Jesus' Methodology for verifying beliefs, responses, doctrines, ... are "Incorrect"

[EmethAlethia]

Just an observation:

1.) 70 out of 82 times Jesus states erroneous beliefs, responses, actions, teachings, … can be3 proven to be wrong simply by logic and reason: Considering all the ramifications of a belief, or belief set, and seeing if every one of them makes complete sense. No scriptures are used. No scriptural situations are brought up. Simply, "Think this through boys. Your beliefs, actions, responses, ... make no sense whatsoever."

2.) In 12 out of 82 places, while the use of logic and reason remains, Jesus also adds a bible passage or situation His opponents missed or didn't want to consider because it messed with what they "wanted to believe" "as" truth.

This would mean, "If" we want truth, and not to merely hold fast to what we "want to believe" "as" truth, ...

A.) Gather every passage that "Might" apply to the topic at hand. This includes:

a.) All the data you use to hold fast to your beliefs, and to refute all opposing beliefs.

b.) All the data those with opposing beliefs use to hold fast to their beliefs as truth and reject yours as lies.

c.) All the data no belief group wants to look at, because it can't be used to prove any of their beliefs to be true, and might prove them all to be lies, but that "might" apply.

d.) "Accurately dissecting" the meaning of each in the context of the arguments/discussion in which it is found, holding to a consistent meaning for words, and root words, … You know “Accurately dissecting” all the word of God says and means without trying to force everything to fit what we “want to believe” “as” truth. 2Ti. 2:15, 2Pe. 3:16

e.) Once we have gathered all the possible data that "might" apply, and have gotten to the exact meaning of the passage in the context of the discussion, arguments, points made, ... throughout the entire discussion the relevant passages are a part of, we combine just the meaning present, with no meaning added, subtracted or distorted to try and force it to align with any belief, think all the ramifications of each of your beliefs through, checking to see if every ramification of each of them makes complete logical, reasonable, rational sense. Mat. 15:6-9

f.) Then ask others if you missed any data that “might” apply and if all your conclusions make complete logical, reasonable rational sense.

g.) If every ramification of each of your beliefs doesn’t make complete logical, reasonable, rational sense, even if there are no passages or biblical situations that might apply, at all, your belief is wrong.

h.) If this is the case, go back, restudy, find the passages you may have missed, seek out where you added meaning, subtracted meaning, or distorted it tin an attempt to hold fast to your belief, figure out how you missed the truth, and fix your beliefs.

But don't take my word for it. Study it through for yourself:

But don’t take my word for it. Study it through for yourself. L = just logic and reason L + S = Logic and Reason with Scriptural evidence. The numbers, in parenthesis, separated by a coma are the running totals. Let me know how I did. 1.) Mat 9:1-7 (L) (1,0) (1 Logic and Reason alone, zero scripture references so far) 2.) Mat. 9:10-13 (vs. 12 L), (vs. 13 L + S) (2,1), 3.) Mat. 9:14-17 (vs. 15 L), (vs. 16 L), (vs. 17 L) (5,1), 4.) Mat. 11:15-20 (vs. 15 L), (vss. 16-17 L), (vs. 18-19 L) (8,1), 5.) Mat. 12:1-8 (vss. 3-4 L+S), (vss. 5-6 L+S), (vss. 7-8 L+S) (8,4), 6.) Mat. 12:10-14 (L) (9,4), 7.) Mat 12:22-32 (vs. 25 L), (vs. 26 L), (vs. 28 L), (vs. 29 L), (vs. 30 L), (vss. 31-32 L) (16,4), 8.) Mat. 12:33-37 (vs. 33 L), (vss. 34-35 L), (vss. 36-37 L), (19,4), 9.) Mat. 15:2-9 (vs. 3-7 L+S), (vss. 8-9 L+S) (19,6), 10.) Mat. 21:23-27 (L) (20,6), 11.) Mat. 22:16-21 (L) (21,6), 12.) Mat. 22:41-46 (L+S) (21,7), 13.) Mar 2:2-12 (L) (22,7), 14.) Mar. 2:16-17 (L) (23,7), 15.) Mar. 2:18-22 (vss. 19-20 L), (vs. 21 L), (vs. 22 L) (26,7), 16.) Mar. 2:23-28 (vss. 25-26 L+S), (vss. 27-28 L) (27,8), 17.) Mar. 3:1-5 (L) (28,8), 18.) Mar. 3:22-30 (vss. 23-26 L), (vs. 27 L), (vss. 28-30 L) (31,8), 19.) Mar. 11:28-33 (L) (32,8), 20.) Mar. 12:14-17 (L) (33,8), 21.) Mar. 12:18-27 (vss. 24-25 L), (vss. 26-27 L+S) (34,9), 22.) Mar. 12:35-37 (L+S) (34,10), 23.) Luk. 5:30-32 (L) (35,10), 24.) Luk. 5:33-35 (L) (35,10), 25.) Luk. 5:36-39 (vs. 36 L), (vss. 37-38 L), (vs. 39 L) (38,10), 26.) Luk. 6:1-5 (L+S) (38,11), 27.) Luk. 6:6-11 (L) (39,11), 28.) Luk. 6:39 (L) (40,11), 29.) Luk. 6:40 (L) (41,11), 30.) Luk. 6:41-42 (L) (42,11), 31.) Luk. 6:43-45 (L) (43,11), 32.) Luk. 6:46-49 (vs.46 L). (vss. 47-50 L) (45,11), 33.) Luk. 7:36-50 (L) (46,11), 34.) Luk 11:14-23 (vss.17-18 L), (vs.19 L), (vs.20 L), (vss. 21-22 L), (vs. 23 L) (51,11), (vs. 44 L) (53,11), 36.) Luk. 11:45-52 (vs. 45-46 L), (vs. 47-48 L), (vss. 49-51 L), (vs. 52 L) (57,11), 37.) Luk. 13:11-16 (L) (58,11), 38.) Luk. 14:2-6 (L) (59,11), 39.) Luk. 14:7-11 (L) (60,11). 40.) Luk. 15:1-7 (L) (61,11), 42.) Luk. 15:11-32 (L) (63,11), 43.) Luk. 16:10-13 (L) (64,11), 44.) Luk 20:2-8 (L) (65,11), 45.) Luk 20:21-26 (L) (66,11), 46.) Luk 20:33-40 (vss. 33-36 L), (vss. 37-38 L) (68,11), 47.) Luk 20:41-44 (L+S) (68,12), 48.) Joh 7:21-24 (L) (69,12), 49.) Joh 8:7 (L) (70,12)

So far, I have noticed that the people in the bible Jesus applied this "Methodology" too did not care for it much. I am not sure things have changed.

 

[GWH]

Just an observation:

1.) 70 out of 82 times Jesus states erroneous beliefs, responses, actions, teachings, … can be3 proven to be wrong simply by logic and reason: Considering all the ramifications of a belief, or belief set, and seeing if every one of them makes complete sense. No scriptures are used. No scriptural situations are brought up. Simply, "Think this through boys. Your beliefs, actions, responses, ... make no sense whatsoever."

2.) In 12 out of 82 places, while the use of logic and reason remains, Jesus also adds a bible passage or situation His opponents missed or didn't want to consider because it messed with what they "wanted to believe" "as" truth.

This would mean, "If" we want truth, and not to merely hold fast to what we "want to believe" "as" truth, ...

A.) Gather every passage that "Might" apply to the topic at hand. This includes:

a.) All the data you use to hold fast to your beliefs, and to refute all opposing beliefs.

b.) All the data those with opposing beliefs use to hold fast to their beliefs as truth and reject yours as lies.

c.) All the data no belief group wants to look at, because it can't be used to prove any of their beliefs to be true, and might prove them all to be lies, but that "might" apply.

d.) "Accurately dissecting" the meaning of each in the context of the arguments/discussion in which it is found, holding to a consistent meaning for words, and root words, … You know “Accurately dissecting” all the word of God says and means without trying to force everything to fit what we “want to believe” “as” truth. 2Ti. 2:15, 2Pe. 3:16

e.) Once we have gathered all the possible data that "might" apply, and have gotten to the exact meaning of the passage in the context of the discussion, arguments, points made, ... throughout the entire discussion the relevant passages are a part of, we combine just the meaning present, with no meaning added, subtracted or distorted to try and force it to align with any belief, think all the ramifications of each of your beliefs through, checking to see if every ramification of each of them makes complete logical, reasonable, rational sense. Mat. 15:6-9

f.) Then ask others if you missed any data that “might” apply and if all your conclusions make complete logical, reasonable rational sense.

g.) If every ramification of each of your beliefs doesn’t make complete logical, reasonable, rational sense, even if there are no passages or biblical situations that might apply, at all, your belief is wrong.

h.) If this is the case, go back, restudy, find the passages you may have missed, seek out where you added meaning, subtracted meaning, or distorted it tin an attempt to hold fast to your belief, figure out how you missed the truth, and fix your beliefs.

But don't take my word for it. Study it through for yourself:

But don’t take my word for it. Study it through for yourself. L = just logic and reason L + S = Logic and Reason with Scriptural evidence. The numbers, in parenthesis, separated by a coma are the running totals. Let me know how I did. 1.) Mat 9:1-7 (L) (1,0) (1 Logic and Reason alone, zero scripture references so far) 2.) Mat. 9:10-13 (vs. 12 L), (vs. 13 L + S) (2,1), 3.) Mat. 9:14-17 (vs. 15 L), (vs. 16 L), (vs. 17 L) (5,1), 4.) Mat. 11:15-20 (vs. 15 L), (vss. 16-17 L), (vs. 18-19 L) (8,1), 5.) Mat. 12:1-8 (vss. 3-4 L+S), (vss. 5-6 L+S), (vss. 7-8 L+S) (8,4), 6.) Mat. 12:10-14 (L) (9,4), 7.) Mat 12:22-32 (vs. 25 L), (vs. 26 L), (vs. 28 L), (vs. 29 L), (vs. 30 L), (vss. 31-32 L) (16,4), 8.) Mat. 12:33-37 (vs. 33 L), (vss. 34-35 L), (vss. 36-37 L), (19,4), 9.) Mat. 15:2-9 (vs. 3-7 L+S), (vss. 8-9 L+S) (19,6), 10.) Mat. 21:23-27 (L) (20,6), 11.) Mat. 22:16-21 (L) (21,6), 12.) Mat. 22:41-46 (L+S) (21,7), 13.) Mar 2:2-12 (L) (22,7), 14.) Mar. 2:16-17 (L) (23,7), 15.) Mar. 2:18-22 (vss. 19-20 L), (vs. 21 L), (vs. 22 L) (26,7), 16.) Mar. 2:23-28 (vss. 25-26 L+S), (vss. 27-28 L) (27,8), 17.) Mar. 3:1-5 (L) (28,8), 18.) Mar. 3:22-30 (vss. 23-26 L), (vs. 27 L), (vss. 28-30 L) (31,8), 19.) Mar. 11:28-33 (L) (32,8), 20.) Mar. 12:14-17 (L) (33,8), 21.) Mar. 12:18-27 (vss. 24-25 L), (vss. 26-27 L+S) (34,9), 22.) Mar. 12:35-37 (L+S) (34,10), 23.) Luk. 5:30-32 (L) (35,10), 24.) Luk. 5:33-35 (L) (35,10), 25.) Luk. 5:36-39 (vs. 36 L), (vss. 37-38 L), (vs. 39 L) (38,10), 26.) Luk. 6:1-5 (L+S) (38,11), 27.) Luk. 6:6-11 (L) (39,11), 28.) Luk. 6:39 (L) (40,11), 29.) Luk. 6:40 (L) (41,11), 30.) Luk. 6:41-42 (L) (42,11), 31.) Luk. 6:43-45 (L) (43,11), 32.) Luk. 6:46-49 (vs.46 L). (vss. 47-50 L) (45,11), 33.) Luk. 7:36-50 (L) (46,11), 34.) Luk 11:14-23 (vss.17-18 L), (vs.19 L), (vs.20 L), (vss. 21-22 L), (vs. 23 L) (51,11), (vs. 44 L) (53,11), 36.) Luk. 11:45-52 (vs. 45-46 L), (vs. 47-48 L), (vss. 49-51 L), (vs. 52 L) (57,11), 37.) Luk. 13:11-16 (L) (58,11), 38.) Luk. 14:2-6 (L) (59,11), 39.) Luk. 14:7-11 (L) (60,11). 40.) Luk. 15:1-7 (L) (61,11), 42.) Luk. 15:11-32 (L) (63,11), 43.) Luk. 16:10-13 (L) (64,11), 44.) Luk 20:2-8 (L) (65,11), 45.) Luk 20:21-26 (L) (66,11), 46.) Luk 20:33-40 (vss. 33-36 L), (vss. 37-38 L) (68,11), 47.) Luk 20:41-44 (L+S) (68,12), 48.) Joh 7:21-24 (L) (69,12), 49.) Joh 8:7 (L) (70,12)

So far, I have noticed that the people in the bible Jesus applied this "Methodology" too did not care for it much. I am not sure things have changed.

As I said on another thread, this is a great insight that serves to describe the parameters of truthseeking:
systematic Scripture study, harmonization of disparate teachings, willing to amend old beliefs.

I have shared that I (being raised a Baptist) amended belief in OSAS because of learning GW regarding the need for perseverance.

Was there a major amendment you made in your views as you learned more of GW?

 

[EmethAlethia]

As I said on another thread, this is a great insight that serves to describe the parameters of truthseeking:
systematic Scripture study, harmonization of disparate teachings, willing to amend old beliefs.

I have shared that I (being raised a Baptist) amended belief in OSAS because of learning GW regarding the need for perseverance.

Was there a major amendment you made in your views as you learned more of GW?

I have modified dozens upon dozens of my initial beliefs based on additional information I missed, passages and data I misinterpreted and people pointing out that certain beliefs just did not make any real sense, considering ... even beliefs that would make God a self-confessed adulterer if my initial beliefs were correct.

There is no belief of mine that is sacred. Truth alone is sacred. "I am the way, the truth and the life ..." "Father sanctify them with Thy truth, Thy word is truth.". Miss the truth and you've missed Christ.

 

[GWH]

I have modified dozens upon dozens of my initial beliefs based on additional information I missed, passages and data I misinterpreted and people pointing out that certain beliefs just did not make any real sense, considering ... even beliefs that would make God a self-confessed adulterer if my initial beliefs were correct.

There is no belief of mine that is sacred. Truth alone is sacred. "I am the way, the truth and the life ..." "Father sanctify them with Thy truth, Thy word is truth.". Miss the truth and you've missed Christ.

You think my thoughts!
I have also amended my views many times, including because of discussions on CC.
Some day I might try to compile a list, but ones that come immediately to my mind that were prompted by discussions with tulipists include:

The purpose of this lesson/thread is to explain GRFS or how to satisfy God’s condition for forgiveness of sins that is indicated in Scripture by the word “IF” (e.g., John 8:42, Rom. 10:9), which is the fulcrum of faith, implying the ability either to cooperate with God or not (e.g., Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) or MFW.

“Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God enables/gives every sinful soul the ability and opportunity to repent of sin (Matt. 4:17) and seek salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11, Eph. 2:8). As Heb. 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (Acts 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts 28:24) “They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.’” (Acts 28:25-27a, cf. 2Tim. 3:7)

We can see that a sinner’s heart is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37), but the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6). God’s enabling of seeking is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue after the heart becomes hardened or completely corrupt (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Over...

 

[EmethAlethia]

You think my thoughts!
I have also amended my views many times, including because of discussions on CC.
Some day I might try to compile a list, but ones that come immediately to my mind that were prompted by discussions with tulipists include:

The purpose of this lesson/thread is to explain GRFS or how to satisfy God’s condition for forgiveness of sins that is indicated in Scripture by the word “IF” (e.g., John 8:42, Rom. 10:9), which is the fulcrum of faith, implying the ability either to cooperate with God or not (e.g., Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) or MFW.

“Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God enables/gives every sinful soul the ability and opportunity to repent of sin (Matt. 4:17) and seek salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11, Eph. 2:8). As Heb. 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (Acts 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts 28:24) “They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.’” (Acts 28:25-27a, cf. 2Tim. 3:7)

We can see that a sinner’s heart is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37), but the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6). God’s enabling of seeking is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue after the heart becomes hardened or completely corrupt (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Over...

I always tell people, "So, you trust in your heart that your beliefs are true?" Your heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. It sounds like you are trusting Satan himself for your beliefs.

 

[GWH]

I always tell people, "So, you trust in your heart that your beliefs are true?" Your heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. It sounds like you are trusting Satan himself for your beliefs.

That certainly appears to be true of tulipists, but God knows whether their heresy is intentional or due to being brain-washed,
so that perhaps they will barely make it to heaven (1Cor. 3:10-15).

 

[EmethAlethia]

That certainly appears to be true of tulipists, but God knows whether their heresy is intentional or due to being brain-washed,
so that perhaps they will barely make it to heaven (1Cor. 3:10-15).

LOL No incorrect beliefs are intentional. By definition, all beliefs, be they mine or anyone else's are what we believe to be truth. I do not doubt the sincerity or zeal for God in accordance with their own beliefs, of those who strap bombs to their own children and send them out to kill infidels. Rom. 10:1-3 I never doubt anyone's zeal for God.

 

[GWH]

LOL No incorrect beliefs are intentional. By definition, all beliefs, be they mine or anyone else's are what we believe to be truth. I do not doubt the sincerity or zeal for God in accordance with their own beliefs, of those who strap bombs to their own children and send them out to kill infidels. Rom. 10:1-3 I never doubt anyone's zeal for God.

Whoa, bro! You may want to rethink that belief.
Evil behavior stems from incorrect belief,
but if both are unintentional, then how can souls be blameworthy?

Perhaps we could say that intentional rejection of GW leads to unintended consequences
along the lines of 2Thes. 2:10-12 & Rom. 1:18-26?

 

[timf]

Human logic and skepticism can be useful to sift through false doctrine. However as today's universities prove everyday it can also give us extraordinarily bad results and extreme distance from truth. It lead Thomas Jefferson to write his own bible.

Rather than using logic to throw out the bible, one can make better use of it to resolve what appears to be inconsistencies in the bible. For example some have found the promise to be able to move mountains to be unobtainable today. However, if one sees in the a description of what supernatural powers would be available o those of Israel supernaturally changed by God to have the law written in their hearts in the future earthly kingdom, the promise seems a little more realistic.

 

[GWH]

Human logic and skepticism can be useful to sift through false doctrine. However as today's universities prove everyday it can also give us extraordinarily bad results and extreme distance from truth. It lead Thomas Jefferson to write his own bible.

Rather than using logic to throw out the bible, one can make better use of it to resolve what appears to be inconsistencies in the bible. For example some have found the promise to be able to move mountains to be unobtainable today. However, if one sees in the a description of what supernatural powers would be available o those of Israel supernaturally changed by God to have the law written in their hearts in the future earthly kingdom, the promise seems a little more realistic.

Yes, harmonizing GW leads the TSer to understand that the mountain with which Jesus is concerned is the human will/heart (Matt. 13:14-15) and the supernatural power is divine love (Eph. 3:16-19).

 

[EmethAlethia]

Whoa, bro! You may want to rethink that belief.
Evil behavior stems from incorrect belief,
but if both are unintentional, then how can souls be blameworthy?

Perhaps we could say that intentional rejection of GW leads to unintended consequences
along the lines of 2Thes. 2:10-12 & Rom. 1:18-26?

No, while the beliefs of the lost are unintentional, their rejection of the truth leading to God's deluding influence to believe, and then live in accordance with, lies is not something any of the lost believe in, and not a one of them will have a clue that is the case till they stand in judgment. Yes, evil behavior stems from incorrect beliefs. But the beliefs themselves are reinforced by God leading to extreme sincerity and zeal in accordance with the lies they believe. From their perspective, every one of them loves truth and believes the truth. They can pass lie detector tests. Rom. 10:1-3

 

[GWH]

No, while the beliefs of the lost are unintentional, their rejection of the truth leading to God's deluding influence to believe, and then live in accordance with, lies is not something any of the lost believe in, and not a one of them will have a clue that is the case till they stand in judgment. Yes, evil behavior stems from incorrect beliefs. But the beliefs themselves are reinforced by God leading to extreme sincerity and zeal in accordance with the lies they believe. From their perspective, every one of them loves truth and believes the truth. They can pass lie detector tests. Rom. 10:1-3

I wonder why you now shy away from the very insight you shared with me regarding the meaning of 2Thes. 2:10-13 (cf. Rom. 1:18-26)?
A hard path (Matt. 13:4)? You converted me to believe that refusing to love the truth is intentional; should I now commit apostasy?

 

[EmethAlethia]

You think my thoughts!
I have also amended my views many times, including because of discussions on CC.
Some day I might try to compile a list, but ones that come immediately to my mind that were prompted by discussions with tulipists include:

The purpose of this lesson/thread is to explain GRFS or how to satisfy God’s condition for forgiveness of sins that is indicated in Scripture by the word “IF” (e.g., John 8:42, Rom. 10:9), which is the fulcrum of faith, implying the ability either to cooperate with God or not (e.g., Deut. 30:19, Matt. 23:37) or MFW.

“Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God enables/gives every sinful soul the ability and opportunity to repent of sin (Matt. 4:17) and seek salvation (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11, Eph. 2:8). As Heb. 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19). That is why Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (Acts 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (Acts 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts 28:24) “They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.’” (Acts 28:25-27a, cf. 2Tim. 3:7)

We can see that a sinner’s heart is “deceitful… and beyond cure” (Jer. 17:9) when it becomes calloused (cf. Matt. 23:37), but the uncalloused heart is enabled to seek salvation and find God (per Matt. 7:7 & Heb. 11:6). God’s enabling of seeking is not irresistible, it does not pry open a hardened heart, and it does not continue after the heart becomes hardened or completely corrupt (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Over...

The "Faith" that God rewards those who diligently, persistently keep on seeking Him (Not proof your beliefs about Him are truth.) is a requirement to come to Him Heb. 11:6 Without it you won't get to Him, or please Him. This specific "Type" of faith is on the "Fruits" list of requirements. Congratulations. You found another "Fruit" of salvation the lost do not have. Good job.

Every individual can receive a love of the truth resulting in ongoing seeking of the truth OR they can choose to reject it. It's the key, the only key, to eventual saving faith in the truth. Miss it, and you end up believing lies. 2Th. 2:11 You will perish and not see salvation. 2Th. 2:10 TAnd you cannot even see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 There is no other starting point. Every belief group focuses on beliefs.

"Belief groups do not exist to get anyone to the truth. They exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize, ... their beliefs "AS" truth." Me​

Miss the correct path and you are guaranteed an eternity in hell. Almost everyone wants to jump right into what "Faith in the truth" is. They want the "Gate" without the ongoing, never ceasing, for and by themselves, labors of the path that would get them to the one true gate to life. It's a choice. Anyone with any "Unquestionable truths" is on the wrong path. They love what they believe, not truth. In every area where they possess one, their eyes and ears are closed to even considering anything else. Share with them that they are on the wrong path, and the path they are on leads to hell, regardless of their beliefs and gifts (If they have them) and they will want to tear you to pieces.

They most certainly will not carefully consider the evidence you can provide. Mat. 7:6 Their responses also prove they did not obey Mat. 7:1-5 Or they'd fix that characteristic. Mat. 7:6 is a "Fruit", those who will be saved eventually, cannot ever possess. (Yes, another differentiating Fruit Mat. 7:15-20 the opposite one, the one putting you on the path to eventual salvation, is found in Mat. 7:7-12/Luk 11:9-13 and it results in eventually, if you never stop, getting the Holy Spirit. All of Mat. 7 is about the 2 completely different "Sets" of "Fruits".)

Yes, every man can "seek" salvation. But only those who stay on the right "path", that will continue to get them from erroneous beliefs to truth for the rest of their lives, can even see it, let alone believe the true gospel, and it may take decades, or an entire lifetime to get enough of the truth to be saved by faith in the truth. That's why I focus on the path and the "Fruits". If you have the right path and the right "Fruits", the beliefs will come. God promises that. Miss the path, and you can keep on searching forever and never find it, although God will give you an unshakeable faith that the beliefs you end up with are 100% true. Look at the lost "Christians" of Mat. 7:22-23. Do they seek? Yes. They seek more proof their beliefs are true. They seek more proof all opposing beliefs are false. They seek ways of interpreting everything in such a way everything supports their beliefs or at least does not negate them.

You've seen the Calvinist interpretation of 1Ti. 2:4 God doesn't desire "All Men" to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. He only desires 1/10 of a percent of those who believe they are Christians to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Talk about hermeneutical contortionism ... The problem is, that also means God desires 99.999% of all humanity to roast in agony in the flames of hell for all eternity. But they don't even want to consider that the God they believe in "desires" that as well.

There is no "partial" love of the truth. There is no third category in 2Th. 2:10-13 Everyone is in one group or the other. And true Christians are commanded to stop sharing when they see the responses in Mat. 7:6. To continue sharing is disobedience to God's command. Worse, you are actually fighting against the work God is doing in them 2Th. 2:11 Even worse than that, since they can't even see the truth, let alone believe it 2Co. 4:3-4 Your continued sharing will make their punishment in hell worse Luk. 12:47-48

 

[GWH]

The "Faith" that God rewards those who diligently, persistently keep on seeking Him (Not proof your beliefs about Him are truth.) is a requirement to come to Him Heb. 11:6 Without it you won't get to Him, or please Him. This specific "Type" of faith is on the "Fruits" list of requirements. Congratulations. You found another "Fruit" of salvation the lost do not have. Good job.

Every individual can receive a love of the truth resulting in ongoing seeking of the truth OR they can choose to reject it. It's the key, the only key, to eventual saving faith in the truth. Miss it, and you end up believing lies. 2Th. 2:11 You will perish and not see salvation. 2Th. 2:10 TAnd you cannot even see, let alone believe, the true gospel. 2Co. 4:3-4 There is no other starting point. Every belief group focuses on beliefs.

"Belief groups do not exist to get anyone to the truth. They exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize, ... their beliefs "AS" truth." Me​

Miss the correct path and you are guaranteed an eternity in hell. Almost everyone wants to jump right into what "Faith in the truth" is. They want the "Gate" without the ongoing, never ceasing, for and by themselves, labors of the path that would get them to the one true gate to life. It's a choice. Anyone with any "Unquestionable truths" is on the wrong path. They love what they believe, not truth. In every area where they possess one, their eyes and ears are closed to even considering anything else. Share with them that they are on the wrong path, and the path they are on leads to hell, regardless of their beliefs and gifts (If they have them) and they will want to tear you to pieces.

They most certainly will not carefully consider the evidence you can provide. Mat. 7:6 Their responses also prove they did not obey Mat. 7:1-5 Or they'd fix that characteristic. Mat. 7:6 is a "Fruit", those who will be saved eventually, cannot ever possess. (Yes, another differentiating Fruit Mat. 7:15-20 the opposite one, the one putting you on the path to eventual salvation, is found in Mat. 7:7-12/Luk 11:9-13 and it results in eventually, if you never stop, getting the Holy Spirit. All of Mat. 7 is about the 2 completely different "Sets" of "Fruits".)

Yes, every man can "seek" salvation. But only those who stay on the right "path", that will continue to get them from erroneous beliefs to truth for the rest of their lives, can even see it, let alone believe the true gospel, and it may take decades, or an entire lifetime to get enough of the truth to be saved by faith in the truth. That's why I focus on the path and the "Fruits". If you have the right path and the right "Fruits", the beliefs will come. God promises that. Miss the path, and you can keep on searching forever and never find it, although God will give you an unshakeable faith that the beliefs you end up with are 100% true. Look at the lost "Christians" of Mat. 7:22-23. Do they seek? Yes. They seek more proof their beliefs are true. They seek more proof all opposing beliefs are false. They seek ways of interpreting everything in such a way everything supports their beliefs or at least does not negate them.

You've seen the Calvinist interpretation of 1Ti. 2:4 God doesn't desire "All Men" to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. He only desires 1/10 of a percent of those who believe they are Christians to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Talk about hermeneutical contortionism ... The problem is, that also means God desires 99.999% of all humanity to roast in agony in the flames of hell for all eternity. But they don't even want to consider that the God they believe in "desires" that as well.

There is no "partial" love of the truth. There is no third category in 2Th. 2:10-13 Everyone is in one group or the other. And true Christians are commanded to stop sharing when they see the responses in Mat. 7:6. To continue sharing is disobedience to God's command. Worse, you are actually fighting against the work God is doing in them 2Th. 2:11 Even worse than that, since they can't even see the truth, let alone believe it 2Co. 4:3-4 Your continued sharing will make their punishment in hell worse Luk. 12:47-48

I agree, except that I share what I believe AS truth in hope that others will find the TRUTH despite imperfect understanding and partial love.
I apply Matt. 7:6 by not quarreling.
I guess you will see the addition to the creed that your insight prompted on the Hermeneutics thread.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Human logic and skepticism can be useful to sift through false doctrine. However as today's universities prove everyday it can also give us extraordinarily bad results and extreme distance from truth. It lead Thomas Jefferson to write his own bible.

Rather than using logic to throw out the bible, one can make better use of it to resolve what appears to be inconsistencies in the bible. For example some have found the promise to be able to move mountains to be unobtainable today. However, if one sees in the a description of what supernatural powers would be available o those of Israel supernaturally changed by God to have the law written in their hearts in the future earthly kingdom, the promise seems a little more realistic.

If we do not receive a love of the truth so as to be saved, we are perishing regardless of the beliefs we end up with, and everyone in the 10,000 non-Christian and 45,000 different "Christian" belief groups gets everything they need, from God Himself, to get whatever logic and reasoning they need to hold fast to whatever beliefs they choose to love. 2Th. 2:10-13.

From the context of 1Cor. 13:2, the entire discussion, starting in 1Co. 12:4 is a reproof of the Corinthians seeking after the gifts they consider greater, forsaking the ones God Himself gave them, harming the body of Christ in the process. The common interpretation of 1Co. 12:31 completely contradicts everything Paul laid out in the previous chapter. THERE ARE NO GREATER OR LESSER GIFTS! ALL OF THEM ARE REQUIRED FOR THE BODY TO FUNCTION PROPERLY. DON'T HURT THE BODY OF CHRIST FOR YOUR OWN SELF AGRANDIZEMENT! 1Co. 12:31 can also be interpreted as, "But you are earnestly desiring greater gifts. Let me show you a more excellent way."

The next constructs are along the line of, "The guy was so cool he could walk on the face of the sun and not get burned." No one, ever, had the tongues of angels as there is no proof they exist. Whenever angels spoke in the bible they used men's languages. The point is, your seeking after greater gifts, even if you got them to the point even God Himself wasn't your equal, without the exercising of love in using them, they are worthless.

Knowing absolutely everything, every single mystery, every single piece of knowledge to the point you are EQUAL WITH GOD HIMSELF ... without exercising that gift in love it would be worthless. If you have faith so as to be able to cast mountains into the sea, ... Noone ever had ANY of these gifts to this extent. It's a continuation of the reproof. Stop being selfish. Stop seeking glory. Start using the gifts you were assigned to the service of the body, ... it's about the 4th argument in the chain to get them to stop their bad behavior.

The next argument: The gifts you are seeking are ceasing and passing away, so stop your bad behavior because "shortly" you won't have them anyway. Besides, compared with the "perfect" (Neuter gender) they are partial things. They are the childish things. They are like seeing dimly as through a beaten and polished piece of silver compared to seeing face to face. When the "perfect" comes they will be done away with. What will remain? Faith, Hope and Love. Only Love exists in heaven, so they cease before that happens. Rom. 8:24

 

[EmethAlethia]

I wonder why you now shy away from the very insight you shared with me regarding the meaning of 2Thes. 2:10-13 (cf. Rom. 1:18-26)?
A hard path (Matt. 13:4)? You converted me to believe that refusing to love the truth is intentional; should I now commit apostasy?

Nope ... Just a misunderstanding.

 

[GWH]

Nope ... Just a misunderstanding.

Well, what I mistook for your insight prompted me to incorporate it into the core creed,
so I now view it as my insight. Thanks!

 

[GWH]

Well, what I mistook for your insight prompted me to incorporate it into the core creed,
so I now view it as my insight. Thanks!

Well, how is your study of salvation progressing?
Do you want to share parts of it on this thread?

 

[EmethAlethia]

Well, how is your study of salvation progressing?
Do you want to share parts of it on this thread?

I did post some of it here, and some of it in your threads. I think if we go off of your thread, and we keep seeing what we each believe and why, we will probably hit all of it. Not that either of us will be right when we do, but we are working in the right direction ... together... for now ... which I can't remember the last time that happened was.

The good news is those who are "looking", "seeking", ... will eventually find it. Whether it is from us, someone else, or just due to their own personal seeking.

 

[GWH]

I did post some of it here, and some of it in your threads. I think if we go off of your thread, and we keep seeing what we each believe and why, we will probably hit all of it. Not that either of us will be right when we do, but we are working in the right direction ... together... for now ... which I can't remember the last time that happened was.

The good news is those who are "looking", "seeking", ... will eventually find it. Whether it is from us, someone else, or just due to their own personal seeking.

Yes, because it is good/right to connect Rom. 1:20 with Matt. 7:7 in order to indicate how God’s love and plan of salvation are universal in scope. In this connection or vein I find the Parable of the Talents to be instructive. Do you see why/agree?