The Law or Good Works? What's the Difference...if Any?

[Musicmaster]

Many today like to divide up the scriptures as if there were some differentiable distinction between the Law and good works that one may do.

Where it's true that the Mosaic Law (Torah), prescribes commandments, rituals and ethical duties given to Israel, many of its requirements overlap with what modern Christians call "good works" — otherwise defined as morally commendable actions, charity, justice, and even some religious observance. Let's look at some comparisons.

Mosaic law: Establish courts, judges, impartial justice; prohibit perverting justice, taking bribes, favoring the poor or rich; protect the rights of strangers, widows, orphans (e.g., Deut. 16:18–20; Ex. 23:1–9; Deut. 24:17–18).

Modern good works: Supporting rule of law, volunteering legal aid, voting for just policies, refusing corruption, defending marginalized groups and many, many other acts of benevolence toward others by way of physical actions or verbal ministry toward, etc.


Mosaic law: Leave gleanings for the poor, forgive debts in the sabbatical year, provide for widows, orphans, strangers; mandated tithes for Levites and the needy (e.g., Lev. 19:9–10; Deut. 15:1–11; Deut. 14:28–29).

Modern good works: Charitable giving, food banks, debt relief advocacy, social-welfare support, volunteering with shelters.


Mosaic law: Love the stranger because Israelites were strangers in Egypt; specific protections for sojourners (e.g., Ex. 22:21; Lev. 19:34).

Modern good works: Refugee assistance, immigrant legal services, community integration programs, welcoming neighbors.


Mosaic law: Honest weights and measures; prohibitions on stealing, false weights, fraud, and exploiting workers (e.g., Lev. 19:13; Deut. 25:13–16; James 5:4 reflects this ethic in the New Testament).

Modern good works: Fair-trade practices, consumer protection, paying living wages, ethical business conduct.


Mosaic law: Timely pay for workers, permit rest on Sabbaths, kind treatment of animals, rest for the land (e.g., Deut. 24:14–15; Ex. 23:12; Deut. 5:12–15; Deut. 22:6–7).

Modern good works: Labor rights advocacy, humane farming practices, environmental stewardship, employee protections.


Mosaic law: Sabbaths, festivals, sacrificial system, and purity laws structured communal life, rest, and redistribution (e.g., Lev. 23; Deut. 16).

Modern good works: Community-building through religious worship, volunteering in congregational programs, organizing relief during festivals/holidays.


Mosaic law: Laws encouraging mercy (e.g., cities of refuge for manslayers, provisions for restitution, Jubilee principles) (e.g., Num. 35; Lev. 25).

Modern good works: Restorative justice programs, mediation, reparations or restitution efforts.


Mosaic law: Prohibitions against murder; injunctions to protect life (e.g., Ex. 20:13; laws about accidental harm and restitution).

Modern good works: Violence prevention, emergency aid, healthcare access, child protection services.


Mosaic law: Commands to teach children the statutes and covenant (e.g., Deut. 6:4–9).

Modern good works: Civic education, parenting programs, religious instruction, mentoring youth.


Mosaic law: Almsgiving, ritual purity, prayer, and acts required by law that express religious devotion (e.g., Deut. 14:22–29; Lev. 6:2–7).

Modern good works: Public acts of faith-based service, community volunteering motivated by conscience.



So, the next time someone tries to foist some sort of false barrier between the Mosaic Law and modern good works, just remind them of the many Mosaic commandments that clearly function as structured, communal expressions of what contemporary ethics calls "good works"; justice, charity, hospitality, honesty, care for the vulnerable and community practices that promote social cohesion and welfare. The difference is largely institutional and theological — Mosaic Law binds these as covenantal obligations within a religious-legal system. Today they are often framed as voluntary moral duties, social policy or faith-motivated charity, etc.

This is ample reason as to why the statements made by some are absolutely false where they try to stand on the idea that modern good works are independent of the Mosaic Law and legalism when trying to apply them in support of good works being required to retain one's salvation, and especially to earn it by any measure. This makes it absurd the statement some stand upon when claiming, "Yeah, we're saved by grace through faith...but ya gotta live it!"

What rubbish!

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

What about you? Have you ever noticed how any and all good works we may do today have a parallel within the Mosaic Law? No wonder Paul mentioned works being so very distant from our salvation, for it all has a connection to the Law.

MM

 

[Soyeong]

Many today like to divide up the scriptures as if there were some differentiable distinction between the Law and good works that one may do.

Where it's true that the Mosaic Law (Torah), prescribes commandments, rituals and ethical duties given to Israel, many of its requirements overlap with what modern Christians call "good works" — otherwise defined as morally commendable actions, charity, justice, and even some religious observance. Let's look at some comparisons.

Mosaic law: Establish courts, judges, impartial justice; prohibit perverting justice, taking bribes, favoring the poor or rich; protect the rights of strangers, widows, orphans (e.g., Deut. 16:18–20; Ex. 23:1–9; Deut. 24:17–18).

Modern good works: Supporting rule of law, volunteering legal aid, voting for just policies, refusing corruption, defending marginalized groups and many, many other acts of benevolence toward others by way of physical actions or verbal ministry toward, etc.


Mosaic law: Leave gleanings for the poor, forgive debts in the sabbatical year, provide for widows, orphans, strangers; mandated tithes for Levites and the needy (e.g., Lev. 19:9–10; Deut. 15:1–11; Deut. 14:28–29).

Modern good works: Charitable giving, food banks, debt relief advocacy, social-welfare support, volunteering with shelters.


Mosaic law: Love the stranger because Israelites were strangers in Egypt; specific protections for sojourners (e.g., Ex. 22:21; Lev. 19:34).

Modern good works: Refugee assistance, immigrant legal services, community integration programs, welcoming neighbors.


Mosaic law: Honest weights and measures; prohibitions on stealing, false weights, fraud, and exploiting workers (e.g., Lev. 19:13; Deut. 25:13–16; James 5:4 reflects this ethic in the New Testament).

Modern good works: Fair-trade practices, consumer protection, paying living wages, ethical business conduct.


Mosaic law: Timely pay for workers, permit rest on Sabbaths, kind treatment of animals, rest for the land (e.g., Deut. 24:14–15; Ex. 23:12; Deut. 5:12–15; Deut. 22:6–7).

Modern good works: Labor rights advocacy, humane farming practices, environmental stewardship, employee protections.


Mosaic law: Sabbaths, festivals, sacrificial system, and purity laws structured communal life, rest, and redistribution (e.g., Lev. 23; Deut. 16).

Modern good works: Community-building through religious worship, volunteering in congregational programs, organizing relief during festivals/holidays.


Mosaic law: Laws encouraging mercy (e.g., cities of refuge for manslayers, provisions for restitution, Jubilee principles) (e.g., Num. 35; Lev. 25).

Modern good works: Restorative justice programs, mediation, reparations or restitution efforts.


Mosaic law: Prohibitions against murder; injunctions to protect life (e.g., Ex. 20:13; laws about accidental harm and restitution).

Modern good works: Violence prevention, emergency aid, healthcare access, child protection services.


Mosaic law: Commands to teach children the statutes and covenant (e.g., Deut. 6:4–9).

Modern good works: Civic education, parenting programs, religious instruction, mentoring youth.


Mosaic law: Almsgiving, ritual purity, prayer, and acts required by law that express religious devotion (e.g., Deut. 14:22–29; Lev. 6:2–7).

Modern good works: Public acts of faith-based service, community volunteering motivated by conscience.



So, the next time someone tries to foist some sort of false barrier between the Mosaic Law and modern good works, just remind them of the many Mosaic commandments that clearly function as structured, communal expressions of what contemporary ethics calls "good works"; justice, charity, hospitality, honesty, care for the vulnerable and community practices that promote social cohesion and welfare. The difference is largely institutional and theological — Mosaic Law binds these as covenantal obligations within a religious-legal system. Today they are often framed as voluntary moral duties, social policy or faith-motivated charity, etc.

This is ample reason as to why the statements made by some are absolutely false where they try to stand on the idea that modern good works are independent of the Mosaic Law and legalism when trying to apply them in support of good works being required to retain one's salvation, and especially to earn it by any measure. This makes it absurd the statement some stand upon when claiming, "Yeah, we're saved by grace through faith...but ya gotta live it!"

What rubbish!

MM

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The book of the NT had not yet been written at the time of Timothy's childhood, so the sacred writings could have only been referring to book of the OT. Everything that Paul described the sacred writings as being profitable for is in regard to our conduct, and the code of conduct in the OT is the Law of Moses, so that is primarily what Paul was referring to as being profitable for equipping us to do every good work. There are not modern good works that are not in accordance with the Law of Moses, so we have some agreement.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for god to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has ways been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. There is no "...but you have to live it", rather getting to experience the gift of being a doer of the Law of Moses is how God is gracious to us and the way to have faith and has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result.

 

[Musicmaster]

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The book of the NT had not yet been written at the time of Timothy's childhood, so the sacred writings could have only been referring to book of the OT. Everything that Paul described the sacred writings as being profitable for is in regard to our conduct, and the code of conduct in the OT is the Law of Moses, so that is primarily what Paul was referring to as being profitable for equipping us to do every good work. There are not modern good works that are not in accordance with the Law of Moses, so we have some agreement.

It's interesting how Paul stated that it was FROM Timothy's childhood he was acquainted with the sacred writings, which, as you stated, would have begun with the OT. Couple that with this:

1 Corinthians 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Given that the letters to Timothy are among the last of the letters/epistles Paul wrote, there was indeed scripture (commands of the Lord) for him to have read of either the original autographs of Paul's other epistles or copies of them. I've found that the timeline of the writings play an important role in helping us to see some things that otherwise would have been elusive.

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for god to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has ways been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. There is no "...but you have to live it", rather getting to experience the gift of being a doer of the Law of Moses is how God is gracious to us and the way to have faith and has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result.

Good point. By our works being the outflow of that gift of salvation, we then store up treasures in Heaven that moth, rust and thief cannot touch.

Amen

MM

 

[tablet123]

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Good works is the law.

Paul said we do not do away with the law but we live up to it and the law is spiritual which always have to be obeyed laws of love, moral laws.

Which the 2 greatest laws are love God and people.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allow the Spirit to lead them then they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh therefore they are not under the law which the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

Paul said we live up to the law and do not void out the law by faith.

For the law is spiritual, holy, just, and good.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus told the rich man to inherit eternal life to obey the laws that have to do with loving people by not offending them.

The rich man said he did that and Jesus told him to sell all he had and give to the poor because that is love.

Which the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy.

Good works is the law which is works of loving people which love is the fulfilling of the law.

Good works is the law.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It's very simple: The Law laid the groundwork. Now that we are no longer under Law, we look to Jesus and the Holy Spirit for guidance. The Law is a good place to start, but the law of Christ goes above and beyond the OT Law. So remembering the Law is good, but only as a point of reference. We should strive to go the extra mile. Beware of Judaizers in whatever form they may appear.

 

[Musicmaster]

It's very simple: The Law laid the groundwork. Now that we are no longer under Law, we look to Jesus and the Holy Spirit for guidance. The Law is a good place to start, but the law of Christ goes above and beyond the OT Law. So remembering the Law is good, but only as a point of reference. We should strive to go the extra mile. Beware of Judaizers in whatever form they may appear.

Yes, it they who convey the message of salvation loss and retention along with a massive array of other warped and twisted doctrines steeped in replacement theology.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Good works is the law.

Paul said we do not do away with the law but we live up to it and the law is spiritual which always have to be obeyed laws of love, moral laws.

Which the 2 greatest laws are love God and people.

Blessedly, none of that leads to our salvation for none of us could live up to it to the level of sealing our salvation by way of our own efforts. We can earn rewards by way of attempting to adhere to the Law and to those things Christ preached to stiff-necked and Christ-rejecting Israel, but those things only go toward reward. That's what's so wonderful about what the Lord did for us, in that our salvation is based upon His completed works rather than our grossly inferior works.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allow the Spirit to lead them then they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh therefore they are not under the law which the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

The Law cannot touch us who are in the body of Christ because we are already dead to the Law, no matter what sins we may commit in the lives of our salvation.

Paul said we live up to the law and do not void out the law by faith.

For the law is spiritual, holy, just, and good.

And yet we are dead to it in the arena of His perfect Justice.

Jesus told the rich man to inherit eternal life to obey the laws that have to do with loving people by not offending them.

Yes, He said that to a people who, at that time, were still under the Law.

Good works is the law which is works of loving people which love is the fulfilling of the law.

Good works is the law.

Yes, all our good works are indeed paralleled within the Law. It is by them that we store up treasure in Heaven given that the sealing of Holy upon us for our salvation was accomplished only by Christ rather than our efforts.

MM

 

[Soyeong]

It's very simple: The Law laid the groundwork. Now that we are no longer under Law,

In Romans 5-8, Paul described the Law of God as being something that is the good that he wanted to do and the law of sin as being something that was hindering him from doing the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over him, which is clearly not describing something that is the good that Paul wanted to do, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin.

we look to Jesus and the Holy Spirit for guidance. The Law is a good place to start,

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so it is contradictory to look to Jesus instead of looking to the example that he set for us to follow or to look the Spirit instead of looking to God's instructions for how to walk in the Spirit. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

but the law of Christ goes above and beyond the OT Law.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so I see no justification for taking the position that the Law of Christ goes above and beyond what Christ taught and every word that comes from the mouth of God.

So remembering the Law is good, but only as a point of reference. We should strive to go the extra mile. Beware of Judaizers in whatever form they may appear.

Even if it were true that the Law of Christ raised the bar above and beyond the Law of God, then at the very least we should still obey the Law of God plus whatever else the Law of Christ raised the bar to. The problem that Paul had with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiiles how to follow Christ's example but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become justified.

 

[GWH]

Many today like to divide up the scriptures as if there were some differentiable distinction between the Law and good works that one may do.

Where it's true that the Mosaic Law (Torah), prescribes commandments, rituals and ethical duties given to Israel, many of its requirements overlap with what modern Christians call "good works" — otherwise defined as morally commendable actions, charity, justice, and even some religious observance. Let's look at some comparisons.

Mosaic law: Establish courts, judges, impartial justice; prohibit perverting justice, taking bribes, favoring the poor or rich; protect the rights of strangers, widows, orphans (e.g., Deut. 16:18–20; Ex. 23:1–9; Deut. 24:17–18).

Modern good works: Supporting rule of law, volunteering legal aid, voting for just policies, refusing corruption, defending marginalized groups and many, many other acts of benevolence toward others by way of physical actions or verbal ministry toward, etc.


Mosaic law: Leave gleanings for the poor, forgive debts in the sabbatical year, provide for widows, orphans, strangers; mandated tithes for Levites and the needy (e.g., Lev. 19:9–10; Deut. 15:1–11; Deut. 14:28–29).

Modern good works: Charitable giving, food banks, debt relief advocacy, social-welfare support, volunteering with shelters.


Mosaic law: Love the stranger because Israelites were strangers in Egypt; specific protections for sojourners (e.g., Ex. 22:21; Lev. 19:34).

Modern good works: Refugee assistance, immigrant legal services, community integration programs, welcoming neighbors.


Mosaic law: Honest weights and measures; prohibitions on stealing, false weights, fraud, and exploiting workers (e.g., Lev. 19:13; Deut. 25:13–16; James 5:4 reflects this ethic in the New Testament).

Modern good works: Fair-trade practices, consumer protection, paying living wages, ethical business conduct.


Mosaic law: Timely pay for workers, permit rest on Sabbaths, kind treatment of animals, rest for the land (e.g., Deut. 24:14–15; Ex. 23:12; Deut. 5:12–15; Deut. 22:6–7).

Modern good works: Labor rights advocacy, humane farming practices, environmental stewardship, employee protections.


Mosaic law: Sabbaths, festivals, sacrificial system, and purity laws structured communal life, rest, and redistribution (e.g., Lev. 23; Deut. 16).

Modern good works: Community-building through religious worship, volunteering in congregational programs, organizing relief during festivals/holidays.


Mosaic law: Laws encouraging mercy (e.g., cities of refuge for manslayers, provisions for restitution, Jubilee principles) (e.g., Num. 35; Lev. 25).

Modern good works: Restorative justice programs, mediation, reparations or restitution efforts.


Mosaic law: Prohibitions against murder; injunctions to protect life (e.g., Ex. 20:13; laws about accidental harm and restitution).

Modern good works: Violence prevention, emergency aid, healthcare access, child protection services.


Mosaic law: Commands to teach children the statutes and covenant (e.g., Deut. 6:4–9).

Modern good works: Civic education, parenting programs, religious instruction, mentoring youth.


Mosaic law: Almsgiving, ritual purity, prayer, and acts required by law that express religious devotion (e.g., Deut. 14:22–29; Lev. 6:2–7).

Modern good works: Public acts of faith-based service, community volunteering motivated by conscience.



So, the next time someone tries to foist some sort of false barrier between the Mosaic Law and modern good works, just remind them of the many Mosaic commandments that clearly function as structured, communal expressions of what contemporary ethics calls "good works"; justice, charity, hospitality, honesty, care for the vulnerable and community practices that promote social cohesion and welfare. The difference is largely institutional and theological — Mosaic Law binds these as covenantal obligations within a religious-legal system. Today they are often framed as voluntary moral duties, social policy or faith-motivated charity, etc.

This is ample reason as to why the statements made by some are absolutely false where they try to stand on the idea that modern good works are independent of the Mosaic Law and legalism when trying to apply them in support of good works being required to retain one's salvation, and especially to earn it by any measure. This makes it absurd the statement some stand upon when claiming, "Yeah, we're saved by grace through faith...but ya gotta live it!"

What rubbish!

MM

In the NT "Law" refers to the OT belief that salvation is earned by obeying the laws promulgated in the Torah,
and "good works" refers to godly or loving fruit reflecting the HS in believers' hearts (Eph. 2:8-10, Gal. 5:22-23, Rom. 5:5, 8:9).

 

[Musicmaster]

Generally speaking, if we dare consider the difference between legalism and good works:

Legalism makes obedience the means of earning acceptance or status before God and substitutes external rule-following for a heart changed by grace.

Doing good works flows from faith and gratitude in a saving work already accomplished by the Lord within the individual.

Good works are empowered by the Spirit, and point to love of God and neighbor rather than to self-justification.

Legalism is rooted in the fear of punishment, desires praise and is driven by the need to prove worth.

Good works are rooted in gratitude, love, obedience out of relationship with God and on the basis of love.

MM

 

[Soyeong]

Generally speaking, if we dare consider the difference between legalism and good works:

Legalism makes obedience the means of earning acceptance or status before God and substitutes external rule-following for a heart changed by grace.

Doing good works flows from faith and gratitude in a saving work already accomplished by the Lord within the individual.

Good works are empowered by the Spirit, and point to love of God and neighbor rather than to self-justification.

Legalism is rooted in the fear of punishment, desires praise and is driven by the need to prove worth.

Good works are rooted in gratitude, love, obedience out of relationship with God and on the basis of love.

MM

The issue is that the works can be obeyed for a variety of reasons, such as in order to earn a wage, in order to embody our faith, in order to embody our love, in order to build a relationship, in order to experience a gift, in order to look good in the eyes of others, in order to take revenge, in order to repair the world, and so forth, and some of these are correct reasons for obeying the Law of God while others are incorrect. Legalism is obeying the Law of God for incorrect reasons without regard to its intention. While the Law of God was never given as a way of justifying ourselves as the result, the faith by which we are being saved from not being a doer of the Law is also embodied through being a doer of it. Being a doer of the Law of God is intrinsically part of the experience of being saved from not being a doer of it, not something that we do in gratitude in a saving work already accomplished by the Lord within the individual.

 

[Musicmaster]

The issue is that the works can be obeyed for a variety of reasons, such as in order to earn a wage, in order to embody our faith, in order to embody our love, in order to build a relationship, in order to experience a gift, in order to look good in the eyes of others, in order to take revenge, in order to repair the world, and so forth, and some of these are correct reasons for obeying the Law of God while others are incorrect. Legalism is obeying the Law of God for incorrect reasons without regard to its intention. While the Law of God was never given as a way of justifying ourselves as the result, the faith by which we are being saved from not being a doer of the Law is also embodied through being a doer of it. Being a doer of the Law of God is intrinsically part of the experience of being saved from not being a doer of it, not something that we do in gratitude in a saving work already accomplished by the Lord within the individual.

What you call "obey" also has another term for expression, which is "motivation." In other words, the reasoned motivation for the good work. The wrong motivation held to by some is when they cast salvation itself into the arena of works. Where I agree that salvation is the rightful foundation and source of good works, the flow is not bi-directional. Good works do not feed into our salvation, but rather our salvation feeds into good works:

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2, 10
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The shed Blood of Christ is the one thing that cannot be coupled with works given that our salvation is a completed work tinto which no other work can feed.

So, yes, we are in total agreement for the necessity of works as the evidence of our salvation and of our faith. However, even if our faith falls into the realm of unbelief, we are still saved. Why there are those out there who have a problem with this, I don't understand. That level of jealousy is astoundingly lacking in faith in the One whose faithfulness toward us is the basis of our salvation, not the other way around. It's about His faithfulness, not ours. We all sin daily, thus the waning of our faithfulness toward Him.

So, I'm hoping we can dispense with the repeated agreement about the importance of good works. Those who don't do good works, but rather continue to dabble in the pleasures of sin after salvation, they are storing up that which will burn in the fires of testing before the Lord, and yet will still be saved:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

All the good works we may do in this life is encapsulated within the Law of Moses, and therefore the reason works cannot save anyone nor can they retain one's salvation, for the Law should never be the basis for salvation and/or its retention.

When the legalists out there try to couple works with salvation as a bi-directional flow, they are perpetrating a dichotomy pitted against the scriptures for what they actually say, just like them trying to perpetrate the false mix of grace with works. They simply will not coexist together in relation to salvation, which is the Divine wedge driven between the two states.

MM

 

[Soyeong]

What you call "obey" also has another term for expression, which is "motivation." In other words, the reasoned motivation for the good work. The wrong motivation held to by some is when they cast salvation itself into the arena of works. Where I agree that salvation is the rightful foundation and source of good works, the flow is not bi-directional. Good works do not feed into our salvation, but rather our salvation feeds into good works:

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so there is an intrinsic connection between our gift of being saved from not being a doer of the Law of God and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to understand which motivations are the correct connection. Good works do not feed into our salvation and vice versa, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of God's gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not so that we would have something to boast about, but in order to teach us how to have faith.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not to provide a means of earning our righteousness as the result though it is also true that only the doers of the Law of God will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there is a correct reason for why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The fact that we can't earn our justification as even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God makes it that much more true that we can't become justified by works of the law.

Galatians 3:2, 10
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ...

Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not in order to provide a means of receiving the Spirit as the result.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do all of the things in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that the way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why all who rely on works of the law instead comes under that curse.

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not in order to provide a means of earning our salvation as the result. In Ephesians 2:10, we are never creations in Christ to do good works, so God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works in obedience to His law is part of His gift of salvation. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. So how can you claim that grace and works don't mix in regard to salvation without denying the truth of those verses?

The shed Blood of Christ is the one thing that cannot be coupled with works given that our salvation is a completed work tinto which no other work can feed.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for for doing good works, so one of the reasons that God gave His law is to teach us how to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

So, yes, we are in total agreement for the necessity of works as the evidence of our salvation and of our faith. However, even if our faith falls into the realm of unbelief, we are still saved. Why there are those out there who have a problem with this, I don't understand. That level of jealousy is astoundingly lacking in faith in the One whose faithfulness toward us is the basis of our salvation, not the other way around. It's about His faithfulness, not ours. We all sin daily, thus the waning of our faithfulness toward Him.

So, I'm hoping we can dispense with the repeated agreement about the importance of good works. Those who don't do good works, but rather continue to dabble in the pleasures of sin after salvation, they are storing up that which will burn in the fires of testing before the Lord, and yet will still be saved:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

All the good works we may do in this life is encapsulated within the Law of Moses, and therefore the reason works cannot save anyone nor can they retain one's salvation, for the Law should never be the basis for salvation and/or its retention.

When the legalists out there try to couple works with salvation as a bi-directional flow, they are perpetrating a dichotomy pitted against the scriptures for what they actually say, just like them trying to perpetrate the false mix of grace with works. They simply will not coexist together in relation to salvation, which is the Divine wedge driven between the two states.

MM

Being a doer of good works are not evidence for salvation and our faith, but is what our salvation and faith look like. If someone is not a doer of the Law of God, then how can it also be true that Jesus is saving them from not being a doer of it?

 

[Musicmaster]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so there is an intrinsic connection between our gift of being saved from not being a doer of the Law of God and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to understand which motivations are the correct connection. Good works do not feed into our salvation and vice versa, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of God's gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).


Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not so that we would have something to boast about, but in order to teach us how to have faith.


Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not to provide a means of earning our righteousness as the result though it is also true that only the doers of the Law of God will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there is a correct reason for why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it as the result also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).


The fact that we can't earn our justification as even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God makes it that much more true that we can't become justified by works of the law.


Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not in order to provide a means of receiving the Spirit as the result.


According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do all of the things in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that the way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why all who rely on works of the law instead comes under that curse.


Indeed, the reason why God gave His law was not in order to provide a means of earning our salvation as the result. In Ephesians 2:10, we are never creations in Christ to do good works, so God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works in obedience to His law is part of His gift of salvation. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. So how can you claim that grace and works don't mix in regard to salvation without denying the truth of those verses?


In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for for doing good works, so one of the reasons that God gave His law is to teach us how to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).


Being a doer of good works are not evidence for salvation and our faith, but is what our salvation and faith look like. If someone is not a doer of the Law of God, then how can it also be true that Jesus is saving them from not being a doer of it?

The habit in modern Christianity is to leave behind the instruction for us to rightly divide the word of truth. Jesus and the twelve did not preach the exact same gospel of salvation as was given to Paul by Jesus after the fall of Israel. That is the foundation to the confusions you're having with what I've been saying. You're overlooking the items I said that I agree with you on, but you're also perpetrating falsehoods in application to us today.

MM

 

[Soyeong]

The habit in modern Christianity is to leave behind the instruction for us to rightly divide the word of truth. Jesus and the twelve did not preach the exact same gospel of salvation as was given to Paul by Jesus after the fall of Israel. That is the foundation to the confusions you're having with what I've been saying. You're overlooking the items I said that I agree with you on, but you're also perpetrating falsehoods in application to us today.

MM

Rightly dividing the word of truth does not involve interpreting in a way that turns it against following truth and the Law of Moses is truth (Psalm 119:142). In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23).

 

[Thaddeus]

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over him,

I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12;Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom7:7-13

 

[Soyeong]

I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12;Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom7:7-13

Paul was going back and forth contrasting the Law of God as the good that he wanted to do with the law of sin that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so verses that refer to something that wouldn't make sense for Paul to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God while verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin.

For example, in Romans 7:5, Paul refers to a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and it would be absurd for Paul to delight in doing that, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 7:6, it speaks about being released from a law that held captive us to sin and it would again be absurd for Paul to delight in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive (Romans 7:23). In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, such as with the command against coveting. In Romans 7:8, it is the law of sin that is taking the opportunity through the Law of God to cause coveting to increase and sin would be dead apart from the law of sin. In Romans 7:9-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it is not that which is good that brought death to him but that it is the law of sin working death in him through that which is good.

 

[Thaddeus]

Paul was going back and forth contrasting the Law of God as the good that he wanted to do with the law of sin that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so verses that refer to something that wouldn't make sense for Paul to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God while verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin.

For example, in Romans 7:5, Paul refers to a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and it would be absurd for Paul to delight in doing that, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 7:6, it speaks about being released from a law that held captive us to sin and it would again be absurd for Paul to delight in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive (Romans 7:23). In Romans 7:7, Paul said that the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, such as with the command against coveting. In Romans 7:8, it is the law of sin that is taking the opportunity through the Law of God to cause coveting to increase and sin would be dead apart from the law of sin. In Romans 7:9-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it is not that which is good that brought death to him but that it is the law of sin working death in him through that which is good.

Of course Saul delighted in obeying the law/TC
However, as you quoted from verse 5, Paul stated a law that stirs up sinfull passions in us.
He went on to give an example of a law that stirred up sinfull passions in him:
for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.
It does not mean you want the law to stir up sinfull passions in you. A person may well delight in God's laws but at the same time find they stir up sinfull passions in them:

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17;Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18;For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19;For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20;Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21;I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22;For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23;But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 

[Soyeong]

Of course Saul delighted in obeying the law/TC
However, as you quoted from verse 5, Paul stated a law that stirs up sinfull passions in us.
He went on to give an example of a law that stirred up sinfull passions in him:
for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.
It does not mean you want the law to stir up sinfull passions in you. A person may well delight in God's laws but at the same time find they stir up sinfull passions in them:

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17;Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18;For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19;For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20;Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21;I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22;For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23;But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death causes sin to increase and is a law that is sinful, however, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and when our sin is revealed then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease. So the law of sin and the Law of God lead us in opposite directions. Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which held him captive, which was waging war with the law of his mind, and which he served with his flesh. So Paul made a stark contrast between the Law of God the law of sin, but you are conflating them.