From what I have gathered, Cessationists views are not all the same. Some seem very "hardline" while others seem less so. Different lists of "gifts" are mentioned in the Bible which seem to be in different categories. I tend to call the nine gifts Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians the charismata because that is the term used by Paul. By contrast, the "gifts" mentioned in Ephesians 5 refer to people given by God to serve as ministers to the Church. For this reason I tend to call these ministerial gifts. When it comes to the "gifts" listed in Romans 12 I use Bill Gothards term "motivational gifts" because they do not seem to be official but, instead, describe what members of the Body of Christ tend to do naturally without regard to specific offices or anointings. I use these terms I do this for clarity and simplicity. I never demand that anyone call them what I do.
Is cessation an observation or theology?
- Thread starter Lamar
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Wesley was right. There are still false signs and wonders. The "Toronto Blessing" was exactly that. However, there can only be a counterfeit of what is real. I've heard a demon talk in tongues. I've also heard the real thing. My wife prays in tongues; I do not.
Wesley also said that it is doubt and unbelief that hinders the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If you want confirmation of the validity of spiritual gifts, look up Derek Prince. I went to one of his meetings and watched dozens of people delivered from demons. Another man with the gift of healing was Harry Greenwood. I saw a number of healings in the meetings I attended.
The Asuza St revival was genuine but there was a great deal that was false as well. Unfortunately, a lot of believers lack discernment. Then there are others who assume that the genuine must be false because of the demonic counterfeit. That is the opposite problem.
Wesley also said that it is doubt and unbelief that hinders the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If you want confirmation of the validity of spiritual gifts, look up Derek Prince. I went to one of his meetings and watched dozens of people delivered from demons. Another man with the gift of healing was Harry Greenwood. I saw a number of healings in the meetings I attended.
The Asuza St revival was genuine but there was a great deal that was false as well. Unfortunately, a lot of believers lack discernment. Then there are others who assume that the genuine must be false because of the demonic counterfeit. That is the opposite problem.
Again, I would caution all against calling or implying that Wesley was Charismatic, for He was not. His emphasis on the Spirit filled life was not the charismata but the ethical life. Wesley believed that God raised up the Methodist movement to spread scriptural holiness throughout the land. To that end, He was very careful in dealing with any 'manifestations' that occurred in his meetings. He did not encourage them in the least.
In regards to the mirror in 1 Co 13
James 1:23-25 KJV
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The Word fits this
When Lamar talks about empirical evidence I think he means something he himself can verify personally. However, that kind of evidence is not always available. In the Bible, observation of a an event by two or more witnesses confirmed a matter, at least, in a court of law. Even then, the existence of FALSE WITNESSES can confound the outcome.
The scientific method in which I have a background requires that a statistically normed sample of subjects participate in double-blind placebo-controlled studies. However, even this kind of evidence does not really PROVE a proposition. It merely supports or does not support a proposition. In SCIENCE, what is important is the likelihood that a proposition is true or not. In ordinary life, hardly anyone has sufficient control over the variables to factor out all other possible explanations for an outcome.
Those who are personally invested in a truth [as we all are, to an extent] often choose to selectively reject the testimony of certain witnesses no matter who they are. The Early Apostolic Church, as well as the Church of the Ante-Nicene period and proceeding wrote about revivals of faith they had witnessed which were accompanied by the same miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit that Paul had written about. Even if people deny their testimony about witnessing miracles must see, at the very least that these early Christians
had no doctrine or tradition that the charismata had ceased.
I agree that what James was referring to as the mirror of truth was what he understood through the written word. The word is utilized by the Spirit as a lamp that searches out the hidden things of our hearts
When Lamar talks about empirical evidence I think he means something he himself can verify. However, this kind of evidence is not always available. In the Bible, observation of a an event by two or more witnesses confirmed a matter, at least, in a court of law. Even then the existence of FALSE WITNESSES can confound the outcome.
The scientific method in which I have a background requires that a statistically normed sample of subjects participate in double-blind placebo-controlled studies. However, even this kind of evidence does not really PROVE a proposition. It merely supports or does not support a proposition. In SCIENCE, what is important is the likelihood that a proposition is true or not. In ordinary life, hardly anyone has sufficient control over the variables to factor out all other possible explanations for an outcome.
Some who are personally invested in certain dogmas will often choose to reject the testimony of witnesses no matter who they are. The Early Church beginning in the Ante-Nicene period and proceeding throughout the generations wrote about revivals of faith they witnessed which was often accompanied by the very same miraculous manifestations of the Holy Spirit that were mentioned
What James refers to as a mirror was apparently the written word which shows us our true nature. Since the written word is inspired God uses it to show us our natural face. I do not think he was alluding to the time when we will see Christ face to face and be metamorphosed to become like Him.
My understanding is that miracles occur from time to time that there are blind people who have been killed and occasional dead person who's been raised. Some speaking in tongues is real.
Not every manifestation that claims to be of God really is. There are con men and there are people who are kind of hyped up.
There are also theological positions that lead individuals to always speak positively about the idea of God doing miracles and to speak as if it's happened and that sort of thing. Especially important for word of faith charismatics but they aren't the only ones. She's an older understanding of how healing works and there were other groups in the 1899swere into healing.
I agree that calling Wesley a "charismatic" (in the modern sense) is anachronistic. Wesleyan pastor William Fletcher, said there is a ditch on both sides of the road and people who fall into one ditch tend to overreact by going into the opposite ditch. I have been through this myself.
A. Continuationism is often defined as the proposition that the spiritual gifts are ONGOING. Let me clarify this, somewhat.
My own belief that the gifts have not ceased does not mean I believe they ALWAYS occur with the same level of intensity and frequency.
B. Indeed, when I read the historical accounts written by Christians, it seems that such spiritual manifestations wax and wanes over time. Therefore, saying they COULD happen at any time is not the same as saying they always WILL occur. It is similar to how many see those dramatic movements of God we call "revivals.' The Holy Spirit primary in bringing about revivals. However, we humans also play an role in the process through repentance, prayer and obedience. This is how Israel experienced revivals in their time.
C. People sometimes think I am inconsistent when I admit to having certain neurological and physical afflictions.
THAT kind of thinking is what defines WOF theology not Continuationism.
D. I also do not believe the charismata are an permanent endowment of power or knowledge that I can USE whenever I wish. This is the premise upon which Cessationists base such challenges as "Well if you have the gift of healing why do you not empty out the hospitals?" The same challenge could be put to Jesus. Why did HE not cure every last sick person in Israel? Sometimes the word says he healed everyone in a certain group yet there always seemed to be more sick people.
E. Even the Son of God had God's power on tap to dispense as He wished. As a human He limited himself to do only what the Father showed Him to do:
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
My own belief that the gifts have not ceased does not mean I believe they ALWAYS occur with the same level of intensity and frequency.
B. Indeed, when I read the historical accounts written by Christians, it seems that such spiritual manifestations wax and wanes over time. Therefore, saying they COULD happen at any time is not the same as saying they always WILL occur. It is similar to how many see those dramatic movements of God we call "revivals.' The Holy Spirit primary in bringing about revivals. However, we humans also play an role in the process through repentance, prayer and obedience. This is how Israel experienced revivals in their time.
C. People sometimes think I am inconsistent when I admit to having certain neurological and physical afflictions.
THAT kind of thinking is what defines WOF theology not Continuationism.
D. I also do not believe the charismata are an permanent endowment of power or knowledge that I can USE whenever I wish. This is the premise upon which Cessationists base such challenges as "Well if you have the gift of healing why do you not empty out the hospitals?" The same challenge could be put to Jesus. Why did HE not cure every last sick person in Israel? Sometimes the word says he healed everyone in a certain group yet there always seemed to be more sick people.
E. Even the Son of God had God's power on tap to dispense as He wished. As a human He limited himself to do only what the Father showed Him to do:
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Maybe it was not His intent to heal for the sake of healing, as you are implying. When people came to Jesus they were all healed. Same with the Apostles. And remember, all who were healed, even miraculously, eventually died. Did their faith run dry? The gift of healing was, as the Bible explains, to verify the message and the messenger. And those who had the true gift did heal all who came to them. That's the standard. What the modern day faith healers has done is put the burden of proof on the believer to have "enough faith", when in fact the true gift of healing through human agency verified the message and the messenger, not the believers faith.
If they put the burden of proof on your faith and not their results, it's a fraud.
Everyone has the right to ask God to heal them, and if He does, it's usually through providence, that being non miraculous means. Sometimes God does heal miraculously in answer to prayer, but that's not the gift of healing. The true gift of healing was through human agency, healed everyone, all the time, of organic diseases, completely, some who didn't even ask for it, crippled, with no faith at all except to ask for money, and were healed instead.
The Bible sets the standard, the so called faith healers today are just redefining it.
Luke 4:40, Acts 5:12-16, Acts 28:9 Jesus and the Apostles healed them all.
Acts 3:6-8 even those who didn't ask for it.
1 Corinthians 12:12, Hebrews 2:3-4, Acts 2:22 To authenticate the message and the messenger.
Dave
Everyone dies from illness, injury, or when their body wears out. Has nothing to do with faith running dry.
Healing was to relieve suffering. Secondarily, it verified the gospel.
Ministering healing through the laying on of hands should not be a a matter of showmanship, a spectacle, or an egotistic display. Also, in the Bible, it is never accompanied by “slaying in the spirit.”
You have no way of knowing that God usually heals through non miraculous means. You just speculate based on your experience.
We receive according to our faith.
Matthew 5:34
And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Matthew 9
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
James 5
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Hey Anchorite
The point being, everyone dies from illness, not old age. I'm sure many who were healed, even miraculously, who also asked to be healed in the end, but that prayer was not answered. Why did all those who had enough faith at one point, all not have enough faith at a later point in life? Is there an age limit to this prayer being answered? The point being, there were reasons that this gift was present, as the Bible clearly tells us. Just like any sign gift, there were secondary benefits that went away the sign was no longer needed.
I believe that God providentially governs everything. The day we are born, the day that we die, everything. So I believe that we glorify Him the most when we see that, more so than only seeing Him in miracles. I went to a Pentecostal church, I know they only see God in miracles, that's why they try to turn everything into miracles that are not.
Only according to His will. I John 5:14 Our prayers are always heard, when they are according to His will.
Jesus healed to authenticate the message and the messenger, as I have shown with Scripture, But also to illustrate the healing that was to come from the atonement, our physical resurrection. That obviously does not apply today. If the healing in the atonement applied today, nobody would get sick or die. That passage in James is speaking of a spiritual healing. Saving the sick, which it says, and healing the sick, which it doesn't say, are two different things. Wouldn't you agree? It even qualifies what saving the sick means in the following statement. Anyways...
Matthew 8:16-17 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses."
1 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Even Jesus was confirmed by these same things
Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--
The signs confirmed the word and the person speaking it. No new revelation today. We have the faith once for all delivered. It seems very odd to me, to have to debate something that's not happening. But here we are.
The Gift of Healing.
Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.
Jesus healed them all.
Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
Peter healed them all.
Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.
Paul healed them all.
That's the Biblical standard for the gift of healing.
Dave
Not everyone dies of illness. People die from injury, murder, or the body wearing out. Our bodies are mortal, not eternal. The organs get weak and quit functioning. Some die peacefully in their sleep when God takes their breath away.
Psalm 104:59
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
God’s will for healing was demonstrated in the ministry of Jesus. Healing is always God’s will. Not once did Jesus ever say, “I cannot heal you, because it is not God’s will in your case. Your sickness is humbling you.”
It is wrong to pray, “if it be They will” when God has shown what His will is already. The prayer of faith never says “if it be Thy will.”
The gifts of healing, miracles, casting out demons, leading souls to salvation are still needed. The need for deliverance did not cease when the apostles died or when the canon of scripture was complete. That is bad theology from pastors who have very weak faith.
I was not implying that Jesus purpose was to "heal people for the sake of healing them" In fact, I am not even sure exactly what that means. I suppose, if you mean Jesus was on a mission to eliminate all the physical effects of the FALL then I would have to disagree about that too. Jesus' primary purpose in His first advent was show us the Father by being His exact representation and to make known the saving gospel. Through Jesus we learned that the Father really cares about individuals and that, at times, He is even willing to reach out to us and help us in our condition of need if we dare to trust in Him.
This was not always the case. For instance, when Jesus visited His hometown, the word says He "did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief." COULD He have done miracles there DESPITE their unbelief? I imagine He could, but we would have learned nothing that. This would be like a disobedient child disobeying its parents and getting away with stealing a reward he did not earn. What would the child learn from this?
Sometimes, EVERYONE in a certain crowd was healed. I don't think there is sufficient evidence to say that always happened. Therefore, we cannot be dogmatic about it. Paul mentions occasions when he as well as other members of his Apostolic team (such as Timothy and Epaproditis) got sick. From this, we see that the gift of healing does not grant a person the power to heal anyone any time they wished. This is a misconception of what the gift of healing was. It is even dangerous since it might tempt a person to believe as Simon Magus who people called "The Great Power of God"
Your other statement that even those who were healed miraculously eventually died is irrelevant. God healing someone's body is not at all like their body being resurrected to eternal life. When you speak of "faith running dry" it sounds as faith were a battery that can lose its charge. The Bible says "faith comes by hearing the word of God." Unless we have a word from God or a clear truth recorded in scripture we have no basis to believe anything. I also object to calling people who are used by God to bring about healing a Faith Healer as if they had permanent custody of some power other than the Holy Spirit.
Your statement that all who were healed, even miraculously, eventually died is equally irrelevant. Surely you understand that mortality and death are endemic to our race as well as to the whole creation and that death will be the LAST ENEMY to be conquered. God has not yet granted immortality to our bodies and no amount of faith on our part will change that.
At times, Jesus healed everyone in a crowd. I do not recall any verse that says He always healed everyone that was present. This is an unverified assumption
Yes I have seen people trying to play this game. When a person is healed it is due to the minister's faith but when they are not it is due to the petitioner's lack of faith. Heads I win, tails you lose.
The gift of healing as It is taught in Pentecostal and charismatic teachings is obivious past. No question that God heals today. I think brother Aussie 52 showed it in his post.
Healing, prophesy and speaking in tounges are called sign gifts, because they were the proof that the gospel was from God. Right you cant find it in The scripture called so.
Lamar's position is absurd. What "empirical" evidence is there that Jesus did anything recorded in the gospels? Paul tells us that spiritual things are spiritually understood. 1 Corinthians 2:14. Trying to understand spiritual gifts and manifestations from a purely intellectual viewpoint is a recipe for confusion.
I've had discussions with atheists and materialistic evolutionists that demand evidence. I tell them that they can't "prove" that they exist. When I wake up from my dream, they will be gone. They are not amused.
There are people who truly have the gift of healing. Derek Prince was one. He also routinely ministered deliverance from bondage to evil spirits. The two often go hand in hand. I cast out evil spirits myself from time to time. It is no big deal. Everyone who is born again has that power and authority.
There are also way too many charlatans and the self deceived.
There can be blockages to healing. Some believers have attitude problems and God allows them to suffer sickness. Paul talks about them to the Corinthians. He rebuked them for their mishandling of Communion. Some even died because of their wrong attitudes.
Lord Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick - all who came to Him. There are many people who would rather be ill than submit to the Lordship of Christ. That's terrible because they miss out on the best possible life, the abundant life that Jesus came to give us. My youngest brother was one such man. He refused prayer and died well before his time.
Satan hates the miraculous. He hates it even more when people are delivered from evil spirits. And deliverance is at the heart of the Kingdom of God. (Matthew 12:28). If we want to see the Kingdom of God on this earth then we'd better get back to casting out demons. (Evil spirits and demons are the same thing).
There are also way too many charlatans and the self deceived.
There can be blockages to healing. Some believers have attitude problems and God allows them to suffer sickness. Paul talks about them to the Corinthians. He rebuked them for their mishandling of Communion. Some even died because of their wrong attitudes.
Lord Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick - all who came to Him. There are many people who would rather be ill than submit to the Lordship of Christ. That's terrible because they miss out on the best possible life, the abundant life that Jesus came to give us. My youngest brother was one such man. He refused prayer and died well before his time.
Satan hates the miraculous. He hates it even more when people are delivered from evil spirits. And deliverance is at the heart of the Kingdom of God. (Matthew 12:28). If we want to see the Kingdom of God on this earth then we'd better get back to casting out demons. (Evil spirits and demons are the same thing).