Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Lamar]

What do you want? A signed statement written in my blood? I've told you my real experiences. Go ahead, call me a liar.

Reread the post. I did not call you a liar, I simply stated the truth. Your theology is based on unproven claims. That's all.

If these claims are proven true then your theology is based on proven claims of tangible supernatural manifestations.

 

[Aussie52]

Your views are also based on dogma - not the doctrines of the ancient Church but that of latter day theologians like Conyers Middleton (AD 1683-1750) and B. B. Warfield (AD 1851-1921). These came up with the idea of Cessationism a millenia after the scriptures were written. These two men were heavily influenced by the Matrialistic Rationalism of Enlightenment philosophy which rejected the transcendent supernaturalism of the Bible.

Of the two, Warfield was somewhat more conservative since, at least, he believed the miraculous revelations and works God did under both the Old and New Covenants. What he DENIED was that miracles occurred AFTER the time of the Apostles.
Middleton, who is generally believed to be a closet Deist denied any activity of the Holy Spirit and undermined the written record of God's activity altogether. He was one of those who are sometimes referred to as "modern theologians."

One Christian teacher who was saved, had living faith, saw real movements of God that brought multitudes to Christ was
John Wesley. Wesley (1636–1678) was a contemporary of Conyers Middleton (1683-1750) and greatly opposed the quasi-Deistic ideas of Middleton. You can still read Wesley's points in the open letter he published. I doubt if you would even attempt doing that since your mind has become so fixed on Cessationism that you are no longer able to listen to anyone who suggests that God might still be answering their prayers. Indeed, you have become so polarized that you cannot tolerate anyone who make such claims.

You pose this as a legitimate challenge while selectively excluding all evidence (past and present) that God still intervenes in the natural world. The Bible calls this predjudice using an unjust scale. On one hand, you present yourself as a reasonable individual willing to consider the facts. In reality, you have already barracaded yourself behind Cessationism and treat Continuationists (who believe in Jesus and the Faith) with contempt as if we were heathens.

It sounds like you and Lamar are the ones whose dream of demolishing Pentecostal Church buildings. Martin Luther felt the same way about groups like the Anabaptists who taught differently than he did. In that case, he and the other Reformers actually did go on a crusade against them, demolishing their meeting places and punishing all who would not submit.

You have a form of contemptuous arrogance that assumes everything you believe is OBVIOUS (or should be) to everyone and that anyone who DISAGREES with your view is either totally ignorant of the facts or simply not intelligent enough to comprehend your view. At the same time, you cloud the real BIBLICAL issues using straw man versions of other people's views, labelling them as flat-earthers whether this chacterization has any basis in reality or not does not matter. You apparently feel justified in throwing any accusation or comparison you wish without reference to what is true. Of course this is much easier to do than having to listen and understand what they really do believe.

Be careful in enlisting John Wesley to your point of view. There are many cases mentioned in his diary where he cautioned against and stopped, unusual outbursts of emotions, jerking and strange phenomena, including tongues.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You are certainly struggling with the term "physical supernatural manifestations". This is quite obvious.

I am not struggling with it. I choose not to use YOUR invented terminology because I think adding the word physical to the word supernatural is confuses the issue. Any supernatural exercise of God's power CAN affect a change in the physical world or in the physical body.

When Jesus stilled the storm and fed the 5000 He did a miracle in the natural world. When He brought instantaneous healing to people who had diseases which, in that time, were incurable, that also was a miracle. A divine miracle is something wrought by the power of God. When God saves and regenerates that is not physical but us a miracle God performs in a person's inner spirit and soul. Either way miracles of God are those He does by His divine dunamis.

I can think of no other reason for your conclusions other than your ignorance to this term.

First you invent non-standard idiosyncratic terminology. Then you use your term to explain your belief system. After that, you demand that others use the same terminology as you do even if they do not agree with you. You cannot bend your mind around the fact that others might have reasons to disagree with your conclusion. It has to be that they are ignorant and unenlightened.

This is the way propagandists and cultists control ideas by controlling the use of language. It is the same tactic the Gnostics used when they began eisegeting their ideas into the text of scriptures. Other people were not capable of understanding the deeper meaning of scripture because they were unenlightened and ignorant.

". I strongly suggest that you cease commenting on this thread since your assertions are rather childish.

So rather than answering others objections you resort to ad hominem accusations. This time those who disagree with you are "childish" and thus they must be silenced.

There is something about this term that is going over your head.

The term must be too spiritual for but the enlightened to understand

May I suggest you ask a third neutral party the meaning of a "physical supernatural manifestation".
This is how Google defines the term:

Enlightenment is a thankless task, isn't it? Oh the burden of being on such a higher plane

A physical supernatural manifestation is an event where an intangible spiritual, divine, or paranormal entity (like a ghost, demon, or deity) interacts with the material world. It bridges the gap between the spiritual and physical realms, producing observable, tangible, or measurable phenomena that defy known laws of nature.

I believe that intangible spiritual entities exist and that they can sometimes interact with the material world but when I speak of the divine supernatural miracles of God I am referring specifically to the Holy Transcendent God of the Bible not to some false god of demonic origin. I know the difference.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Be careful in enlisting John Wesley to your point of view. There are many cases mentioned in his diary where he cautioned against and stopped, unusual outbursts of emotions, jerking and strange phenomena, including tongues.

John Wesley must be judged also as we all must be. However, I think he accomplished a lot for God. Sometimes even real experiences from God can lead even believers into excess. Having had Bipolar Disorder for 30 years has made me skeptical about my own emotional states. The hymn says "I dare not trust the SWEETEST frame (of mind) but wholly lean on Jesus' name." Sometimes the most deceptive emotions are pleasant ones. They are like the song of the sirens. Wesley was right not to let people get carried away.

In the past, I went through years where my emotional system shut completely down. I did not react to anything and was unable to experience pleasure, happiness or joy, a condition called Anhedonia. I could not even feel love for my family which was very troubling. I began doubting if I knew God at all since God is love and "he that does not love does not know God"

Eventually, I laid hold of Finney's definition of love as "willing the highest good of universal being" Agape, though rooted in God, is expressed by the human WILL rather than the EMOTIONS. God loved the world in that He GAVE Himself. After that I gradually quit worrying about my unresponsive emotions and began to observe what I DID. I was able to see that while my soul was still frozen in a glacier, my actions towards others revealed that I was willing their highest good. That was a very difficult school which I hope I will never experience again. My emotions did not completely thaw out until the last few years. I began to find that I could cry - not compulsively but freely. Now, God's mercy is what makes me cry

 

[Aussie52]

John Wesley must be judged also as we all must be. However, I think he accomplished a lot for God. Sometimes even real experiences from God can lead even believers into excess. Having had Bipolar Disorder for 30 years has made me skeptical about my own emotional states. The hymn says "I dare not trust the SWEETEST frame (of mind) but wholly lean on Jesus' name." Sometimes the most deceptive emotions are pleasant ones. They are like the song of the sirens. Wesley was right not to let people get carried away.

In the past, I went through years where my emotional system shut completely down. I did not react to anything and was unable to experience pleasure, happiness or joy, a condition called Anhedonia. I could not even feel love for my family which was very troubling. I began doubting if I knew God at all since God is love and "he that does not love does not know God"

Eventually, I laid hold of Finney's definition of love as "willing the highest good of universal being" Agape, though rooted in God, is expressed by the human WILL rather than the EMOTIONS. God loved the world in that He GAVE Himself. After that I gradually quit worrying about my unresponsive emotions and began to observe what I DID. I was able to see that while my soul was still frozen in a glacier, my actions towards others revealed that I was willing their highest good. That was a very difficult school which I hope I will never experience again. My emotions did not completely thaw out until the last few years. I began to find that I could cry - not compulsively but freely. Now, God's mercy is what makes me cry

Being a long-term sufferer of clinical depression, I can relate to what you write.

 

[TrustandObey]

Lamar is wrong.

Pentecostalism: Growing at 2.2% per year, this remains the fastest-growing religious movement worldwide, and is projected to exceed one billion adherents globally by 2050.

???

Even if this were true why would this make Pentecostalism correct or its claims valid?

 

[Gideon300]

Reread the post. I did not call you a liar, I simply stated the truth. Your theology is based on unproven claims. That's all.

If these claims are proven true then your theology is based on proven claims of tangible supernatural manifestations.

Your theology is patently false. And empirical evidence confirms that your theology is false.

 

[Gideon300]

???

Even if this were true why would this make Pentecostalism correct or its claims valid?

Agreed.

 

[Lamar]

Your theology is patently false. And empirical evidence confirms that your theology is false.

If you had empirical evidence you would have presented it long ago.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Being a long-term sufferer of clinical depression, I can relate to what you write.

Whenever we admit to being depressed, other Christians, trying to help, will ask what are you depressed about? If you say" I am not depressed about anything. I just am. They do not know what to say about this because they do not experience life that way. Spurgeon understood this when he referred to his own "causeless (or clinical) depression," which he distinguished from the kind that is the result of emotional damage, circumstance or loss.

Unfortunately, the Church is often the last place you want to reveal that you are depressed. They tend to judge you as not having faith or as listening to the Devil. Of course, we are more vulnerable to Satan's attacks when we are depressed. The same can be said about other forms of emotional pain as well such as loss. I never say that it is God's WILL for me to have Bipolar. I just consider it to be one of the many effects of the Fall on the human soul. Both Bipolar disorder as well as unipolar depression have a strong genetic etiology.

Unfortunately, I found many Charismatic groups, in particular, to be especially unhelpful when it came to depression. Ordinary people cannot fully grasp the idea that the brain's emotional centers can malfunction and cause their emotional experience to be out of sync with what they believe in their minds. By contrast, Jesus our High Priest is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. The word touched comes from the verb SUMPATHEO which means "to feel together with."

 

[JimiSurvivor]

A point I've tried to make also many times that falls on deaf ears

Cessationists don't say God doesn't do miracles, doesn't answer prayers.. but the particular gifts for certain times have fulfilled their job.

Maybe everyone else but you is deaf. On the other hand perhaps you have not adequately clarified exactly WHAT you believe.
I for one, do not belabor the point of whether the NT believers were healed by petitioning God in prayer or whether they were healed through some "gift of healing" which you have not exactly defined. It would clear up things considerably if you would define what you think this gift was.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Agreed.

The point is that the manna (regardless of what we may think of its symbolic meaning) simply ceased.

This miraculous event went on for decades until God caused it to cease without warning.

The assumption here is that if ANY miraculous phenomenon CEASES we can use that scripture to prove Cessationism even when there is no reference to Cessationism in the passage? This is a loose and arbitrary way to interpret scripture. A "workman" who handled the text with no more specificity and clarity than this.would certainly need to be ashamed We cannot interpret the scripture accurately at all if we start out dismissing the MAIN POINT of a passage. Remember, the first and primary rule of Hermeneutics is to Let scripture interpret scripture.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

This comment is indicative of the warped thinking of many here, including you.

The belief that the claims of physical supernatural manifestations made by the modern day Pentecostal movement can or may be true is mind numbing.

This is not about theology, this is about a group of people claiming the moon is made of green cheese and people like you making bone head demands that there must be something "explicitly stating" that the moon is not made of green cheese for these silly claims to be wrong.

The Pentecostals and their sort are not raising the dead, they are not giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is not real languages and they are certainly not healing the lame.

They are simply mocking the Holy Spirit and you are their useful idiot.

(1) You start your diatribe by saying tbe issue at hand is NOT ABOUT THEOLOGY. I think it is obvious to anyone that the debate is primarily about theology. Instead, you make absurd comparisons like Continuationists are no different from people who believe in primative myths about the moon being made of green cheese. Surely you understand that merely COMPARING another person's belief to nonsense, in no way PROVES it to be nonsense.

(2) Paul and Peter who faced many skeptics said this:
15 But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…(1 Peter 3:15-16)
The word defense is apología (from 575 /apó, "from" and 3056 /lógos, "intelligent reasoning") – properly, a well-reasoned reply; a thought-out response to adequately address the issue(s) that is raised.
Do you really think comparing your opponent's beliefs to believing the moon is made of green cheese fits the criterion for a well-reasoned defense? No, it is just childish mockery. The only defense you use (if it can be called a defense) is your reliance on ad hominems and straw men which does not qualify as logical debate

 

[CS1]

If you had empirical evidence you would have presented it long ago.

you can't see it because you wear a hood of bias.

 

[Dave123]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

Sorry, but i don't have the time to read this whole thread. If someone said this already, again, my apologies.

In my opinion, these discussion are often framed the wrong way.

Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God. The lists of gifts given in Scripture are general. If it's from the Holy Spirit, not the flesh, it's good and thus a gift. That's the Biblical meaning of the gifts. Setting aside the sign gifts for now for obvious reasons, that which they pointed to have come and past. Israel's judgment as a nation, the Gentiles being grafted in, the Word and it's messengers being confirmed. As for the rest...

In short, It's the fruit of the Spirit.

John 15:1-5 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

"...for without Me you can do nothing", nothing [good] implied. That's where the gifts come from.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Ephesians 4:7-8, 11-12 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."....And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

All the gifts are for the edification of the Church. Any gifts used for self edification is in fact in direct contradiction to Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians, and therefore, most likely, not from the Spirit and not a gift from God.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

No need to get goofy with this stuff. Scripture is pretty clear. 1 Corinthians 12-14, Paul lays down the foundation of purpose, to edify the Body, not ourselves. Then gives us examples of the what to do (edify the Body), and then gives us examples of the what not to do (edify self). Though many teach the 'what not to do" as commands, and as good things, these are clearly examples of what not to do. Love is the great qualifier. Love is not self seeking.

Whenever in doubt, ask if what you're doing passes the simple test of love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8A Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails....

Remember, fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), good, a gift. The flesh, not good, not a gift, but sin.

Galatians 5:16-17 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.



Those who champion themselves as protectors of the gifts, the non cessationist, actually don't even see or acknowledge 90% of those gifts. Kind of ironic, me thinks.

Dave

 

[wattie]

Maybe everyone else but you is deaf. On the other hand perhaps you have not adequately clarified exactly WHAT you believe.
I for one, do not belabor the point of whether the NT believers were healed by petitioning God in prayer or whether they were healed through some "gift of healing" which you have not exactly defined. It would clear up things considerably if you would define what you think this gift was.

God independently performing His power is different to God working through His believers with spiritual gifts. They aren't the same thing.

So, God can raise someone from the dead, cast out demons, modify nature etc.. but the particular operation of doing things thru His believers like speaking in tongues, the gift of knowledge, the gift of miracles had particular purposes and times that completed their purpose.

The gift of miracles would be a believer, empowered by God, laying hands on another and they would be miraculously healed, as per the apostles doing it.

That was 100 percent, basically instant healing, where there would be no recurrence of the same injury/physical issue. Any pain in the same spot would be a new injury/ailment.

Comes down to the distinction between God doing things as He wills with His power and the particular purposes of the gifts He gave.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

God independently performing His power is different to God working through His believers with spiritual gifts. They aren't the same thing.

True, sometimes God does everything directly through the exercise of His power. Other times He prefer working through representative agents whether they are angelic or human. These two ways of working are indeed different.

So, God can raise someone from the dead, cast out demons, modify nature etc.. but the particular operation of doing things thru His believers like speaking in tongues, the gift of knowledge, the gift of miracles had particular purposes and times that completed their purpose.

I see no clear scriptural evidence that God has discontinued His policy of working through the operation of the nine Spiritual gifts.
Paul said the gifts would ONE DAY cease at some point in the future but he never said they have ceased or even that would
cease in a short time. He did say that the cessation of the gifts was associated with a few significant events. Paul contrasts how we understand things NOW with how we will understand things at that FUTURE DAY (1 Corinthians 13:12)

A. 1 Corinthians 13:12 contrasts our knowledge of Him NOW versus what it will be like for us in that Day.
12a NOW we see but a DIM REFLECTION (Greek: in an "enigma")
12b as in a mirror;
Mirrors at that time being made of polished bronze yielded only a unclear reflection
12c Paul says that THEN His image will be absolutely clear and unclouded
12d Then our current limited knowledge will be replaced by experiential FACE-TO-FACE knowledge
12e Now I know in part; THEN I shall KNOW FULLY, even AS I AM FULLY KNOWN

B. Paul uses this same imagery the same way in
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
This time seems to be referring the day when we meet with Christ and see Him face-to-face.
After that there will be no longer be any need for the spiritual gifts.

C. The Apostle John seemed to be seeing the same thing when he wrote:
2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.…
(1 John 3:2-3)

The gift of miracles would be a believer, empowered by God, laying hands on another and they would be miraculously healed, as per the apostles doing it.

That was 100 percent, basically instant healing, where there would be no recurrence of the same injury/physical issue. Any pain in the same spot would be a new injury/ailment.

Comes down to the distinction between God doing things as He wills with His power and the particular purposes of the gifts He gave.

I think you are right about this. Jesus did not let their sickness linger. I do not know whether those who were healed EVER got sick of the same thing again. After all, Jesus warn the paralytic he healed not to go back into sin lest a worse thing happen to him (John 5:14). I guess the point is that the healing was real not some placebo effect.

 

[wattie]

True, sometimes God does everything directly through the exercise of His power. Other times He prefer working through representative agents whether they are angelic or human. These two ways of working are indeed different.

I see no clear scriptural evidence that God has discontinued His policy of working through the operation of the nine Spiritual gifts.
Paul said the gifts would ONE DAY cease at some point in the future but he never said they have ceased or even that would
cease in a short time. He did say that the cessation of the gifts was associated with a few significant events. Paul contrasts how we understand things NOW with how we will understand things at that FUTURE DAY (1 Corinthians 13:12)

A. 1 Corinthians 13:12 contrasts our knowledge of Him NOW versus what it will be like for us in that Day.
12a NOW we see but a DIM REFLECTION (Greek: in an "enigma")
12b as in a mirror;
Mirrors at that time being made of polished bronze yielded only a unclear reflection
12c Paul says that THEN His image will be absolutely clear and unclouded
12d Then our current limited knowledge will be replaced by experiential FACE-TO-FACE knowledge
12e Now I know in part; THEN I shall KNOW FULLY, even AS I AM FULLY KNOWN

B. Paul uses this same imagery the same way in
2 Corinthians 3:18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, whichcomes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
This time seems to be referring the day when we meet with Christ and see Him face-to-face.
After that there will be no longer be any need for the spiritual gifts.

C. The Apostle John seemed to be seeing the same thing when he wrote:
2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.…
(1 John 3:2-3)


I think you are right about this. Jesus did not let their sickness linger. I do not know whether those who were healed EVER got sick of the same thing again. After all, Jesus warn the paralytic he healed not to go back into sin lest a worse thing happen to him (John 5:14). I guess the point is that the healing was real not some placebo effect.

Just to clarify, most cessationists would have only tongues, miracles and knowledge gifts ceasing...along with the office of the prophet and apostles.. but not all nine gifts ceasing. Particularly not the gifts of faith hope and love.

 

[Lamar]

Just to clarify, most cessationists would have only tongues, miracles and knowledge gifts ceasing...along with the office of the prophet and apostles.. but not all nine gifts ceasing. Particularly not the gifts of faith hope and love.

If he would simply read the OP that is what the thread is about.

Tangible supernatural manifestations.

This has been going over his head for so time.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

If he would simply read the OP that is what the thread is about.

Tangible supernatural manifestations.

This has been going over his head for so time.

Lamar insists that everyone here use his terminology. He used to characterize non-conformity to his demands as incomprehension. He seems unable to handle disagreement. The only reason he can come up with to explain this is that he must be so far above others intellectually and spiritually that the "unenlightened" cannot comprehend his ideas. I personally see no reason to create a special category of "miracles" that are natural distinct from those which are purely spiritual and supernatural. What the Holy Spirit does by His divine dunamis can be either physical or spiritual. Either way, what God does is still miraculous because they come from the transcendent holy God who is above nature. Last time, he quoted the definition of supernatural from Google which lumps every non-material action into single category which included what the Devil says and does. To me Lamar seems to want to gain a following and be some kind of spiritual guru. I, for one, refuse to cooperate. Anyone who claims superiority as much as he does either has OCD or is a Narcissist or both