Adventists, Ellen G. White, failed prophecies and scripture

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As you are itching for a response:

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Rom14:5
No, I am not “itching” for a response… I am attempting to get an answer from you.

The old covenant was in “operation.” What does that mean? The 10 commandments were never done away with and Jesus never said that His 4th amendment was no longer to be obeyed and honored…

Jesus said in different places of the gospels that His commandments are to be obeyed… no qualifications on the 4th. “He loves me who keeps my commandments.” And many more.

Those verses that He spoke did not require us to interpret or were meant to be confusing - In Daniel he specifically tells us the little horn will “think to change times and laws.”

Where did all of this nonsense come from ? Hasn’t the little horn (papacy) changed the first 4 of God’s 10 commandments? He has eliminated the second and divided the 10th in two to keep the number of commandments as 10.
 
No, I am not “itching” for a response… I am attempting to get an answer from you.

The old covenant was in “operation.” What does that mean? The 10 commandments were never done away with and Jesus never said that His 4th amendment was no longer to be obeyed and honored…

Jesus said in different places of the gospels that His commandments are to be obeyed… no qualifications on the 4th. “He loves me who keeps my commandments.” And many more.

Those verses that He spoke did not require us to interpret or were meant to be confusing - In Daniel he specifically tells us the little horn will “think to change times and laws.”

Where did all of this nonsense come from ? Hasn’t the little horn (papacy) changed the first 4 of God’s 10 commandments? He has eliminated the second and divided the 10th in two to keep the number of commandments as 10.
If you love me keep my commandments
That refers to Jesus teaching in the gospels, which are examples of loving your neighbour:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Jesus taught under the old covenant, but also looked forward to the new one
Paul expounded on the new covenant, I have quoted to you, without response what he stated concerning the 'ten commandments'
 
If you love me keep my commandments
That refers to Jesus teaching in the gospels, which are examples of loving your neighbour:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

Jesus taught under the old covenant, but also looked forward to the new one
Paul expounded on the new covenant, I have quoted to you, without response what he stated concerning the 'ten commandments'
So now you are trying to tell me the 10 commandments are examples of loving your neighbor?

What about the first four commandments? What do they teach us?
 
People who relentlessly say:
You must obey the Ten Commandments' only live with a watered down version of them
The ten commandments are an inflexible law: Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them
Hence Paul states they are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation
 
People who relentlessly say:
You must obey the Ten Commandments' only live with a watered down version of them
The ten commandments are an inflexible law: Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them
Hence Paul stata#es they are the letter that kills, the ministry of death

Okay, if they are an inflexible law, then:
1) why did the RCC change them?
2) why are they not to be obeyed- after the cross?
3) does the fact they are impossible for any man to keep negate Jesus’ command to obey them?
4) if the commandments are watered down - by whom? How? What does that even mean?
5) are we not saved “by faith alone?” However, Jesus also told us to keep His commandments… why would He say that then?
 
Okay, if they are an inflexible law, then:
1) why did the RCC change them?
2) why are they not to be obeyed- after the cross?
3) does the fact they are impossible for any man to keep negate Jesus’ command to obey them?
4) if the commandments are watered down - by whom? How? What does that even mean?
5) are we not saved “by faith alone?” However, Jesus also told us to keep His commandments… why would He say that then?
2&3 have previously been covered.
Let's take 4
Im sure, if a person believes they must observe a set Saturday sabbath, they would not believe they can enter Heaven by not following it. Because, to them, they would not be obeying one of the ten commandments
However, the tenth commandment can be transgressed without any outward action being required, it relates to what goes on, on the inside of man
So, would a person who insists the ten commandments must be obeyed view the tenth one the same as the fourth, if they did not obey it they could not expect to enter Heaven?
 
2&3 have previously been covered.
Let's take 4
Im sure, if a person believes they must observe a set Saturday sabbath, they would not believe they can enter Heaven by not following it. Because, to them, they would not be obeying one of the ten commandments
However, the tenth commandment can be transgressed without any outward action being required, it relates to what goes on, on the inside of man
So, would a person who insists the ten commandments must be obeyed view the tenth one the same as the fourth, if they did not obey it they could not expect to enter Heaven?
Well, I do thank you for all of your responses! I appreciate your time and have no doubt you have love for our Lord and Savior. That is the most important take away from this exchange. Best wishes always!
 
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Perhaps you might offer your interpretations on 9:24-27? Thanks
I think AI provides a good analysis of Daniel 9:24-27.

That's an important interpretation to consider, because many scholars see at least a partial fulfillment of Daniel's "abomination" language in the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes during the second century BC.


In about 167 BC, Antiochus outlawed aspects of Jewish worship, desecrated the temple in Jerusalem, and set up pagan worship there. The temple was later cleansed and rededicated in 164 BC, which is commemorated by the Hanukkah.

The Maccabees were a group of Jewish rebel warriors who successfully fought against the Seleucid (Syrian-Greek) Empire in the 2nd century BCE. Led by the priestly Hasmonean family—most notably Mattathias and his son Judas Maccabeus—they drove out occupying forces, restored the desecrated Jerusalem Temple, and established an independent Jewish kingdom.

John 10:22-23
At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.

The reason many connect Antiochus to Daniel is that Daniel 8 explicitly describes a ruler who:


"magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away" (Daniel 8:11)

and


"they shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." (Daniel 11:31)

Daniel 11, in particular, tracks the conflicts between the Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms with remarkable detail up to the time of Antiochus IV. Because of that, many readers see Daniel 11:31 as a direct reference to Antiochus' desecration of the temple.


The question then becomes whether Daniel 9:27 is also referring to Antiochus.


There are several difficulties with making Daniel 9:27 exclusively about Antiochus:


  1. The chronology of the seventy weeks.

    Daniel 9 presents a specific seventy-weeks framework tied to the coming of the Messiah:

    "unto the Messiah the Prince" (Daniel 9:25)
    "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" (Daniel 9:26)
    Antiochus lived before Jesus, whereas Daniel 9 seems to move toward the appearance and death of the Messiah.
  2. Jesus spoke of the abomination as still significant in the future.

    In Matthew 24:

    "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." (Matthew 24:15)
    Jesus spoke nearly two centuries after Antiochus. That suggests Antiochus did not exhaust the meaning of Daniel's prophecy.
  3. Daniel itself may use typology.

    Antiochus can be understood as a pattern or foreshadowing of later desolating rulers. Many interpreters see:
    • Antiochus → near fulfillment.
    • Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 → further fulfillment.
    • A final end-times opponent of God → ultimate fulfillment.

From a purely scriptural perspective, Daniel 8 and 11 fit Antiochus very naturally. Daniel 9 is less straightforward because of its strong Messianic context.


So one common way of harmonizing the passages is:


  • Daniel 8 and 11: Antiochus IV is the primary fulfillment.
  • Daniel 9:27 points principally to Christ (or, in another view, a future antichrist).
  • Antiochus serves as an earlier historical example of the "abomination of desolation" motif that later prophecies and Jesus' own teaching build upon.

If your approach is that Daniel 9 is centered on the atoning work of the Messiah—which fits with the emphasis of verses 24–26—then Antiochus is probably better understood as fulfilling aspects of Daniel 8 and 11 rather than being the main referent of Daniel 9:27. The strongest argument for that conclusion is that Daniel 9's timeline explicitly climaxes in "Messiah" being "cut off," a feature that does not naturally fit Antiochus.
 
So the 10 Commandments only applied to the Jews?

The Jews were indeed in a covenant with God. God revealed Himself to Abraham and was it not God’s desire that Israel was supposed to be the priest to the world? Were they given the responsibility to preach the One true God and His laws? Does that tell us the 10 Commandments are / would be temporary or they would not apply to the Gentiles?

Did the cross do away with His laws or just the “ordinance’s” found in Leviticus? Were they the “shadows” of the coming Messiah?

Just a few questions based on your 3 brief statements above….
The law which includes the ten words were only given to Israel.

Psalm 147:19–20
He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel. He has not dealt thus with any other nation;
they do not know his rules
.

Deuteronomy 4:7–8
Moses asks what other great nation has statutes and righteous rules as close to them as the law being set before Israel.

Exodus 19:5–6
The covenant was designed to set Israel apart as a "kingdom of priests" and a "holy nation" distinct from all surrounding people.

So the answer is yes and the law was only given to Israel.

The Jews never associated with the Gentiles (dogs).

Acts 10:28
And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him.

The Jewish people never had evangelists that would preach the law to Gentiles.

The law itself was temporary.

Galatians 3:24-25
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor (the law).

Your not under the law but under grace.

Only in the cross is our salvation.

Boast in Jesus and forget the rest.
 
I think AI provides a good analysis of Daniel 9:24-27.

That's an important interpretation to consider, because many scholars see at least a partial fulfillment of Daniel's "abomination" language in the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes during the second century BC.


In about 167 BC, Antiochus outlawed aspects of Jewish worship, desecrated the temple in Jerusalem, and set up pagan worship there. The temple was later cleansed and rededicated in 164 BC, which is commemorated by the Hanukkah.

The Maccabees were a group of Jewish rebel warriors who successfully fought against the Seleucid (Syrian-Greek) Empire in the 2nd century BCE. Led by the priestly Hasmonean family—most notably Mattathias and his son Judas Maccabeus—they drove out occupying forces, restored the desecrated Jerusalem Temple, and established an independent Jewish kingdom.

John 10:22-23
At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.

The reason many connect Antiochus to Daniel is that Daniel 8 explicitly describes a ruler who:




and




Daniel 11, in particular, tracks the conflicts between the Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms with remarkable detail up to the time of Antiochus IV. Because of that, many readers see Daniel 11:31 as a direct reference to Antiochus' desecration of the temple.


The question then becomes whether Daniel 9:27 is also referring to Antiochus.


There are several difficulties with making Daniel 9:27 exclusively about Antiochus:


  1. The chronology of the seventy weeks.

    Daniel 9 presents a specific seventy-weeks framework tied to the coming of the Messiah:



    Antiochus lived before Jesus, whereas Daniel 9 seems to move toward the appearance and death of the Messiah.
  2. Jesus spoke of the abomination as still significant in the future.

    In Matthew 24:


    Jesus spoke nearly two centuries after Antiochus. That suggests Antiochus did not exhaust the meaning of Daniel's prophecy.
  3. Daniel itself may use typology.

    Antiochus can be understood as a pattern or foreshadowing of later desolating rulers. Many interpreters see:
    • Antiochus → near fulfillment.
    • Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 → further fulfillment.
    • A final end-times opponent of God → ultimate fulfillment.

From a purely scriptural perspective, Daniel 8 and 11 fit Antiochus very naturally. Daniel 9 is less straightforward because of its strong Messianic context.


So one common way of harmonizing the passages is:


  • Daniel 8 and 11: Antiochus IV is the primary fulfillment.
  • Daniel 9:27 points principally to Christ (or, in another view, a future antichrist).
  • Antiochus serves as an earlier historical example of the "abomination of desolation" motif that later prophecies and Jesus' own teaching build upon.

If your approach is that Daniel 9 is centered on the atoning work of the Messiah—which fits with the emphasis of verses 24–26—then Antiochus is probably better understood as fulfilling aspects of Daniel 8 and 11 rather than being the main referent of Daniel 9:27. The strongest argument for that conclusion is that Daniel 9's timeline explicitly climaxes in "Messiah" being "cut off," a feature that does not naturally fit Antiochus.
Thank you for that detailed response. And I am sure you also realize that there are probably two major interpretations for Daniel 9. And regarding chapter 11 there most likely is only one that is treated as most likely - that would be the conflicts between the Ptolemy’s and the Seleucid’s.

And there are many scholars who also accept AE to be included within the chapter 7, or 8 and especially 11 interpretations.

Yet, despite the many brilliant scholars and commentators on Daniel, there is no consensus on MOST of Daniel!

The most misinterpreted chapters in Daniel are (and we are not talking about minor prophecies, actors or events). For the most part, every scholar or commentator is a rewrite of the previous interpretations - absolutely no new scholarship in the past 100-200 years or so. Folks simply have accepted the interpretations of the past 2 centuries and add their own voice to the commentary. There must be 1000’s of the same or almost identical interpretations / commentaries out there with more each year. Nothing new! Here are the most misinterpreted chapters:

Chapter 2,
Chapter 7,
Chapter 8,
Chapter 9,
Chapter 11.
 
The law which includes the ten words were only given to Israel.

Psalm 147:19–20
He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel. He has not dealt thus with any other nation;
they do not know his rules
.

Deuteronomy 4:7–8
Moses asks what other great nation has statutes and righteous rules as close to them as the law being set before Israel.

Exodus 19:5–6
The covenant was designed to set Israel apart as a "kingdom of priests" and a "holy nation" distinct from all surrounding people.

So the answer is yes and the law was only given to Israel.

The Jews never associated with the Gentiles (dogs).

Everything above is quite true! However, it was their mission to go out to the pagan world and teach them the One true God.

The law was given to Israel as His teacher, not to keep it to themselves. That was the problem.

Acts 10:28
And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him.

The Jewish people never had evangelists that would preach the law to Gentiles.

Acts 10:28 does not mean God never intended Gentiles to hear truth from Israel. Peter is speaking about the Jewish social/religious barrier against close association with Gentiles, especially entering their homes and eating with them. But the Old Testament itself shows that Israel was meant to be a light to the nations.

Isaiah 49:6 says Israel’s calling included being “a light to the Gentiles,” so that God’s salvation would reach “unto the end of the earth.” Isaiah 56 speaks of foreigners joining themselves to the Lord. Jonah was sent to Nineveh, a Gentile city. Ruth, Rahab, Naaman, and the mixed multitude from Egypt all show Gentiles being brought near to the God of Israel.

Even Jesus said the Pharisees would “compass sea and land to make one proselyte” in Matthew 23:15. That means Jewish proselytizing to Gentiles did exist.

The law itself was temporary.

No, the law, God’s 10 commandments are NOT temporary. But the Levitical ceremonies, ordinances, sacrifices, etc., were indeed a shadow of things to come - the coming Messiah who would FULFILL them. And He also fulfilled the 10 commandments which was NOT done away with. They are NOT nailed to the cross.

They reflect the character and nature of God Himself.
Galatians 3:24-25
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith
has come, we are no longer under a tutor (the law).

Your not under the law but under grace.

Only in the cross is our salvation.

Boast in Jesus and forget the rest.

I agree that we are saved only by Christ and not by the Law. But Galatians 3:24–25 does not say the Law is meaningless. It says the Law was a tutor leading to Christ, and now that Christ has come, we are not under that tutor as a covenant system for justification.

But Paul also says, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). So grace does not erase God’s revelation. It puts the Law in its proper place.

We do not boast in the Law as our righteousness. We boast only in Christ. But we also do not “forget the rest,” because the rest testifies of Him.

God’s 10 Commandments are never removed or done away with. I can assure you that for ALL who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior will indeed be judged under the law— it will never be eliminated.

But for ALL those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior they will NOT be judged or fall under the law.
 
Here is the true difference here
Im sure, people who insist the ten commandments must be obeyed would be horrified at the thought of not observing a saturday sabbath. They would consider they could not then be entitled to enter Heaven as they, for them would be disobeying that law. But do they hold all of the ten in that high regard?
There is no watered down version of the ten commandments in the bible.
Would these people feel they could not expect to enter Heaven if they failed to obey the ten on the inside? Thoughts, desires, lusts of the flesh? Or, would they dismiss that as trivial?

When I was young, I was distraught at my faliures to obey on the inside, it left me with huge guilt, and a feeling I could not expect to enter Heaven, as I suffered from lust/impure thoughts/sexual desire, for people who were not my spouse.
So I was holding the law to the pristene level it is set at
I do not believe those who keep insisting 'you must obey the Ten Commandments, the law of thou shalt NOT, do hold the law for them to the pristene level it is set at, they must water it down for convenience, or they would be crushed
 
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Here is the true difference here
Im sure, people who insist the ten commandments must be obeyed would be horrified at the thought of not observing a saturday sabbath. They would consider they could not then be entitled to enter Heaven as they, for them would be disobeying that law. But do they hold all of the ten in that high regard?
There is no watered down version of the ten commandments in the bible.
Would these people feel they could not expect to enter Heaven if they failed to obey the ten on the inside? Thoughts, desires, lusts of the flesh? Or, would they dismiss that as trivial?

When I was young, I was distraught at my faliures to obey on the inside, it left me with huge guilt, and a feeling I could not expect to enter Heaven, as I suffered from lust/impure thoughts/sexual desire, for people who were not my spouse.
So I was holding the law to the pristene level it is set at
I do not believe those who keep insisting 'you must obey the Ten Commandments, the law of thou shalt NOT, do hold the law for them to the pristene level it is set at, they must water it down for convenience, or they would be crushed
There is absolutely no way Israel was capable of keeping His 10 commandments- not even for a long minute! Only God is capable of fulfilling them - He is perfect in every way.

Just as God revealed Himself to Israel in the Tanakh, He also revealed Himself in His Word. No one in Israel would ever claim they were capable of honoring them.

But the Messiah did come to His people and show them what it looks like to obey them completely. Every day during His ministry He was showing them His character, His perfect nature, and His laws put into practice during those 3.5 years.

He knew no one could possibly keep them… which is why He designed a plan of salvation that didn’t take away His laws, but offered a way to be seen / found to be without sin at the time of our resurrection.

God did not eliminate or water down His 10 Commandments—- the left side of this equation did not change by His coming and sacrifice on the cross.

It was the right side of this equation that changed! By accepting Jesus sacrifice for OUR sins, we will not be judged by the law.
 
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There is absolutely no way Israel was capable of keeping His 10 commandments- not even for a long minute! Only God is capable of fulfilling them - He is perfect in every way.

Just as God revealed Himself to Israel in the Tanakh, He also revealed Himself in His Word. No one in Israel would ever claim they were capable of honoring them.

But the Messiah did come to His people and show them what it looks like to obey them completely. Every day during His ministry He was showing them His character, His perfect nature, and His laws put into practice during those 3.5 years.

He knew no one could possibly keep them… which is why He designed a plan of salvation that didn’t take away His laws, but offered a way to be seen / found to be without sin at the time of our resurrection.

God did not eliminate or water down His 10 Commandments—- the left side of this equation did not change by His coming and sacrifice on the cross.

It was the right side of this equation that changed! By accepting Jesus sacrifice for OUR sins, we will not be judged by the law.
So we all transgress the letter of the ten commandments?
 
@Gideon300, I want to be sure I understand your position- are you saying the 10 commandments are done away with?

That this comes from the mouth of Jesus? Thanks.
Yes, the 10 commandments are done away with. They achieved nothing for Israel except to condemn them. And before telling me that Lord Jesus obeyed the law to the letter, no He did not. According to the Law, He should have joined the Pharisees in condemning and stoning the woman caught in adultery. He did not.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is a New Covenant, for believers who are New Creations who have New Life. The Law of Moses only requires outward conformity. This was the point of the Sermon on the Mount.

Believers are now required to live according to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. This is both incredibly difficult and could not be easier at the same time. It is difficult because deep down, believers refuse to accept that God rejects every work that does not originate with His Son. So Christians try their best, kidding themselves that they are pleasing God by at least trying.

It is easier because now it is Jesus within who is living the life that pleases God. Our place is very simple. To cooperate with the leading of the Spirit within and do as He says to do. It will never be contrary to God's will and God's righteous nature. God is not going to tell us to commit adultery or rob a bank.

Ideally, Christians should not need the written word to instruct us. But we are still in need of instruction and still programmed by the ungodly world. We should need to be told to love our wives. But the Ephesians needed to be told. And you won't find that instruction in the 10 commandments.



 
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There is absolutely no way Israel was capable of keeping His 10 commandments- not even for a long minute! Only God is capable of fulfilling them - He is perfect in every way.

Just as God revealed Himself to Israel in the Tanakh, He also revealed Himself in His Word. No one in Israel would ever claim they were capable of honoring them.

But the Messiah did come to His people and show them what it looks like to obey them completely. Every day during His ministry He was showing them His character, His perfect nature, and His laws put into practice during those 3.5 years.

He knew no one could possibly keep them… which is why He designed a plan of salvation that didn’t take away His laws, but offered a way to be seen / found to be without sin at the time of our resurrection.

God did not eliminate or water down His 10 Commandments—- the left side of this equation did not change by His coming and sacrifice on the cross.

It was the right side of this equation that changed! By accepting Jesus sacrifice for OUR sins, we will not be judged by the law.
He replaced the old with the new. Hebrews
The moral laws still define morality, but the sacrifice of the new better covenant covers the multitude of sins.
 
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Yes, the 10 commandments are done away with. They achieved nothing for Israel except to condemn them. And before telling me that Lord Jesus obeyed the law to the letter, no He did not. According to the Law, He should have joined the Pharisees in condemning and stoning the woman caught in adultery. He did not.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is a New Covenant, for believers who are New Creations who have New Life. The Law of Moses only requires outward conformity. This was the point of the Sermon on the Mount.

Believers are now required to live according to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. This is both incredibly difficult and could not be easier at the same time. It is difficult because deep down, believers refuse to accept that God rejects every work that does not originate with His Son. So Christians try their best, kidding themselves that they are pleasing God by at least trying.

It is easier because now it is Jesus within who is living the life that pleases God. Our place is very simple. To cooperate with the leading of the Spirit within and do as He says to do. It will never be contrary to God's will and God's righteous nature. God is not going to tell us to commit adultery or rob a bank.

Ideally, Christians should not need the written word to instruct us. But we are still in need of instruction and still programmed by the ungodly world. We should need to be told to love our wives. But the Ephesians needed to be told. And you won't find that instruction in the 10 commandments.



Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Thanks.
 
Well Im impressed you have readily admitted it. Most who insist you must obey the ten commandments are hesitant to.
This may not apply to you, but when people insist you must obey the ten commandments, they should add to that, they themselves transgress the letter of them. Otherwise they run the risk of crushing their brother and sister for whom Christ died.