Dysfunctional Faith-Alone justification

[Proximus]

Also, here is another dysfunction of faith alone justification apart from works:

If man has nothing meritorious to justify us with God, including meritorious works, then it must also exclude faith, else men do have something meritorious to justify us with God: Meritorious faith. Or, faith is not meritorious with God at all, and cannot save nor justify with God.

At least, we do know one faith, that certainly is not meritorious with God nor man: faith alone that is dead to God and man, being without works.

Jas 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And so, why is it that some Christians (not Scripture) preaches a faith without meritorious works, that saves, but is the one known unmeritorious faith in Scripture?

In any case, to avoid the dysfuntion of having nothing meritorious to justify us with God, and yet having meritorious faith to justify us: either faith and works of faith are meritorious to justify with God, or neither is meritorious without the merit of God, and cannot save nor justify any man.

Indeed, there is no merit for both and charity, and yet both are necessary.
Let me quote some explanations applicable to this point (though I already commented on this issue in another message today).

150. XI. MERIT.
They who do good that they may merit, do not do good from the love of good, but from the love of reward, for he who wills to merit, wills to be rewarded; they who do so, regard and place their delight in the reward, and not in good; wherefore they are not spiritual, but natural.

151. To do good, which is good, must be from the love of good, thus for the sake of good. They who are in that love are not willing to hear of merit, for they love to do, and perceive satisfaction therein, and, on the other hand, they are sorrowful if it be believed that what they do is for the sake of anything of themselves. This is almost like those who do good to their friends for the sake of friendship; to a brother for the sake of brotherhood, to wife and children for the sake of wife and children, to the country for the sake of the country, thus from friendship and love. They who think well, also say and insist, that they do not do good for the sake of themselves, but for the sake of others.

152. They who do good for the sake of reward, do not do good from the Lord, but from themselves, for they regard themselves in the first place, because they regard their own good; and the good of the neighbor, which is the good of fellow-citizens, of human society, of the country, and of the church, they regard no otherwise than as a means to an end. Hence it is, that the good of the love of self and of the world lies concealed in the good of merit, and that good is from man and not from the Lord, and all good which is from man is not good; yea, so far as self and the world lies concealed in it, it is evil.

153. Genuine charity and genuine faith is without any merit, for good itself is the delight of charity, and truth itself is the delight of faith; wherefore they who are in that charity and faith know what good not meritorious is, but not they who are not in charity and faith.

154. That good is not to be done for the sake of reward, the Lord Himself teaches in Luke:

If ye love those who love you, what grace have you? for sinners do the same; rather love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing; then shall your reward be great, and ye shall be the sons of the Most High (6:32-35).

That man cannot do good that is good from himself, the Lord also teaches in John:

A man cannot take anything unless it be given Him from heaven (3:27).

And in another place:

Jesus said, I am the vine, ye are the branches: as the branch cannot bear fruit from itself, unless it shall abide in the vine, so neither can ye unless ye shall abide in Me: He who abideth in Me and I in him, he beareth much fruit, for except from Me ye cannot do anything (15:4-8).

155. Because all good and truth are from the Lord, and nothing of them from man, and because good from man is not good, it follows that merit belongs to no man, but to the Lord alone. The merit of the Lord consists in this, that from his own power He has saved the human race, and also, that He saves those who do good from Him. Hence it is that in the Word, he is called "just" to whom the merit and justice of the Lord are ascribed, and he is called "unjust" to whom are ascribed his own justice and the merit of self.

156. The delight itself, which is in the love of doing good without an end to reward, is a reward which remains to eternity, for heaven and eternal happiness are insinuated into that good by the Lord.

157. To think and believe that they who do good will come into heaven, and also that good is to be done in order that they may come into heaven, is not to regard reward as an end, thus neither is it to place merit in works; for even they who do good from the Lord think and believe so, but they who thus think, believe and do, and are not in the love of good for the sake of good, have regard to reward as an end, and place merit in works." ("New Jerusalem and its Heavenly Doctrine", Em. Swedenborg)

 

[2Christ]

It is contradictory to live under the Old Covenant when God has replaced it with the New Covenant. It is also an insult to God's grace. I'll say it again: New Covenant, New Law, New Life. You have no clue as to what that means. Why is that?

Could you define the new covenant new laws? So there are still laws to be applied?

 

[Proximus]

Well I think you're agreeing with me the Mosaic law doesn't apply to Gentiles never did that is the argument I will always stand on

I understand it didn't go away but that's pretty simple we have it in our Bible it'll probably never go away and it probably never get changed since we probably will never find any other ancient documents that show us that there's something different about it

There's nothing in the Bible that indicates that me as a gentile believer should ever be required to do anything in Mosaic law unless of course it was reiterated in the New Testament such as nine of the 10 commandments the Sabbath was excluded because our Sabbath rest is in Jesus whenever we feel like taking it

Our Sabbath is indeed in the Lord, but considering that the Lord is requiring both faith and charity, involving the commandments, so our Sabbath cannot be saparated from the faith and charity (life according to the commandments), for without Him or faith or charity, everything is destroyed.

With regard to the ceremonial law for the Judaic Church, this was also became of no use at all after the Lord's coming, the essentials having been gathered in the Holy Supper and Baptism.

 

[Genez]

It takes faith to believe we are not saved by grace through faith!

 

[Proximus]

It takes faith to believe we are not saved by grace through faith!

But we are indeed saved by the lord's Divine Mercy through the living faith of His own with us, and considering that this faith is not dead, or demonic, so it is never given without life charity, thus shunning evis as sins, and so a man is not saved by the faith of His own, but by the faith and charity that he was as if of himself, or as if by his own powers, acquiring for himself, and while he was, in doing so, looking to the Lord God Jesus Christ, the Lord was making those faith and charity living, and thus due to this the salvation of man was becoming possible, for he was spiritually regenerated.

 

[Genez]

But we are indeed saved by the lord's Divine Mercy through the living faith of His own with us, and considering that this faith is not dead, or demonic, so it is never given without life charity, thus shunning evis as sins, and so a man is not saved by the faith of His own, but by the faith and charity that he was as if of himself, or as if by his own powers, acquiring for himself, and while he was, in doing so, looking to the Lord God Jesus Christ, the Lord was making those faith and charity living, and thus due to this the salvation of man was becoming possible, for he was spiritually regenerated.

(keep it simple as it really is, please)

Romans 10:17

So FAITH comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

.​

 

[Proximus]

(keep it simple as it really is, please)

Romans 10:17

So FAITH comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

.​

Hundreds of people listened to the Lord, heard His word, and yet did not become believers, did not have any faith.

So, one has to understand the Word of God not like a simple word, but as the Divine Word, that needs true understanding. What what is faith without genuine understanding, but some persuasion the truthfullness of which is not to a person.

 

[Roger316]

True. No one need to agree there is a gospel of justification by faith alone without works, in order to know it makes no practical sense. Else who can be justified living their faith with works?

I'm sorry, I thought you didn't want to talk about it anymore. I want to respect your wishes, but it seems like you changed your mind. Did you?

I don't want to address your post directly until you answer, but I think you might allow me to clarify something. The Title of this thread is "The Dysfunctional Faith-Alone Justification." I entered the conversation thinking that we were going to discuss the Reformer's doctrine associated with the phrase "Faith-Alone." Apparently, there is a modern definition that is not familiar to me.

Obviously, I misunderstood, and for that I apologize.

I can see now that your post is engaging a more modern conversation and using some terminology in ways that are new to me. That’s completely fine — I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it. I just wanted to explain why I was a bit confused at first.

OSAS justification by faith alone without works, excludes any works from justifying the man.

That is the dysfunctional gospel being challenged.

Thank you for the clarification — I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it. Honestly, I wasn’t aware that there’s a movement within the OSAS camp that treats ‘faith alone’ in such a strict way that any works are excluded from justifying the person. I didn’t realize that was an actual position people were promoting. Your explanation helped me understand the context much better.

No man can be saved by his faith alone, without having any of his works justifying him...Else all his works are evil, and he has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, or he's dead without any works at all.

You raise an interesting question about evil, but I will leave that for another time.

 

[legion]

Why does it make sense to you to think that someone following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded with send them to hell instead of rebelling against what God has commanded? God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so do you really think that the reason that Jesus came to call sinners to repentance was in order to send them to hell?

Not only do you not understand what the Bible is saying you can't understand what I'm saying you're hopeless good luck with your faith quit annoying me

 

[Genez]

Hundreds of people listened to the Lord, heard His word, and yet did not become believers, did not have any faith.

So, one has to understand the Word of God not like a simple word, but as the Divine Word, that needs true understanding. What what is faith without genuine understanding, but some persuasion the truthfullness of which is not to a person.

"Hearing" means grasping the meaning of what was said and accepting it.
Like when someone tells someone something they needed to know.
Followed with a response..."I hear you."

Like a parent giving a child a stern warning about a certain behavior to be stopped.
Then asking...... "Do you hear me?!!!"

Our faith is what we learned of the Word and believed it is true.

 

[Soyeong]

It is contradictory to live under the Old Covenant when God has replaced it with the New Covenant. It is also an insult to God's grace. I'll say it again: New Covenant, New Law, New Life. You have no clue as to what that means. Why is that?

I've said nothing in favor of living under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), so if you want nothing to do with obeying the Torah, then you also want nothing to do with being under the New Covenant. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah, so it is not an insult to God's grace to teach obedience to it, but just the opposite. You can reject the truth of Jeremiah 31:33 if you want, but I believe in the truth of that verse.

 

[Soyeong]

Your trying to mix the old covenant and the new covenant.

I said nothing about mixing covenants, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. While all of God's covenants are distinct, they are all made with the same God with the same eternal character traits, so everything that God's covenants teach us about how to know God through embodying His character traits is eternal and cumulatively valid. Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody?

Jesus the Lord introduced the new covenant and the new commandment.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

You cannot pour old wine (the law) into new wine skins (the Spirit), Soyeong.

Jesus was asked a question about why his disciples were not fasting and answered their question by giving a couple of parables about different kinds of disciples, which has nothing to do with how you are misapplying it.

So what did God pour (write) into our hearts?

Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit
who was given to us.

That is agape love not self love as the law states.

The Torah is God's instructions for how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

 

[Gideon300]

Could you define the new covenant new laws? So there are still laws to be applied?

No, the new Law is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ our king. It is not defined by works. it is defined by fruit. The problem with the 10 commandments is not that they are too hard, they are too easy. According to SDA and Sabbatarians, all you have to ensure is outward observance, and of course, that means going to church on Saturday, and you will be fine.

Lord Jesus said that God looks at the heart, not outward behaviour. Christ is the only One who has ever pleased God perfectly. He lives in the believer to be all that we should be but cannot be. Outward obedience does not impress God one bit. It impresses the legalists, that's for sure.

Law is what we must do to try and please God. Grace is Lord Jesus doing in and through us what is pleasing to God. People can't even agree on what constitutes work. So how are they supposed to obey the Sabbath commandment? According to Jews, turning on a light switch is work and so forbidden. No wonder they remain in the dark.

I've been born again for 54 years. God has never told me that I must observe the Sabbath. He's told me a lot of other things, including that my own righteousness is filthy rags. Those who want to live according to the Law of Moses seek to establish their own righteousness.

Paul strongly rejected the requirement that believers be circumcised. Circumcision was required of God's people long before the law was given. Yet Sabbatarians cling to the notion that Sabbath observance is still mandatory. That is contrary to God's word. Don't be fooled. Worship God anywhere and any time that you choose. Sunday is the "Lord's Day" according to the first believers. That's because Lord Jesus rose again on that day. The Sabbath was made for man. I'll meet with Jesus every day and with the brethren on the Lord's day. And the early church met together every day, in each other's homes. Now that would be something special.

 

[Gideon300]

I said nothing about mixing covenants, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. While all of God's covenants are distinct, they are all made with the same God with the same eternal character traits, so everything that God's covenants teach us about how to know God through embodying His character traits is eternal and cumulatively valid. Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody?


Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).


Jesus was asked a question about why his disciples were not fasting and answered their question by giving a couple of parables about different kinds of disciples, which has nothing to do with how you are misapplying it.


The Torah is God's instructions for how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

You put grace under law. And you are too blind to see it.

 

[Gideon300]

I've said nothing in favor of living under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), so if you want nothing to do with obeying the Torah, then you also want nothing to do with being under the New Covenant. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Torah, so it is not an insult to God's grace to teach obedience to it, but just the opposite. You can reject the truth of Jeremiah 31:33 if you want, but I believe in the truth of that verse.

You are utterly confused. You also refuse to accept the truth. Nothing I can do about that. For others who might be leaning towards accepting your unbiblical view, this is God's word in the NT

"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God." Galatians 2:19. What laws apply to dead people?

But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6.

"All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Galatians 3: 1-12

When you follow the law, you are not living by faith. That means that you are not pleasing God.

"Before this faith came, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:23-25

The law does not save us and neither does it make us righteous. "Whoever keeps the whole law, but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Galatians 5:18

"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:14

 

[2Christ]

No, the new Law is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ our king. It is not defined by works. it is defined by fruit. The problem with the 10 commandments is not that they are too hard, they are too easy. According to SDA and Sabbatarians, all you have to ensure is outward observance, and of course, that means going to church on Saturday, and you will be fine.

Lord Jesus said that God looks at the heart, not outward behaviour. Christ is the only One who has ever pleased God perfectly. He lives in the believer to be all that we should be but cannot be. Outward obedience does not impress God one bit. It impresses the legalists, that's for sure.

Law is what we must do to try and please God. Grace is Lord Jesus doing in and through us what is pleasing to God. People can't even agree on what constitutes work. So how are they supposed to obey the Sabbath commandment? According to Jews, turning on a light switch is work and so forbidden. No wonder they remain in the dark.

I've been born again for 54 years. God has never told me that I must observe the Sabbath. He's told me a lot of other things, including that my own righteousness is filthy rags. Those who want to live according to the Law of Moses seek to establish their own righteousness.

Paul strongly rejected the requirement that believers be circumcised. Circumcision was required of God's people long before the law was given. Yet Sabbatarians cling to the notion that Sabbath observance is still mandatory. That is contrary to God's word. Don't be fooled. Worship God anywhere and any time that you choose. Sunday is the "Lord's Day" according to the first believers. That's because Lord Jesus rose again on that day. The Sabbath was made for man. I'll meet with Jesus every day and with the brethren on the Lord's day. And the early church met together every day, in each other's homes. Now that would be something special.

i was not talking about the sabbath you are, why bring up the SDA I am not one of them. your definition of the laws under the new covenant is vague at best, then you go on about circumcision, we all know it is not a requirement for gentiles.

About the problem you have with the ten commandments think of this;

When Jesus said that to enter into life to keep the commandments, he did speak of the ten commandments, we know because he named some of them to make a point. So why are you trying to redefine laws that were clearly spoken about by God and that we must keep them to enter into life? to keep them in our heart out of Love and not by following the letter of the law like the pharisees? who change this? Jesus who spent a good part of his ministry to teach the ten commandments? assuredly Not. Paul? he said the commandments were good and just, same thing. the other apostles? they were sent by Jesus to go to all the world to preach everything he said and did, not them also.

please do not reply to call me a Legalist Jesus said to follow him, I am a simple Follower of Jesus because He is everything to me and I love him dearly and I listen to him.

 

[Genez]

i was not talking about the sabbath you are, why bring up the SDA I am not one of them. your definition of the laws under the new covenant is vague at best, then you go on about circumcision, we all know it is not a requirement for gentiles.

About the problem you have with the ten commandments think of this;

When Jesus said that to enter into life to keep the commandments, he did speak of the ten commandments, we know because he named some of them to make a point. So why are you trying to redefine laws that were clearly spoken about by God and that we must keep them to enter into life? to keep them in our heart out of Love and not by following the letter of the law like the pharisees? who change this? Jesus who spent a good part of his ministry to teach the ten commandments? assuredly Not. Paul? he said the commandments were good and just, same thing. the other apostles? they were sent by Jesus to go to all the world to preach everything he said and did, not them also.

please do not reply to call me a Legalist Jesus said to follow him, I am a simple Follower of Jesus because He is everything to me and I love him dearly and I listen to him.

What do you do with Jesus telling Peter to stop eating according to the Law?

 

[Gideon300]

i was not talking about the sabbath you are, why bring up the SDA I am not one of them. your definition of the laws under the new covenant is vague at best, then you go on about circumcision, we all know it is not a requirement for gentiles.

About the problem you have with the ten commandments think of this;

When Jesus said that to enter into life to keep the commandments, he did speak of the ten commandments, we know because he named some of them to make a point. So why are you trying to redefine laws that were clearly spoken about by God and that we must keep them to enter into life? to keep them in our heart out of Love and not by following the letter of the law like the pharisees? who change this? Jesus who spent a good part of his ministry to teach the ten commandments? assuredly Not. Paul? he said the commandments were good and just, same thing. the other apostles? they were sent by Jesus to go to all the world to preach everything he said and did, not them also.

please do not reply to call me a Legalist Jesus said to follow him, I am a simple Follower of Jesus because He is everything to me and I love him dearly and I listen to him.

The last thing that Lord Jesus did was to introduce the new covenant. It is the covenant of grace, not of law. There is no grace and no mercy in the law. There is no in between. Either you are living according to the law or you are living by grace.

Lord Jesus shed His blood in order to secure the new covenant for us. That's how much it cost Him. I know not so many understand this, but it is an insult to think that obeying the law is enough to please God.

The New Covenant introduces a new Law. It is the law of the Spirit of life. It is not a law in the sense of written instructions. It is the principle of being led by the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit. All the Law of Moses did was condemn sinners. It was intended to lead us to Christ.

People seem to imagine that people like me are trying to get out of being righteous. Far from it. I realised that there is nothing good in me a very long time ago. I realised that I did not have to kill my enemy in order not to offend God. I just had to hate him. That was as good as murdering him. I have never made an idol to worship, but the word of God tells me that greed is idolatry.

The law is outward observance. God requires an inner conformity to His righteousness that I could never achieve of myself. Being led by the Spirit is far more demanding than ticking boxes that tell me how well I've conformed to the Law. This was especially true when I was a new Christian. It seemed that everything I wanted in life was against God's will for me. Yet according to the law I was doing all that was required.

The law was put in charge of us to lead us to Christ. If we are born again, the Law has done its job.

 

[Inquisitor]

i was not talking about the sabbath you are, why bring up the SDA I am not one of them. your definition of the laws under the new covenant is vague at best, then you go on about circumcision, we all know it is not a requirement for gentiles.

About the problem you have with the ten commandments think of this;

When Jesus said that to enter into life to keep the commandments, he did speak of the ten commandments, we know because he named some of them to make a point. So why are you trying to redefine laws that were clearly spoken about by God and that we must keep them to enter into life? to keep them in our heart out of Love and not by following the letter of the law like the pharisees? who change this? Jesus who spent a good part of his ministry to teach the ten commandments? assuredly Not. Paul? he said the commandments were good and just, same thing. the other apostles? they were sent by Jesus to go to all the world to preach everything he said and did, not them also.

please do not reply to call me a Legalist Jesus said to follow him, I am a simple Follower of Jesus because He is everything to me and I love him dearly and I listen to him.

I believe that Jesus was speaking to the Jews about Exodus 20, as they were in covenant to obey that law.

Gentiles were never in that covenant to obey the law (Exodus 24).

Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law
and the temple service and the promises.

There can be no doubt that only Israel was given the law and the covenants because Paul just said so.

You must understand that Jesus was only sent to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

Jesus said He was only sent to the Jews.

The gospel was not given to the Gentiles until years later and the Gentiles were grafted into Jesus.

Your argument that Jesus was directly speaking to you is incorrect.

You do not understand the context of the gospels and the traditional church never understood that context.

 

[Inquisitor]

I said nothing about mixing covenants, but rather I have been speaking about how to live under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. While all of God's covenants are distinct, they are all made with the same God with the same eternal character traits, so everything that God's covenants teach us about how to know God through embodying His character traits is eternal and cumulatively valid. Do you believe in the existence of the God who has the character traits that the Torah was given in order to teach us how to embody?


Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).


Jesus was asked a question about why his disciples were not fasting and answered their question by giving a couple of parables about different kinds of disciples, which has nothing to do with how you are misapplying it.


The Torah is God's instructions for how to embody His character traits and His character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Does God write His law on our hearts or do we memorize the Torah?