1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge

[EmethAlethia]

I don't have a problem with being wrong. With 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups, odds are I am. But this is what I see:

1.) God desires every human being to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti. 2:3-4

2.) Because of God’s desires, 1Ti. 2:3-4 God “seeks” ALL men. Rom. 1:18-21

3.) And because of God’s 1st seeking, every human who ever lived, starts their life out “knowing” God. Rom. 1:21

4.) “Therefore”, no man “not” coming to “saving faith” in Him has any excuse at all. Rom. 1:20

5.) It is men’s “choices” to suppress, reject and exchange the truth of God for a lie, He builds into every man who ever lived, choosing not to retain the knowledge of God any longer … that results in God’s consequences. See: “For this reason”, “Therefore”, “because” … in Rom. 1:18-32

6.) God will allow all those “headed for hell” to judge whether He was “Faithful” to get them everything they needed to come to saving faith in Him. Rom. 3:3-4 In every case, God will be fully justified in His actions, and every person believing differently will be proven to be a liar.

7.) Despite God’s desires 1Ti. 2:3-4, very “Few” men “Choose” to “receive a love of the truth so as to be saved” 2Th. 2:10-12, and thus to “eventually” receive “Faith in the truth” 2Th. 2:13 and be sealed “in Him” with the Holy Spirit. 2Th. 2:13, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, Eph. 1:13-14 God doesn’t always get what He desires. He states His desires, seeks all men and then lets men choose. Mat. 23:37, Luk. 13:34

8.) God’s “Second Seeking” of a “Few” men only applies to those who “choose” to receive a love of the truth. Joh. 4:23-24, 2Th. 2:10-13 God no longer “seeks” those who choose to reject “the love of the truth” that is offered to all men. Instead, all those rejecting what is offered receive a deluding influence, from God Himself, to believe lies are truth and the truth to be lies. 2Th. 2:11 All who reject the love of the truth will “Perish” 2Th. 2:10 and can never even see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 Unless their choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 changes, and thus their ongoing “Fruits” pertaining to having received a love of the truth also change, there is no possible way for any of those making the wrong choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 to be saved.

9.) Only these, who made the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10, 13, and thus have the correct ongoing “Fruits” Mat. 7:15-20, 12:33, (And the rest of Mat. 7, as well), Mat. 13:23, Luk. 3:9, 6:43-44, 8:15, Joh. 15:8, … are the ones whom God “foreknew”, Rom. 8:29 Only these, whom He “Foreknew”, are “Predestined” to eventually hear Eph. 1:13-14 the correct gospel. As the rest cannot even see or hear it. 2Th. 2:10, 2Co. 4:3-4

10.) Only these will … eventually, arrive at saving “faith” in the “Truth” and will be sealed “In Him”, “In the Beloved”, “In Christ” with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13-14, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, 2Th. 2:13

a.) Only these, whom He “Knew beforehand” Rom. 8:29, would make the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10-13. These are the ones are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, … eventually. Rom. 8:29

b.) Only these are predestined to be called. Joh. 4:23-24, Mat. 15:13

c.) Only these will make it to the gate leading to life, … eventually. Mat. 7:14

d.) Noone not on the correct “path” can ever even see the correct gate, let alone enter through it. 2Co. 4:3-4

e.) Only these are “predestined” to be justified. Rom. 8:30

f.) And only these will He glorify. Rom. 8:30 All that make the wrong “choice” are, because of their choice, “predestined” to die/perish, unless their “Choice”, in 2Th. 2:10-12, changes first, as they cannot even see, let alone believe, the true gospel until they do. 2Co. 4:3-4, Mat. 15:14, Mat. 11:25-30, Mat. 11:25-30.

11.) But what about Rom. 9? Romans 9 is a small part of a discussion that lasts for 3 chapters: all the way through chapter 11. The context is, How can God set aside the 1st born nation of Israel and work with the Gentiles instead. That's the context. And, in Rom. 9:1-8 That's what all the "Illustrations" "Illustrate". Nothing more. Nothing less.

12.) Gen. 6:5 “Every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” This verse applies only to this specific period of time, and this “specific” event: “The Great Flood”. And even “in this specific time” and “during this specific event” in history, there is still “One” exception to Gen. 6:5: Gen. 7:1. So, no, you cannot take a scripture based on a single situation, at a specific point in time and apply it across the board to everyone for all periods of time, especially when there was already one exception to that rule even then.

13.) Rom. 3:10-18 “There is none righteous... no one seeks for God.” Which is why God does a general seeking of all men which is enough that they could have chosen to have received a love of the truth resulting in God’s continued seeking of them until they ended up with saving faith.

14.) If a single man, throughout all history, can prove God didn’t give him everything he needed to make the correct choice, and be saved, God is proven unfaithful, and God is the one proven to be a liar. Rom. 3:3-4

15.) Eph. 2:1-3 “Dead in your trespasses and sins... by nature children of wrath.” I agree. All people on this planet “were”, and are still, for the most part, children of wrath. And without “Both” of God’s “Seekings” discussed just prior, it will remain that way.

16.) 1Co. 2:14 “The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God... he cannot understand them.” Absolutely true. Unless you made the correct choice to love truth, 2Th. 2:10-13 you are guaranteed to believe lies. 2Th. 2:11

17.) “No man can “choose” God apart from divine intervention.” I agree. “Man’s will is in bondage to sin” Scripture says all those making the wrong choice in 2Th. 2:10-13, which is almost everyone, is in this state. Yes. Apart from “Both” of God’s “Seekings”: The first all men receive Rom. 1:18-22, the second Joh. 4:23-24, Mat. 15:13, only those who have made the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 receive, every man, woman and child above the age of reason is in complete bondage to sin. Getting away from God’s deluding influence to believe lies as truth and truth to be lies 2Th. 2:11 requires making the correct “choice”, or you are locked into your beliefs, and God is done “seeking” you.

18.) Joh. 6:37, 44 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me... No one can come unless the Father draws him.” Absolutely true. God’s first seeking of all men, if it didn’t occur, would result in every man “having an excuse” for not believing the truth. But they don’t have one because He does seek them and builds into every man everything He needed to choose to love truth. Rom. 1:18-22. If the correct “Choice” to love truth is made 2Th. 2:10-13, God’s 2nd ongoing seeking Joh. 4:23-24 of those who have chosen to love truth, occurs. It’s all God’s work. We agree. All “Faith”, saving and otherwise, 2Th. 2:11 comes from God.

...

 

[Magenta]

The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

 

[Magenta]

All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27

 

[GWH]

I don't have a problem with being wrong. With 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups, odds are I am. But this is what I see:

1.) God desires every human being to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti. 2:3-4

2.) Because of God’s desires, 1Ti. 2:3-4 God “seeks” ALL men. Rom. 1:18-21

3.) And because of God’s 1st seeking, every human who ever lived, starts their life out “knowing” God. Rom. 1:21

4.) “Therefore”, no man “not” coming to “saving faith” in Him has any excuse at all. Rom. 1:20

5.) It is men’s “choices” to suppress, reject and exchange the truth of God for a lie, He builds into every man who ever lived, choosing not to retain the knowledge of God any longer … that results in God’s consequences. See: “For this reason”, “Therefore”, “because” … in Rom. 1:18-32

6.) God will allow all those “headed for hell” to judge whether He was “Faithful” to get them everything they needed to come to saving faith in Him. Rom. 3:3-4 In every case, God will be fully justified in His actions, and every person believing differently will be proven to be a liar.

7.) Despite God’s desires 1Ti. 2:3-4, very “Few” men “Choose” to “receive a love of the truth so as to be saved” 2Th. 2:10-12, and thus to “eventually” receive “Faith in the truth” 2Th. 2:13 and be sealed “in Him” with the Holy Spirit. 2Th. 2:13, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, Eph. 1:13-14 God doesn’t always get what He desires. He states His desires, seeks all men and then lets men choose. Mat. 23:37, Luk. 13:34

8.) God’s “Second Seeking” of a “Few” men only applies to those who “choose” to receive a love of the truth. Joh. 4:23-24, 2Th. 2:10-13 God no longer “seeks” those who choose to reject “the love of the truth” that is offered to all men. Instead, all those rejecting what is offered receive a deluding influence, from God Himself, to believe lies are truth and the truth to be lies. 2Th. 2:11 All who reject the love of the truth will “Perish” 2Th. 2:10 and can never even see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 Unless their choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 changes, and thus their ongoing “Fruits” pertaining to having received a love of the truth also change, there is no possible way for any of those making the wrong choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 to be saved.

9.) Only these, who made the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10, 13, and thus have the correct ongoing “Fruits” Mat. 7:15-20, 12:33, (And the rest of Mat. 7, as well), Mat. 13:23, Luk. 3:9, 6:43-44, 8:15, Joh. 15:8, … are the ones whom God “foreknew”, Rom. 8:29 Only these, whom He “Foreknew”, are “Predestined” to eventually hear Eph. 1:13-14 the correct gospel. As the rest cannot even see or hear it. 2Th. 2:10, 2Co. 4:3-4

10.) Only these will … eventually, arrive at saving “faith” in the “Truth” and will be sealed “In Him”, “In the Beloved”, “In Christ” with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13-14, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, 2Th. 2:13

a.) Only these, whom He “Knew beforehand” Rom. 8:29, would make the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10-13. These are the ones are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, … eventually. Rom. 8:29

b.) Only these are predestined to be called. Joh. 4:23-24, Mat. 15:13

c.) Only these will make it to the gate leading to life, … eventually. Mat. 7:14

d.) Noone not on the correct “path” can ever even see the correct gate, let alone enter through it. 2Co. 4:3-4

e.) Only these are “predestined” to be justified. Rom. 8:30

f.) And only these will He glorify. Rom. 8:30 All that make the wrong “choice” are, because of their choice, “predestined” to die/perish, unless their “Choice”, in 2Th. 2:10-12, changes first, as they cannot even see, let alone believe, the true gospel until they do. 2Co. 4:3-4, Mat. 15:14, Mat. 11:25-30, Mat. 11:25-30.

11.) But what about Rom. 9? Romans 9 is a small part of a discussion that lasts for 3 chapters: all the way through chapter 11. The context is, How can God set aside the 1st born nation of Israel and work with the Gentiles instead. That's the context. And, in Rom. 9:1-8 That's what all the "Illustrations" "Illustrate". Nothing more. Nothing less.

12.) Gen. 6:5 “Every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” This verse applies only to this specific period of time, and this “specific” event: “The Great Flood”. And even “in this specific time” and “during this specific event” in history, there is still “One” exception to Gen. 6:5: Gen. 7:1. So, no, you cannot take a scripture based on a single situation, at a specific point in time and apply it across the board to everyone for all periods of time, especially when there was already one exception to that rule even then.

13.) Rom. 3:10-18 “There is none righteous... no one seeks for God.” Which is why God does a general seeking of all men which is enough that they could have chosen to have received a love of the truth resulting in God’s continued seeking of them until they ended up with saving faith.

14.) If a single man, throughout all history, can prove God didn’t give him everything he needed to make the correct choice, and be saved, God is proven unfaithful, and God is the one proven to be a liar. Rom. 3:3-4

15.) Eph. 2:1-3 “Dead in your trespasses and sins... by nature children of wrath.” I agree. All people on this planet “were”, and are still, for the most part, children of wrath. And without “Both” of God’s “Seekings” discussed just prior, it will remain that way.

16.) 1Co. 2:14 “The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God... he cannot understand them.” Absolutely true. Unless you made the correct choice to love truth, 2Th. 2:10-13 you are guaranteed to believe lies. 2Th. 2:11

17.) “No man can “choose” God apart from divine intervention.” I agree. “Man’s will is in bondage to sin” Scripture says all those making the wrong choice in 2Th. 2:10-13, which is almost everyone, is in this state. Yes. Apart from “Both” of God’s “Seekings”: The first all men receive Rom. 1:18-22, the second Joh. 4:23-24, Mat. 15:13, only those who have made the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 receive, every man, woman and child above the age of reason is in complete bondage to sin. Getting away from God’s deluding influence to believe lies as truth and truth to be lies 2Th. 2:11 requires making the correct “choice”, or you are locked into your beliefs, and God is done “seeking” you.

18.) Joh. 6:37, 44 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me... No one can come unless the Father draws him.” Absolutely true. God’s first seeking of all men, if it didn’t occur, would result in every man “having an excuse” for not believing the truth. But they don’t have one because He does seek them and builds into every man everything He needed to choose to love truth. Rom. 1:18-22. If the correct “Choice” to love truth is made 2Th. 2:10-13, God’s 2nd ongoing seeking Joh. 4:23-24 of those who have chosen to love truth, occurs. It’s all God’s work. We agree. All “Faith”, saving and otherwise, 2Th. 2:11 comes from God.

...

Beginning your hermeneutic with 1Tim. 2:3-4 indicates the odds of you being correct are quite high.

Two others you might want to add from which to triangulate or use to guide an interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.

 

[birdie]

I don't have a problem with being wrong. With 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different Christian belief groups, odds are I am. But this is what I see:

1.) God desires every human being to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti. 2:3-4

2.) Because of God’s desires, 1Ti. 2:3-4 God “seeks” ALL men. Rom. 1:18-21

3.) And because of God’s 1st seeking, every human who ever lived, starts their life out “knowing” God. Rom. 1:21

4.) “Therefore”, no man “not” coming to “saving faith” in Him has any excuse at all. Rom. 1:20

5.) It is men’s “choices” to suppress, reject and exchange the truth of God for a lie, He builds into every man who ever lived, choosing not to retain the knowledge of God any longer … that results in God’s consequences. See: “For this reason”, “Therefore”, “because” … in Rom. 1:18-32

6.) God will allow all those “headed for hell” to judge whether He was “Faithful” to get them everything they needed to come to saving faith in Him. Rom. 3:3-4 In every case, God will be fully justified in His actions, and every person believing differently will be proven to be a liar.

7.) Despite God’s desires 1Ti. 2:3-4, very “Few” men “Choose” to “receive a love of the truth so as to be saved” 2Th. 2:10-12, and thus to “eventually” receive “Faith in the truth” 2Th. 2:13 and be sealed “in Him” with the Holy Spirit. 2Th. 2:13, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, Eph. 1:13-14 God doesn’t always get what He desires. He states His desires, seeks all men and then lets men choose. Mat. 23:37, Luk. 13:34

8.) God’s “Second Seeking” of a “Few” men only applies to those who “choose” to receive a love of the truth. Joh. 4:23-24, 2Th. 2:10-13 God no longer “seeks” those who choose to reject “the love of the truth” that is offered to all men. Instead, all those rejecting what is offered receive a deluding influence, from God Himself, to believe lies are truth and the truth to be lies. 2Th. 2:11 All who reject the love of the truth will “Perish” 2Th. 2:10 and can never even see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 Unless their choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 changes, and thus their ongoing “Fruits” pertaining to having received a love of the truth also change, there is no possible way for any of those making the wrong choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 to be saved.

9.) Only these, who made the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10, 13, and thus have the correct ongoing “Fruits” Mat. 7:15-20, 12:33, (And the rest of Mat. 7, as well), Mat. 13:23, Luk. 3:9, 6:43-44, 8:15, Joh. 15:8, … are the ones whom God “foreknew”, Rom. 8:29 Only these, whom He “Foreknew”, are “Predestined” to eventually hear Eph. 1:13-14 the correct gospel. As the rest cannot even see or hear it. 2Th. 2:10, 2Co. 4:3-4

10.) Only these will … eventually, arrive at saving “faith” in the “Truth” and will be sealed “In Him”, “In the Beloved”, “In Christ” with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13-14, Mat. 7:7-12/Luk. 11:9-13, 2Th. 2:13

a.) Only these, whom He “Knew beforehand” Rom. 8:29, would make the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10-13. These are the ones are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, … eventually. Rom. 8:29

b.) Only these are predestined to be called. Joh. 4:23-24, Mat. 15:13

c.) Only these will make it to the gate leading to life, … eventually. Mat. 7:14

d.) Noone not on the correct “path” can ever even see the correct gate, let alone enter through it. 2Co. 4:3-4

e.) Only these are “predestined” to be justified. Rom. 8:30

f.) And only these will He glorify. Rom. 8:30 All that make the wrong “choice” are, because of their choice, “predestined” to die/perish, unless their “Choice”, in 2Th. 2:10-12, changes first, as they cannot even see, let alone believe, the true gospel until they do. 2Co. 4:3-4, Mat. 15:14, Mat. 11:25-30, Mat. 11:25-30.

11.) But what about Rom. 9? Romans 9 is a small part of a discussion that lasts for 3 chapters: all the way through chapter 11. The context is, How can God set aside the 1st born nation of Israel and work with the Gentiles instead. That's the context. And, in Rom. 9:1-8 That's what all the "Illustrations" "Illustrate". Nothing more. Nothing less.

12.) Gen. 6:5 “Every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” This verse applies only to this specific period of time, and this “specific” event: “The Great Flood”. And even “in this specific time” and “during this specific event” in history, there is still “One” exception to Gen. 6:5: Gen. 7:1. So, no, you cannot take a scripture based on a single situation, at a specific point in time and apply it across the board to everyone for all periods of time, especially when there was already one exception to that rule even then.

13.) Rom. 3:10-18 “There is none righteous... no one seeks for God.” Which is why God does a general seeking of all men which is enough that they could have chosen to have received a love of the truth resulting in God’s continued seeking of them until they ended up with saving faith.

14.) If a single man, throughout all history, can prove God didn’t give him everything he needed to make the correct choice, and be saved, God is proven unfaithful, and God is the one proven to be a liar. Rom. 3:3-4

15.) Eph. 2:1-3 “Dead in your trespasses and sins... by nature children of wrath.” I agree. All people on this planet “were”, and are still, for the most part, children of wrath. And without “Both” of God’s “Seekings” discussed just prior, it will remain that way.

16.) 1Co. 2:14 “The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God... he cannot understand them.” Absolutely true. Unless you made the correct choice to love truth, 2Th. 2:10-13 you are guaranteed to believe lies. 2Th. 2:11

17.) “No man can “choose” God apart from divine intervention.” I agree. “Man’s will is in bondage to sin” Scripture says all those making the wrong choice in 2Th. 2:10-13, which is almost everyone, is in this state. Yes. Apart from “Both” of God’s “Seekings”: The first all men receive Rom. 1:18-22, the second Joh. 4:23-24, Mat. 15:13, only those who have made the correct choice in 2Th. 2:10-13 receive, every man, woman and child above the age of reason is in complete bondage to sin. Getting away from God’s deluding influence to believe lies as truth and truth to be lies 2Th. 2:11 requires making the correct “choice”, or you are locked into your beliefs, and God is done “seeking” you.

18.) Joh. 6:37, 44 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me... No one can come unless the Father draws him.” Absolutely true. God’s first seeking of all men, if it didn’t occur, would result in every man “having an excuse” for not believing the truth. But they don’t have one because He does seek them and builds into every man everything He needed to choose to love truth. Rom. 1:18-22. If the correct “Choice” to love truth is made 2Th. 2:10-13, God’s 2nd ongoing seeking Joh. 4:23-24 of those who have chosen to love truth, occurs. It’s all God’s work. We agree. All “Faith”, saving and otherwise, 2Th. 2:11 comes from God.

...

Thanks EmethAlethia for your look at predestination.

You began with a scripture: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". It seems you are interpreting this as something along the lines of God wants all people to be saved. That would be excellent, but I am not personally sure that this is the correct interpretation here for this scripture. I think the phrase "all men" is probably talking about those who will be the elect, those who will be saved. So, it is possible that the scripture is saying something along the lines of 'who will have all of God's sheep, so to speak, to be saved'. I agree, as you have noted, that no one comes to God except God takes the initiative to draw them to him. So, those who are saved come to him as God moves them, as he elects them.
Of course, we are to preach the gospel to everyone, so that those who will receive him will do so and believe. Further, it is up to God who he chooses to believe. It is not our business, but his. We are to share the gospel with all of humanity, as much as possible.

When we read in Romans 11, "And so all Israel shall be saved:" we should understand that 'all Israel' means all persons who are saved. It is probably the same meaning in the phrase "all men" you mention from 1 Timothy. In speaking of "all Israel", scripture continues in Romans 11: "As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." In other words, there shall come out of heaven Jesus the deliverer, who will turn ungodliness away from Jacob. Jacob is another phrase used to describe all of God's sheep, so to speak - all who are to be saved.

 

[p_rehbein]

1.) God desires every human being to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 1Ti. 2:3-4

2.) Because of God’s desires, 1Ti. 2:3-4 God “seeks” ALL men. Rom. 1:18-21

3.) And because of God’s 1st seeking, every human who ever lived, starts their life out “knowing” God. Rom. 1:21

4.) “Therefore”, no man “not” coming to “saving faith” in Him has any excuse at all. Rom. 1:20

One disagreement: Starting ones life out is when one is born. One does not know God at birth, nor can one be receive eternal salvation shortly after birth. There is an age of accountability. That age is normally believed to be 12, as this was the age Jesus was when he first taught.

 

[GWH]

Thanks EmethAlethia for your look at predestination.

You began with a scripture: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". It seems you are interpreting this as something along the lines of God wants all people to be saved. That would be excellent, but I am not personally sure that this is the correct interpretation here for this scripture. I think the phrase "all men" is probably talking about those who will be the elect, those who will be saved. So, it is possible that the scripture is saying something along the lines of 'who will have all of God's sheep, so to speak, to be saved'. I agree, as you have noted, that no one comes to God except God takes the initiative to draw them to him. So, those who are saved come to him as God moves them, as he elects them.
Of course, we are to preach the gospel to everyone, so that those who will receive him will do so and believe. Further, it is up to God who he chooses to believe. It is not our business, but his. We are to share the gospel with all of humanity, as much as possible.

When we read in Romans 11, "And so all Israel shall be saved:" we should understand that 'all Israel' means all persons who are saved. It is probably the same meaning in the phrase "all men" you mention from 1 Timothy. In speaking of "all Israel", scripture continues in Romans 11: "As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." In other words, there shall come out of heaven Jesus the deliverer, who will turn ungodliness away from Jacob. Jacob is another phrase used to describe all of God's sheep, so to speak - all who are to be saved.

Yes, if God desires all to be saved, and that desire is excellent, why do you object?
Seems nutso!

If God were going to elect anyone unconditionally, He would elect everyone,
unless He hates some and shows favoritism to the others, as TULIP teaches.

 

[birdie]

Yes, if God desires all to be saved, and that desire is excellent, why do you object?
Seems nutso!

If God were going to elect anyone unconditionally, He would elect everyone,
unless He hates some and shows favoritism to the others, as TULIP teaches.

Thanks GWH. You are starting with the premise that God desires all to be saved. Do you have a scripture for that? I am saying that the scripture from 1 Timothy may actually be saying that God desires all of his sheep to be saved. I would love to have everyone saved, but I am not in the place of God to say. It is up to God.

 

[EmethAlethia]

One disagreement: Starting ones life out is when one is born. One does not know God at birth, nor can one be receive eternal salvation shortly after birth. There is an age of accountability. That age is normally believed to be 12, as this was the age Jesus was when he first taught.

Well, in Rom. 1:18-32, God does not specify the exact time period. Since He doesn't specifically say "when" in every person's life this knowledge of God is imparted, I really do hate to "create" words and put them in God's mouth. We may get this "knowledge" years before we are held accountable for what we do with it. Does that make sense?

 

[EmethAlethia]

Thanks EmethAlethia for your look at predestination.

You began with a scripture: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". It seems you are interpreting this as something along the lines of God wants all people to be saved. That would be excellent, but I am not personally sure that this is the correct interpretation here for this scripture. I think the phrase "all men" is probably talking about those who will be the elect, those who will be saved. So, it is possible that the scripture is saying something along the lines of 'who will have all of God's sheep, so to speak, to be saved'. I agree, as you have noted, that no one comes to God except God takes the initiative to draw them to him. So, those who are saved come to him as God moves them, as he elects them.
Of course, we are to preach the gospel to everyone, so that those who will receive him will do so and believe. Further, it is up to God who he chooses to believe. It is not our business, but his. We are to share the gospel with all of humanity, as much as possible.

When we read in Romans 11, "And so all Israel shall be saved:" we should understand that 'all Israel' means all persons who are saved. It is probably the same meaning in the phrase "all men" you mention from 1 Timothy. In speaking of "all Israel", scripture continues in Romans 11: "As it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." In other words, there shall come out of heaven Jesus the deliverer, who will turn ungodliness away from Jacob. Jacob is another phrase used to describe all of God's sheep, so to speak - all who are to be saved.

Why would you "want to believe" such horrible things about God", especially when taking the straightforward meaning is what makes the most sense?

Based on a Calvinistic perspective wouldn't God stating this: "God desires almost no men to be saved and almost no one to come to a knowledge of the truth."? After all, no one who dies as a non-Christian will be saved. (More than 2/3 of the world population.) And, Jesus says that the vast masses, the "Many" Mat. 7:13, 22-23, who believe He is their Lord, God and Savior, who possess the exact same signs the true Christians of the 1st century possessed, who believe they are Christian, are headed for "destruction" and will not see "life" Mat. 7:14.

Based on Calvinism, and God's "end results" or "Fruits" and based on God's will never being thwarted (Which contradicts Mat. 23:37 and Luk. 13:34), would God's "desires" not be more accurately stated as, "I desire almost everyone to be tortured in agony in the flames of hell, for all eternity and for none of those people to ever have an opportunity to see truth"? I'm just asking. Is that not the truth from your perspective? Loving God? For 1/10th of a percent, maybe? There is another option, and we don't need to ignore the clear meaning and "create" a meaning that is exactly opposite of the words used.

Also, God says he is going to let's every person who dies without saving faith judge whether or not he was faithful to get them everything they needed to come to saving faith. God says, in every case He will be found justified and every man will be found to be a liar. Rom. 3:3-4 If your beliefs are correct, every "Man" is fully justified as they could never come to saving faith at all. God says all those who end up lost and in hell have absolutely no excuse. Rom. 1:20 If God never gives them an opportunity, every man has "every excuse" in the world.

There is a way to interpret every verse pertaining to this issue, without changing any meaning at all, and without seeing a God who simply desires to roast almost everyone in eternal agony and torment in the flames of hell simply because He wills it. But ... we have to be willing to consider those things.

By the way, if anything seems to inaccurately represent scripture, or the Calvinistic perspective, please point those things out. I am usually wrong on many things.

 

[birdie]

Why would you "want to believe" such horrible things about God", especially when taking the straightforward meaning is what makes the most sense?

Based on a Calvinistic perspective wouldn't God stating this: "God desires almost no men to be saved and almost no one to come to a knowledge of the truth."? After all, no one who dies as a non-Christian will be saved. (More than 2/3 of the world population.) And, Jesus says that the vast masses, the "Many" Mat. 7:13, 22-23, who believe He is their Lord, God and Savior, who possess the exact same signs the true Christians of the 1st century possessed, who believe they are Christian, are headed for "destruction" and will not see "life" Mat. 7:14.

Based on Calvinism, and God's "end results" or "Fruits" and based on God's will never being thwarted (Which contradicts Mat. 23:37 and Luk. 13:34), would God's "desires" not be more accurately stated as, "I desire almost everyone to be tortured in agony in the flames of hell, for all eternity and for none of those people to ever have an opportunity to see truth"? I'm just asking. Is that not the truth from your perspective? Loving God? For 1/10th of a percent, maybe? There is another option, and we don't need to ignore the clear meaning and "create" a meaning that is exactly opposite of the words used.

Also, God says he is going to let's every person who dies without saving faith judge whether or not he was faithful to get them everything they needed to come to saving faith. God says, in every case He will be found justified and every man will be found to be a liar. Rom. 3:3-4 If your beliefs are correct, every "Man" is fully justified as they could never come to saving faith at all. God says all those who end up lost and in hell have absolutely no excuse. Rom. 1:20 If God never gives them an opportunity, every man has "every excuse" in the world.

There is a way to interpret every verse pertaining to this issue, without changing any meaning at all, and without seeing a God who simply desires to roast almost everyone in eternal agony and torment in the flames of hell simply because He wills it. But ... we have to be willing to consider those things.

By the way, if anything seems to inaccurately represent scripture, or the Calvinistic perspective, please point those things out. I am usually wrong on many things.

Thanks Emethalethia. You are imagining that I am imagining things that I have not imagined. You are making up words that are way far from my perspective. Where do you get these ideas? I am only trying to accurately interpret scripture. To me, the scripture from 1 Timothy seems to be saying that God wants all persons who are his to be saved. Are there other scriptures that contradict that notion that you wish to mention?

 

[GWH]

Thanks GWH. You are starting with the premise that God desires all to be saved. Do you have a scripture for that? I am saying that the scripture from 1 Timothy may actually be saying that God desires all of his sheep to be saved. I would love to have everyone saved, but I am not in the place of God to say. It is up to God.

Well, assuming the translators did a sufficiently accurate job, as an English teacher I am confident that
1Tim. 2:3-4 means what it says. Why wouldn't it?
Do you believe God does NOT love everyone and want them to be saved?!
Is your love greater than God's or is it because of Rom. 5:5/because it reflects divine love?
--which reminds me of this song in the spiritual genre that I hope birdies will chirp along to:

https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/spirit-of-the-lord

 

[EmethAlethia]

Yes, if God desires all to be saved, and that desire is excellent, why do you object?
Seems nutso!

If God were going to elect anyone unconditionally, He would elect everyone,
unless He hates some and shows favoritism to the others, as TULIP teaches.

Great point. If God "Chooses" to save only a fragment of humanity, and "Chooses" to roast everyone else in agony for eternity in the flames of hell, and everyone deserves hell, and no one deserves heaven, it would seem to be the epitome of having "Unjust weights". Yes, you all deserve this, and no one deserves that, but I'm going to "select out" 1/10th of all the population to bless for eternity while I torture for eternity everyone else. If I am wrong, let me know how.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Thanks Emethalethia. You are imagining that I am imagining things that I have not imagined. You are making up words that are way far from my perspective. Where do you get these ideas? I am only trying to accurately interpret scripture. To me, the scripture from 1 Timothy seems to be saying that God wants all persons who are his to be saved. Are there other scriptures that contradict that notion that you wish to mention?

Which part of my statements are contrary to the ramifications of your beliefs?

 

[birdie]

Which part of my statements are contrary to the ramifications of your beliefs?

Thanks EmethAlethia. The scripture says that God is love. I do not understand your insistence that my position means God wants to torture and roast people. That is not my thoughts at all, nor do I believe it follows from the idea that God wants his sheep to be saved.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Thanks EmethAlethia. The scripture says that God is love. I do not understand your insistence that my position means God wants to torture and roast people. That is not my thoughts at all, nor do I believe it follows from the idea that God wants his sheep to be saved.

All non-Christians, and almost all people who believe they are Christians (The "Many" Mat. 7:13, 22-23) are headed for destruction and will not see life. They are all going to spend eternity in agony in hell because God didn't choose them. It's 100% His choice as to who to save, right. Only the "elect" does God desire to save and to come to a knowledge of the truth. That's what you said, right? God is the only one with a choice, and that's what your beliefs say God desires or he'd "Choose" differently, right?

God only wants to save a 1otyh of a percent or less, right? If He wanted to save the rest, could He not do so? He is sovereign, is He not? If He doesn't want to save them from what all the lost are going to suffer for eternity, what does your God want for most people ... assuming Calvinism is correct, which I believe requires ignoring the meaning, context, ... and leaving out a ton of passages that apply to the topic to come to that conclusion.

I agree. My conclusions are absolutely heinous, but that's if Calvinism is correct. I believe these conclusions are blasphemy ... again, if Calvinism is correct. It may not be the conclusions you want to draw based on your beliefs, but God only "wants" to save His sheep. What does your God "want" to do with everyone "else"? You tell me. If He wanted something different for almost everyone, would He not put almost all, or all of them, in the "elect", "sheep" group? Does He not have the power? Is the blood of Christ only limited to a "Few" out of the vast masses of Christianity? If your belief is true is this not where we have to go? Explain how we can assume anything else based on your beliefs and interpretations. I'd be more than happy to change my views on all of it. Not by adding meaning not in scripture, or leaving scriptures or their meaning out, nor by distorting any meaning in an attempt to force scriptures to align with my beliefs, but by accurately dissecting every passage on the topic God gives us.

So, show me where my conclusions, based on what you state your beliefs are, are wrong.

 

[birdie]

Thanks E for the response. I can see you are very worked up about these conclusions you have. Those are your conclusions and ideas. They are not mine. I believe that God is love. God gives those who are his own the gospel to share, which they share with everyone. They share it with those who will be saved and those who will not. Those who believe and are washed free from sin will be saved. Those who reject the gospel will not. Is there some part of this you don't like? It is simply the way I see things.

 

[GWH]

Thanks E for the response. I can see you are very worked up about these conclusions you have. Those are your conclusions and ideas. They are not mine. I believe that God is love. God gives those who are his own the gospel to share, which they share with everyone. They share it with those who will be saved and those who will not. Those who believe and are washed free from sin will be saved. Those who reject the gospel will not. Is there some part of this you don't like? It is simply the way I see things.

Because you choose to be blind regarding the heretical claim by tulipists that God hates those He does not force to be His own,
which is unfair and contradicts clear teaching of Scripture as well as your own love: "I would love to have everyone saved", but
instead of glorifying God for giving you His love/HS, you project hatred onto Him. We urge you to repent.

 

[tablet123]

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God wants all people to be saved because He is good and not evil.

He will not condemn people by not giving them a chance to choose to be saved.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

If God chooses in the beginning who will be saved and not saved without their choice then why is He calling people then not choosing them.

If He is calling them then He wants them to be saved but some fall short for eternal life so they are not chosen.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

So then we have a choice in our salvation and that is because God's kingdom is true love.

You can program your computer to say I love you but does it really love you.

And you can program your computer to say I hate you and will you get mad and smash it.

Why would those who reject the truth be punished if they have no choice but God is good so we have a choice.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life concerning the truth but they have to make the choice to walk through the door of truth for His kingdom is true love but they would of not got to the point to make that choice unless God intervened in their life.

Some people do not make it to that decision point and some reject that decision but continue on as if nothing is wrong.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not everybody makes that decision at the door of truth for they will not let go of the flesh and no good thing dwells in the flesh and those in the flesh cannot please God.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1Co 13:5 thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.

Walking through the door of truth means we hate sin the works of the flesh, and do not want sin, and allow the Spirit to lead us to be Christlike which not everybody does that.

If we do sin we repent and not want the sin and allow the Spirit to lead us.

We have to accept the truth that we have to abstain from sin led by the Spirit instead of believing we cannot abstain from sin so we are alright if we sin which then we fall short for we are not moving on from the flesh to the spiritual.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Predestination means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation from the foundation of the world and this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved.

 

[GWH]

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God wants all people to be saved because He is good and not evil.

He will not condemn people by not giving them a chance to choose to be saved.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

If God chooses in the beginning who will be saved and not saved without their choice then why is He calling people then not choosing them.

If He is calling them then He wants them to be saved but some fall short for eternal life so they are not chosen.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

So then we have a choice in our salvation and that is because God's kingdom is true love.

You can program your computer to say I love you but does it really love you.

And you can program your computer to say I hate you and will you get mad and smash it.

Why would those who reject the truth be punished if they have no choice but God is good so we have a choice.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life concerning the truth but they have to make the choice to walk through the door of truth for His kingdom is true love but they would of not got to the point to make that choice unless God intervened in their life.

Some people do not make it to that decision point and some reject that decision but continue on as if nothing is wrong.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not everybody makes that decision at the door of truth for they will not let go of the flesh and no good thing dwells in the flesh and those in the flesh cannot please God.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1Co 13:5 thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.

Walking through the door of truth means we hate sin the works of the flesh, and do not want sin, and allow the Spirit to lead us to be Christlike which not everybody does that.

If we do sin we repent and not want the sin and allow the Spirit to lead us.

We have to accept the truth that we have to abstain from sin led by the Spirit instead of believing we cannot abstain from sin so we are alright if we sin which then we fall short for we are not moving on from the flesh to the spiritual.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Predestination means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation from the foundation of the world and this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved.

Amen, fellow MFWer & TSer!