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eternally-gratefull
Guest
so your sinless?? I will ask you like I ask alot of people. How good is good enough. Could you EVER be good enough to earn salvation (think about it before you answer) If you could never be good enough. How would anyone be good enough?
we have two senarios.
1. Never truely repented. Thus as a dog, he goes back to his own vomit.. He never was saved.
2. Prodigal son, due to circumstances in life. Or just (like the parable) decides to walk out on his own. This person never stops being the son. He will return ( I Know I was this perosn once.
finally. Why do you want to again be under the bondage of Law? Your teaching that we are again put under law. and can be saved only by not sinning. Which last I heard. No one will ever meet this demand until they are ressurected.
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Breedabie
Guest
Zilla64007, I do not agree that Finney was a Pelagian. His biography is really good, I recommend reading it.
I agree that Life in the Son and Tozer are great recommendations, though.
I agree that Life in the Son and Tozer are great recommendations, though.
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Leehen
Guest
ok here we go! Sinners prayer? Is that it? So all I have to do is say this and that, believe what I'm saying and I'm saved? No Sirs! We must Repent. Nothing has change concerning this salvation.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
After you repent
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
After the sinners prayer
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
Then comes the gift
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And Now
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Now that you have Gods spirit
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
There are More things to say concerning salvation but these things I have mentioned are basic
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
After you repent
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
After the sinners prayer
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins
Then comes the gift
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And Now
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Now that you have Gods spirit
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
There are More things to say concerning salvation but these things I have mentioned are basic
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I don't even understand what your saying. You were not clear.
Are you saying we must be baptized in water, and then not grieve the HS by sin??
If you are. You are way off base. Your adding the law and works to grace. Paul condemns adding works of ANY KIND to the gospel of Christ. If not could you explain?
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Crossfire
Guest
I believe that the best explanation of this topic can be found in Luke chapter 8 known as the parable of the sower:
Luke 8 (Amplified Bible) -
4 And when a very great throng was gathering together and people from town after town kept coming to Jesus, He said in a parable:
5 A sower went out to sow seed; and as he sowed, some fell along the traveled path and was trodden underfoot, and the birds of the air ate it up.
6And some [seed] fell on the rock, and as soon as it sprouted, it withered away because it had no moisture.
7And other [seed] fell in the midst of the thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it [off].
8And some seed fell into good soil, and grew up and yielded a crop a hundred times [as great]. As He said these things, He called out, He who has ears to hear, let him be listening and let him [b]consider and understand by hearing!
9And when His disciples asked Him the meaning of this parable,
10He said to them, To you it has been given to [come progressively to] know (to recognize and understand more strongly and clearly) the mysteries and secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that, [though] looking, they may not see; and hearing, they may not comprehend.
11Now the meaning of the parable is this: The seed is the Word of God.
12Those along the traveled road are the people who have heard; then the devil comes and carries away the message out of their hearts, that they may not believe ([c]acknowledge Me as their Savior and devote themselves to Me) and be saved [here and hereafter].
13And those upon the rock [are the people] who, when they hear [the Word], receive and welcome it with joy; but these have no root. They believe for a while, and in time of trial and temptation fall away (withdraw and stand aloof).
14And as for what fell among the thorns, these are [the people] who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked and suffocated with the anxieties and cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not ripen (come to maturity and perfection).
15But as for that [seed] in the good soil, these are [the people] who, hearing the Word, hold it fast in a just ([d]noble, virtuous) and worthy heart, and steadily bring forth fruit with patience.
16No one after he has lighted a lamp covers it with a vessel or puts it under a [dining table] couch; but he puts it on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light.
17For there is nothing hidden that shall not be disclosed, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come out into the open.
18Be careful therefore how you listen. For to him who has [spiritual knowledge] will more be given; and from him who does not have [spiritual knowledge], even what he thinks and [e]guesses and [f]supposes that he has will be taken away.
I believe that the scripture is clear, some will come to the faith yet will fall away either due to self centeredness, self preservation or simply bad doctrine. I believe that is why proper discipleship is so important that believers might become mature in their faith. Some who hold to certain doctrinal traditions might say that these people were never saved to begin with. To me it really doesn't matter if you believe that they have willingly forfeited their salvation or they were never saved to begin with, the truth is that people do walk away.
Luke 8 (Amplified Bible) -
4 And when a very great throng was gathering together and people from town after town kept coming to Jesus, He said in a parable:
5 A sower went out to sow seed; and as he sowed, some fell along the traveled path and was trodden underfoot, and the birds of the air ate it up.
6And some [seed] fell on the rock, and as soon as it sprouted, it withered away because it had no moisture.
7And other [seed] fell in the midst of the thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it [off].
8And some seed fell into good soil, and grew up and yielded a crop a hundred times [as great]. As He said these things, He called out, He who has ears to hear, let him be listening and let him [b]consider and understand by hearing!
9And when His disciples asked Him the meaning of this parable,
10He said to them, To you it has been given to [come progressively to] know (to recognize and understand more strongly and clearly) the mysteries and secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that, [though] looking, they may not see; and hearing, they may not comprehend.
11Now the meaning of the parable is this: The seed is the Word of God.
12Those along the traveled road are the people who have heard; then the devil comes and carries away the message out of their hearts, that they may not believe ([c]acknowledge Me as their Savior and devote themselves to Me) and be saved [here and hereafter].
13And those upon the rock [are the people] who, when they hear [the Word], receive and welcome it with joy; but these have no root. They believe for a while, and in time of trial and temptation fall away (withdraw and stand aloof).
14And as for what fell among the thorns, these are [the people] who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked and suffocated with the anxieties and cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not ripen (come to maturity and perfection).
15But as for that [seed] in the good soil, these are [the people] who, hearing the Word, hold it fast in a just ([d]noble, virtuous) and worthy heart, and steadily bring forth fruit with patience.
16No one after he has lighted a lamp covers it with a vessel or puts it under a [dining table] couch; but he puts it on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light.
17For there is nothing hidden that shall not be disclosed, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come out into the open.
18Be careful therefore how you listen. For to him who has [spiritual knowledge] will more be given; and from him who does not have [spiritual knowledge], even what he thinks and [e]guesses and [f]supposes that he has will be taken away.
I believe that the scripture is clear, some will come to the faith yet will fall away either due to self centeredness, self preservation or simply bad doctrine. I believe that is why proper discipleship is so important that believers might become mature in their faith. Some who hold to certain doctrinal traditions might say that these people were never saved to begin with. To me it really doesn't matter if you believe that they have willingly forfeited their salvation or they were never saved to begin with, the truth is that people do walk away.
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Crossfire
Guest
As evangelicals we recognize that we are saved by faith in Christ alone and not by works. It's important to know how a person comes to faith. Here are a couple of verses:
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"
You call loving Christ enough to obey Him, and endure until the end, finishing your course, bondage?
Do you also call sinfullness grace?
This is a very important subject and many Christian denominations make it seem like its a piece of cake. They can go so far as to make an idol out of the idea of instant salvation (its true). Watch this very interesting video on the subject:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkPcVFx-U-k[/video]
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Crossfire
Guest
I believe that the bible teaches that if any person truly comes in contact with Divine grace, you will see the fruit of grace in their own lives especially with how they treat other people. Don't listen to anyone who pretends to be wise in word of God yet does not practice the ways of God.
Matthew 7: 15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves. You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [n]excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7: 15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves. You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [n]excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
The law states if we sin, we fall short. the penalty is death (spiritual)
Those who say we can lose salvation because of sin are returning to law. Period!
Did you love your parents? Did you always obay them? How about your spouse? Do you always do what they wish. Well it is no different with God. we love him, it does not mean we will always obay him. Failing to live a perfect life does not mean we do not love God.
If enduring means living sinless. No one will make it. Scripture says you break even the LEAST of the law. you are found guilty of the whole law.
It is pridefull to think you could ever be holy enough to earn salvation. Even more pridefull to think you could earn salvation more than anyone else whoever walked the earth.
Grace = unearned favor. It means it can not be earned by doing anything. Those who teach we can be good enough to earn grace, or bad enough to lose it do not understand what grace is. Again, period!!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
How can we be told we HAVE eternal life, we HAVE been justified. if salvation does not happen at a point of time.
Those who say salvation is not something we have, but we have to earn it call god, and all the apostles liard. And make a mockery of Christ's death!
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Loved
Guest
This is reply is exactly what the Holy Spirit is telling me about Salvation. I am also very fearful for the people spreading the Gospel, not many people tell of the repentance side of the equation (they tend to lean towards the accept JESUS or go to hell side of the equation) or go on to explain about the by-product of true Salvation, good works (not required, but evident in a sold out soul (to Christ)).
Before some one jumps down my throat, Salvation is not an equation. When first Saved it is the beginning of the greatest love relationship you will ever know ................. Saved by grace!!!
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Crossfire
Guest
I would totally agree with this statement. However, the one thing every new believer should understand about salvation is this:
"He who is forgiven much loves much." (Luke 7)
Love others with the same grace that God has so lovingly and freely bestowed on you.
Thats just it, we do not loose our salvation because of sin. we loose our salvation because we choose to turn from Grace and the Lordship of Christ back to lording over ourselves
Choosing to sin means we do not love Christ as we should.
Enduring to the end mean remaining faithful to Christ
Actually it is prideful to think that you r flesh is more powerful that the work of God in your life, and that He cannot keep you from sin, presenting you faultless before Him, as His word says He will
This is mans definition of Grace, not God's. Grace is the ability of God working in you and through you to accomplish what you could never accomplish on your own. This is how we are capable of obeying Christ, by God's Grace.
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Crossfire
Guest
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Crossfire
Guest
You got it!
Couldn't have said it better myself. Divine grace not only forgives, it both empowers and transforms the life of a believer.
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Originally Posted by Zilla64007
Yes we are saved by grace...
But that grace does not give us a license to sin.
Quite to the contrary indeed. Grace enables us to stop sinningAmen! Quite the contrary if you truly understand how grace really works.
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Crossfire
Guest
It's nice to hear from someone who truly understands and promotes DIVINE GRACE. I trust that since you understand it, He is at work both in you and through you. I honestly don't think one can understand it without first experiencing it for themselves. It seems to be one of those things that can't be explained or understood with carnal thinking. It is a divine reality that must be experienced, a revelation of / from the indwelling Holy Spirit straight into the heart of a believer.
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