The gospels superior to the epistles?

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Gideon300

Gideon300

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Some believers seem to think that only the gospels are the words of Jesus. So they do not give the same weight of authority to the words of the apostles. This is not what Lord Jesus said. This is what He had to say:

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you." John 16: 12-15

It should be noted that the gospels were written after the rest of the NT. They are in the wrong order chronologically. The Apostles were busy preaching the Word of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

There is a great deal of teaching in the epistles that clarifies the words of Jesus while He was here on earth. For example, Paul defines the Kingdom of God, and states what it is not as well as what it is. Lord Jesus did not speak about spiritual gifts. He did not give instructions about choosing elders. Lord Jesus did not talk about the Church as His body. He did not talk about believers being crucified with Him.

We do not dismiss the words of Jesus, far from it. But we also must recognise that Jesus did not stop speaking after His glorification. He is the Living Word of God still.
 
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passion84god said:
No, but I am a Bible-believing Christian. Did Paul directly quote from Luke 10:7 in 1 Timothy 5:18 or didn't he? He did, and while calling it scripture, so what you stated is obviously false.
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Paul did exactly what Jesus did. Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4. Scripture in the early church was the Old Testament at first as the NT was being written. Remember that Paul was a Pharisee and one of the best.
 
Gideon300 said:
Paul did exactly what Jesus did. Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4. Scripture in the early church was the Old Testament at first as the NT was being written. Remember that Paul was a Pharisee and one of the best.
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In 1 Timothy 5:18, Paul quoted two scriptures to verify the claim that he made in the previous verse.

1 Timothy 5:17-18​

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

His first scriptural citation was from Deuteronomy 25:4, and his second scriptural citation was an exact rendering of Luke 10:7, from the Greek.​

Luke 10:7​

7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.

Paul called what Luke wrote "scripture," and the Greek word he used was "graphē," which means a writing. Luke's gospel had already been written at that time, and Paul quoted it as a point of reference for his readers. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge this.​
 
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Gideon300 said:
Some believers seem to think that only the gospels are the words of Jesus. So they do not give the same weight of authority to the words of the apostles. This is not what Lord Jesus said. This is what He had to say:

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you." John 16: 12-15

It should be noted that the gospels were written after the rest of the NT. They are in the wrong order chronologically. The Apostles were busy preaching the Word of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

There is a great deal of teaching in the epistles that clarifies the words of Jesus while He was here on earth. For example, Paul defines the Kingdom of God, and states what it is not as well as what it is. Lord Jesus did not speak about spiritual gifts. He did not give instructions about choosing elders. Lord Jesus did not talk about the Church as His body. He did not talk about believers being crucified with Him.

We do not dismiss the words of Jesus, far from it. But we also must recognise that Jesus did not stop speaking after His glorification. He is the Living Word of God still.
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Good points.

Regarding the chronology of the NT writings, there is insufficient evidence to be dogmatic, but most scholars think that Matthew and Luke incorporated Mark, which Papias said was derived from Peter (aka the Q source) before he was martyred circa 67 A.D.

Of course, the epistles of Paul and Peter also must have been written before being murdered by Nero c. 67 A.D.

It should be noted that both Mark and Luke were associated with Paul and involved with his ministry, and the last event in Acts occurred about 62 A.D., before awareness of the Nero persecutions and the destruction of Jerusalem. Lack of reference to these events is also an argument for dating John in the 60s , but there also are good reasons for thinking he wrote it during his long exile on Patmos 89-95 A.D.

Thus, there is every good reason to view the NT as a package deal, authored by apostles of Jesus seeking to preserve the oral tradition before they died because his parousia did not occur quickly.
 
Gideon300 said:
Some believers seem to think that only the gospels are the words of Jesus. So they do not give the same weight of authority to the words of the apostles. This is not what Lord Jesus said. This is what He had to say:

"I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you." John 16: 12-15

It should be noted that the gospels were written after the rest of the NT. They are in the wrong order chronologically. The Apostles were busy preaching the Word of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

There is a great deal of teaching in the epistles that clarifies the words of Jesus while He was here on earth. For example, Paul defines the Kingdom of God, and states what it is not as well as what it is. Lord Jesus did not speak about spiritual gifts. He did not give instructions about choosing elders. Lord Jesus did not talk about the Church as His body. He did not talk about believers being crucified with Him.

We do not dismiss the words of Jesus, far from it. But we also must recognise that Jesus did not stop speaking after His glorification. He is the Living Word of God still.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I believe that is a danger with so-called "Red Letter Bibles", which print the words spoken by Jesus in Red.
 
I absolutely adore all of the epistles and of course , the Apostles were guided by God's Holy Spirit .
For me , it's important to remember that , Jesus received God's Holy Spirit without measure , some people even believe that Jesus is actually God . If that is true , then He should b our final destination when seeking for Truth .
The Apostles were very much human and there is plenty of evidence of their humanity in their epistles . That's not a criticism , we r all human .
Jesus is full of the Holy Spirit , to capacity , Jesus is the example we should all b trying to follow . The example of pure love . God is love , God is Spirit .
We don't receive the spirit of the Apostles . Their epistles r a well of comfort and guidance in spiritual matters and in practical matters .
Jesus said we must take up the cross and follow him . The servants r not above the master but they will b ( not in this life , not in their flesh ) as he is and where he is , with him forever in the next life .
If we didn't have any of the epistles we would still know Jesus through the Gospels . Can we turn that statement around and it still b true ?
 
Suze said:
I absolutely adore all of the epistles and of course , the Apostles were guided by God's Holy Spirit .
For me , it's important to remember that , Jesus received God's Holy Spirit without measure , some people even believe that Jesus is actually God . If that is true , then He should b our final destination when seeking for Truth .
The Apostles were very much human and there is plenty of evidence of their humanity in their epistles . That's not a criticism , we r all human .
Jesus is full of the Holy Spirit , to capacity , Jesus is the example we should all b trying to follow . The example of pure love . God is love , God is Spirit .
We don't receive the spirit of the Apostles . Their epistles r a well of comfort and guidance in spiritual matters and in practical matters .
Jesus said we must take up the cross and follow him . The servants r not above the master but they will b ( not in this life , not in their flesh ) as he is and where he is , with him forever in the next life .
If we didn't have any of the epistles we would still know Jesus through the Gospels . Can we turn that statement around and it still b true ?
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I agree that Jesus, being fully God as well as (since the incarnation) fully Man, is far more important than any mere human being. However, we only know what Jesus said, through what the human writers of the gospels, inspired by God, wrote. The writers of the other books of the Bible were likewise inspired by God. This thread, I thought, was about whether the gospels are superior to the epistles, not about whether we should follow Jesus Christ or follow His apostles.

You say: "If we didn't have any of the epistles we would still know Jesus through the Gospels . Can we turn that statement around and it still b true ?" I would say yes. The earlier Christians had no New Testament at all. Yet they knew the Lord Jesus Christ through the preaching of the apostles and others. Then some churches and individual Christians were recipients of epistles. Only later were the gospels written, and later still distributed.
 
DavidLamb said:
I agree that Jesus, being fully God as well as (since the incarnation) fully Man, is far more important than any mere human being. However, we only know what Jesus said, through what the human writers of the gospels, inspired by God, wrote. The writers of the other books of the Bible were likewise inspired by God. This thread, I thought, was about whether the gospels are superior to the epistles, not about whether we should follow Jesus Christ or follow His apostles.

You say: "If we didn't have any of the epistles we would still know Jesus through the Gospels . Can we turn that statement around and it still b true ?" I would say yes. The earlier Christians had no New Testament at all. Yet they knew the Lord Jesus Christ through the preaching of the apostles and others. Then some churches and individual Christians were recipients of epistles. Only later were the gospels written, and later still distributed.
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But what about us ? Those who lived after all the Apostles and witnesses r long dead . What about us ? The last almost 2000 years ? How would we learn about Jesus if not from the Gospels ? From the epistles only ?
 
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Suze said:
But what about us ? Those who lived after all the Apostles and witnesses r long dead . What about us ? The last almost 2000 years ? How would we learn about Jesus if not from the Gospels ? From the epistles only ?
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No, of course not. We don't have the apostles now. We do have the complete word of God. I hope I didn't give you the impression that Christians today should only read the epistles. That certainly was not my intention, so I apologise if any careless wording of min gave you that false impression.
 
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DavidLamb said:
No, of course not. We don't have the apostles now. We do have the complete word of God. I hope I didn't give you the impression that Christians today should only read the epistles. That certainly was not my intention, so I apologise if any careless wording of min gave you that false impression.
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So, let our conclusion be to accept the NT as a package deal inspired by God
and allowed/caused to be canonized by Him. 📖
 
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DavidLamb said:
No, of course not. We don't have the apostles now. We do have the complete word of God. I hope I didn't give you the impression that Christians today should only read the epistles. That certainly was not my intention, so I apologise if any careless wording of min gave you that false impression.
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No , I didn't think that for one second ❤️
 
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