Reconciled to God while enemies !

[Roger316]

False, Reconciliation in Rom 5:10 is completed, you short changing it and the death of Christ by saying it was made only possible.

I argued that Reconciliation is a two-way, relational thing, not a state of being or status. If you deny this, you are denying reality. You short-change the miracle of salvation by ignoring the facts of the matter.

Using your terminology, I maintain that Romans 5:10 is "objective reconciliation." According to this category, objective reconciliation is the divine initiative in which God, through Christ’s death, establishes the conditions for peace with humanity apart from their repentance or faith. That's objective reconciliation.

In Romans 5, Paul is not addressing subjective reconciliation, which is the personal, relational restoration that occurs only when a person responds to God’s initiative through repentance and faith.

Reconciled is aorist passive indicative. The aorist is a simple completed past tense and the indicative is a statement of fact. You are saying it isnt a statement of fact, but possible, Thats false teaching

The aorist tells you when something happened, not what kind of thing it is. The aorist in Romans 5:10 refers to God's completed act of making peace possible. It does not refer to the completed restoration itself. Paul himself proves this by pleading: "Be reconciled to God."

Saying reconciliation in Romans 5:10 is not inevitable does not diminish it. it is simply to say that "God's act does not override human agency. That is not diminishing reconciliation. That is preserving the relational nature of reconciliation.

If reconciliation were inevitable, then:

• repentance would be unnecessary
• faith would be unnecessary
• Paul’s appeals would be meaningless
• relationship would be replaced by determinism

Your reading actually diminishes reconciliation by turning it into a mechanical transaction.

 

[Roger316]

I have discussed many things in posts you probably havent even read. If you have read them, you see I have covered it. And I have more to come that testify to the truth.

Are you able to discuss the topic or not? Maybe you just heard someone else teach it and you like what they said?

 

[brightfame52]

I argued that Reconciliation is a two-way, relational thing,

Yeah but you speak against the truth in Rom 5:10 Thats not a possible reconciliation.

 

[brightfame52]

Using your terminology, I maintain that Romans 5:10 is "objective reconciliation

Yes, but its not a possible objective reconciliation. So is it possible or a completed fact ?

 

[Roger316]

Yeah but you speak against the truth in Rom 5:10 Thats not a possible reconciliation.

Where does Paul argue that reconciliation is inevitable? He doesn't. You are adding that part.

 

[Roger316]

Yes, but its not a possible objective reconciliation. So is it possible or a completed fact ?

Objective reconciliation remains contingent until someone responds to the call or summons to reconcile. If a person obeys the summons and reconciles with God, then the reconciliation becomes subjective.

 

[Magenta]

My Portion Forever

 

[brightfame52]

In Romans 5, Paul is not addressing subjective reconciliation

Actually the verse does address it, because it guarantees the reconciled shall be saved by His Life, that's subjective reconciliation. So Christ is 100% responsible for reconciliation of the 2 parties.

I explained to you already that Christ by His death brings them He died for to God subjectively 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Peter again writes 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 ;For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

By His Death, bearing our sins, we become dead to sin, in order to subjectively live unto righteousness, by His death we were healed,

we had went astray, but are now returned. The word retuned is the greek word ἐπιστρέφω and its in the passive voice and it means:

to cause to return, to bring back, convert

1. to the love and obedience of God

The subjects were acted upon to conversion

So their subjective experience in conversion was caused by the healing stripes of Christs death, so His death is responsible for both objective and subjective reconciliation to God. He caused them to live unto righteousness by His death

I know you will reject this, but I wanted others to see this. May Christ be Glorified

 

[brightfame52]

Where does Paul argue that reconciliation is inevitable? He doesn't. You are adding that part.

Paul penned Rom 5:10 and you deny it.

 

[Roger316]

Actually the verse does address it, because it guarantees the reconciled shall be saved by His Life, that's subjective reconciliation.

No, subjective reconciliation is when a person obeys the summons to be reconciled with God. Salvation is a different subject.

So Christ is 100% responsible for reconciliation of the 2 parties.

Not unless the person actually and in fact reconciles with God.

I explained to you already that Christ by His death brings them He died for to God subjectively 1 Pet 3:18

Peter is addressing Christian suffering, not reconciliation. Peter's point is clear. If Jesus suffered for his views, then as his disciples, we should expect the same treatment.

So their subjective experience in conversion was caused by the healing stripes of Christs death, so His death is responsible for both objective and subjective reconciliation to God. He caused them to live unto righteousness by His death

I know you will reject this, but I wanted others to see this. May Christ be Glorified

Of course, I reject it because it isn't true. Objective reconciliation is what God did through Jesus Christ. Subjective reconciliation is our existential response it.

 

[Roger316]

Paul penned Rom 5:10 and you deny it.

Rediculous. I reject your interpretation. That isn't the same thing as rejecting Romans.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

From https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2co/5/1/t_conc_1083020​

​

Definition of Imperative​

​

Corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.​

​

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, if the hearer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, reconciliation between God and the hearer takes place.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

No they are already saved/reconciled and regenerated

If they were "already saved/reconciled and regenerated", there would be no need for the imperative command "be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20).

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

False, Reconciliation in Rom 5:10 is completed, you short changing it and the death of Christ by saying it was made only possible. Reconciled is aorist passive indicative. The aorist is a simple completed past tense and the indicative is a statement of fact. You are saying it isnt a statement of fact, but possible, Thats false teaching

There are two uses of the word "reconciled" in Romans 5:10:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

First use: "were reconciled" ... this occurred when God established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son. God does not change.

Second use: "being reconciled" ... this occurs during the lifetime of the believer ... the one reconciled ... at the time he/she believes, hence the use of the words "being reconciled" by the translators:

Romans 4:20-5:2

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness]was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

When a person believes "on Him Who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead", he or she is then "justified by faith" because he or she has changed his or her position and is now in alignment (katallassō) with what God has stated concerning His Son.

.

 

[brightfame52]

No, subjective reconciliation is when a person obeys the summons to be reconciled with God. Salvation is a different subject.

again, when the reconciled by His death shall be saved by His Life, thats full reconciliation, both objective and subjective. Do you deny that the reconciled shall be saved ? Look at the verse Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

 

[brightfame52]

Not unless the person actually and in fact reconciles with God.

There is no not unless, its as sure as Gods word says it is. The shalls of God are sure

Peter is addressing Christian suffering,

doesnt matter, it says what it says, Christ death brings us to God

Of course, I reject it

I know you do, because you reject the accomplishment of the Death of Christ, in order to exalt your freewill

 

[brightfame52]

If they were "already saved/reconciled and regenerated", there would be no need for the imperative command "be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20).

Yes it is need, they are merely being caused to lay hold of their reconciliation already accomplished by Christ. There is always need to hear the truths of God, and grow in grace and knowledge and be confirmed in the faith. Thats why Paul writes to the same 1 Cor 1:8

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

First use: "were reconciled" ... this occurred when God established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son. God does not change.

Wrong Rom 5:10 says it occurred at..by the death of His Son. And all mankind isnt reconciled to God, only that portion which shall be saved by Hos Life. Not all mankind going to be saved by His Life unless you are a proponent of the error of universalism.

Now Rom 5:10 does not say God reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son, so you putting your twist in there, a sign of a false teacher.

 

[brightfame52]

Those Reconciled have Imputed Righteousness !

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now this Reconciliation solely by Christ's Death or Blood is by Atonement, in other words Reconciliation is by Atonement through Christ's Blood.

Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The word Reconciliation here is the hebrew word kaphar d means:


to cover, purge [Heb 1:3], make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

to cover over, pacify, propitiate

2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for

So Paul writes after the Psalmist Rom 4:7

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. See Ps 32:1

Now notice what's next in Dan 9:24 following Reconciliation of Iniquity, its to bring in Everlasting Righteousness !

This is the Righteousness of God imputed to all for whom Christ was made sin for 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is that Everlasting Righteousness that Christ hath wrought out and Established for all them He was made a sin offering for, an Atonement for !

Ps 119:142

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Law Here is likely the Gospel !

For that Righteousness of God that was established by Making Reconciliation of Iniquity, Atonement, the Covering of Sin, that Righteousness is Revealed to all the Beneficiaries by the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So the Reconciled World of 2 Cor 5:19 and those Reconciled to God by the Death of His Son even while they are Enemies, have all been covered by and clothed with that Everlasting Righteousness by Imputation, and that before they know about it or believe into it ! 3

 

[Hakawaka]

Actually the verse does address it, because it guarantees the reconciled shall be saved by His Life, that's subjective reconciliation. So Christ is 100% responsible for reconciliation of the 2 parties.

I explained to you already that Christ by His death brings them He died for to God subjectively 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Peter again writes 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 ;For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

By His Death, bearing our sins, we become dead to sin, in order to subjectively live unto righteousness, by His death we were healed,

we had went astray, but are now returned. The word retuned is the greek word ἐπιστρέφω and its in the passive voice and it means:

to cause to return, to bring back, convert

1. to the love and obedience of God

The subjects were acted upon to conversion

So their subjective experience in conversion was caused by the healing stripes of Christs death, so His death is responsible for both objective and subjective reconciliation to God. He caused them to live unto righteousness by His death

I know you will reject this, but I wanted others to see this. May Christ be Glorified

Wow. I urge everyone to check out Romans 5:10. What he is saying IS correct. I checked it out and have to admit my error.

 

[Hakawaka]

Those Reconciled have Imputed Righteousness !

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now this Reconciliation solely by Christ's Death or Blood is by Atonement, in other words Reconciliation is by Atonement through Christ's Blood.

Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The word Reconciliation here is the hebrew word kaphar d means:


to cover, purge [Heb 1:3], make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

to cover over, pacify, propitiate

2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for

So Paul writes after the Psalmist Rom 4:7

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. See Ps 32:1

Now notice what's next in Dan 9:24 following Reconciliation of Iniquity, its to bring in Everlasting Righteousness !

This is the Righteousness of God imputed to all for whom Christ was made sin for 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is that Everlasting Righteousness that Christ hath wrought out and Established for all them He was made a sin offering for, an Atonement for !

Ps 119:142

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Law Here is likely the Gospel !

For that Righteousness of God that was established by Making Reconciliation of Iniquity, Atonement, the Covering of Sin, that Righteousness is Revealed to all the Beneficiaries by the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So the Reconciled World of 2 Cor 5:19 and those Reconciled to God by the Death of His Son even while they are Enemies, have all been covered by and clothed with that Everlasting Righteousness by Imputation, and that before they know about it or believe into it ! 3

This kinda proves "limited atonement" of the TULIP doesnt it? IF this can happen prior to faith, then thats it. Because if this was done for everyone then the only conclusion would be universalism?