Matt. 5:44) reveals that God loves all creatures including Satan but hates their sinful choices (Ezek. 33:11). Several NT Scriptural pearls teach divine omnilove: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

It seems logical to assume that the all-loving God would create the best possible world or one in which the greatest percentage of persons may attain ultimate joy (1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Pet. 3:9). God may have created all possible kinds of worlds simultaneously: the world of dead matter, the world of living plants, the world of intelligent animals, and the world of morally accountable souls/humans. God’s world/way is best.

6. The Bible teaches that God is truth (John 1:17, 8:40, 15:26, 17:17), so all truth is from God and manifests God’s Spirit. If any atheists are truthseekers, then they are not far from the kingdom of God (Mark 12:34, 2Thes. 2:10, John 18:37), because Jesus promised that those who seek will find (Luke 11:9&13). Of course, if the truth is that there is no God or heaven, then what we believe is no more significant than the ideology of a rock or some other evolved collection of atoms (Eccl. 3:20)! Truth or God’s Word is represented in the Bible as light (John 1:1-9), which also signifies God’s glory (Luke 2:9).

7. The Bible also teaches that God is justness or righteousness (Rom. 3:25-26, 9:14, 2Thes. 1:6). This doctrine is called theodicy. It means that we should be careful lest our explanations of God’s will seem unloving or unfair. If a person cannot explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies (Josh. 6:17, 8:2), then possibly He did not do so. Another synonym for justness is goodness (Isa. 5:16).
One can describe God as omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnitemporal, but the idol or the true God is in the detail. How is one going to define those descriptors in a way that fits how scripture actually speaks of God? I agree with those adjectives regarding God, but I do not define them according to the way they are understood in Platonism.
 
Sounds like unedifying mysticism that might make a person feel spiritual and special, but does nothing for anyone else, ie, Christ's body, because mystical revelation cannot be taught to others. God made man to know and love him by believing what he says and loving others. Yes, God has a name that no one knows but he himself (Revelation 19:12), so why devote time or energy to the matter? Seek and do his will that is made known so that he can be pleased and glorified in the face of evil that is trying to steal his glory.

apophatic

adjective​

  1. Pertaining to knowledge of god obtained through negation rather than positive assertions.
  2. Of or relating to the belief that God can be known to humans only in terms of what He is not (such as `God is unknowable').
I can’t see how a meaningful relationship is possible with someone where I can know only what is not true about them. If I try to apply that principle to anyone else I have a relationship with someone close, such as my wife, or someone remote, such as Harrison Ford, it makes no sense. Certainly there are many things I do not know about my wife, but without knowing some things where is the relationship?

Jesus is the brightness of God’s glory and the express image of His person. If we have seen Jesus we have seen the triune God. We can certainly know what God is like to some degree by observing what our Lord was and is like.