Hi my name is Gerald , am 57 years old. I’ve been a believer all my life. Recently I felt I had an epiphany and would like to discuss with all of you. It’s the realization that the final point of salvation (of believing Jesus is the savior and to follow Him to heaven) is not just before death (physical death of the body) , but on Judgement Day itself, when all truth is revealed to all humans (who have lived and died) as we all face judgement, and at the point when the Book of Life is open, God gives the invitation to all, to believe and have their names written in the Book of Life and to follow Jesus into the new earth and heaven. Just this simple shift of timeline of salvation from death to Judegment Day, helps to answer and resolve many if not all of the difficult questions people have about the Bible. It helps me to understand the Bible verses in clearer light. I would like to encourage you to test this as you read your Bible to see if this is indeed true. Also being new here , I supposed I may not have posted this in the right thread, I hope you can guide me as to which thread I should post and share this thought with. I am open to receive questions or criticisms for the above comments for which I will try my best to answer them, God willing. Thank you for your kind attention.
Hi new person to this chat , would like to discuss end time
- Thread starter GeraldTan
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Welcome Gerald! You no doubt will receive a lot of comments on your introduction. I’ll make one comment based on a phrase in your post.
“…to believe and have their names written in the Book of Life…” The following two verses come to my mind on that.
“…and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.” (Rev 13:8, RSV)
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.” (Rev 17:8, RSV)
To me this indicates that when we have the privilege to believe in Christ, it then is evidence that our name was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the creation. Now, among the true Christians in the church, there are various views so this is one view to consider. We true believers even have the promise from Christ, that our names will not ever be blotted from this book:
“He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” (Rev 3:5, RSV)
There will be true believers, real brothers in Christ who will disagree with me on this, but in eschatology there is need for us to be humble in our beliefs, or prophetic theories. So, Gerald, I pray you have true joy and pleasure here in discussions of God’s word.
Yes you are right about the Bible in the book of Revelations saying there are people whose names are not written in the Book of Life because they choose to follow the antichrist. The Book of Life reflects our choice in response to God’s salvation plan. On Jusgement Day , when everything is brought to the light, there will be the world’s greatest revival when all of humankind choose to follow Jesus. Revelations 15:4 “…
For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."
All of us believers and unbelievers, people who have never heard of Jesus, will all face God on Judgement Day and when everything is revealed, we will all stand in awe and worship God. This act of choosing to believe God will be reflected in the Book of Life. We will all renounce and repent of our sins and unbelief in the face of God’s judgment . Even unborn babies will be raised to spiritual adulthood during this Judgment Day period and join all of us in this mighty revival
Tall_Timbers
Well-known member
Welcome, GeraldTan. I don't believe the Bible supports your epiphany.
Yes it does
Jesus in His parable of the lost sheep demonstrated how He will go after the 1 lost sheep to restore 100% of His flock in Matthew 18:12-14. God desires to save all of us 1 Timothy 2:4, through our repentance and acceptance of His salvation plan Ezekiel 33:11, and whatever God desires, God will get Job 42:2, and satan will be totally defeated when not a single soul is lost to the lake of fire
Welcome GeraldTan, I think that you will most likely find the type of discussion you want in the "Bible Discussion Forum". As you have noticed by now, some people will respond in this forum, but more will likely be engaged in a similar discussion in the Bible one, and if there is not a discussion that fits what you want, then you can start one.
Gerald, as has been mentioned, this sort of discussion belongs in Bible Discussion Forum. If you are believing in universal salvation, you err by believing that all persons are of Jesus' flock, his sheep; but the Bible makes clear not all are the sheep. There is "eternal punishment" just as there is "eternal life".Yes it does
God desires to save all of us 1 Timothy 2:4, through our repentance and acceptance of His salvation plan Ezekiel 33:11, and whatever God desires, God will get Job 42:2, and satan will be totally defeated when not a single soul is lost to the lake of fire
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” (Matt 18:12-14, RSV)
“It was the feast of the Dedication at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon. So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:22-30, RSV)
“Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matt 25:45-46, RSV)
In Matthew 25:46 “eternal punishment” is translated from the (original written language) Greek word “kolasin aionion." Kolasin means corrective punishment, chastening, correction, to cut-off as in pruning a tree to bare more fruit. "Aionion" is the adjective form of "aion," which means for an age , a long period of time , an eon. Not so much eternity in that sense because there is an end to this long period of time. Together “kolasin aionion” should be more accurately translated to “a long period of corrective punishment” .
Diving deeper into the Bible will reveal that this period is the one thousand year (millennial) reign of Jesus on this earth upon His second coming, when Jesus would select His faithful followers to rule with Him for a thousand years but the unfaithful will go to hell for “kolasin aionion” . After the thousand year period and the final rebellion led by satan is defeated, comes Judgment Day when satan is thrown into the lake of fire together with hell and death. The souls will be taken out of hell for judgment before hell is destroyed in the lake of fire as in Revelations 20:13-14
So may I suggest “eternal punishment” should be understood as “a period of (painful) pruning with a view to bear fruits in the future” of the individuals found to be wanting in the faith. These individuals having gone through hell and upon release , will acknowledge and repent of their evil ways in the presence of God on Judgment Day. God upon seeing their change of spirit , will set them free to worship Him in the new heaven and new earth. This will fulfill the prophecies in Isaiah 61:1 , Luke 4:18 , Psalms 146:7. When Jesus was on earth over 2000 years ago, He did not set any prisoners free, even His cousin John was imprisoned. But on Judgement Day, it will be fulfilled when all the captives from Hell are set free to worship God !
Diving deeper into the Bible will reveal that this period is the one thousand year (millennial) reign of Jesus on this earth upon His second coming, when Jesus would select His faithful followers to rule with Him for a thousand years but the unfaithful will go to hell for “kolasin aionion” . After the thousand year period and the final rebellion led by satan is defeated, comes Judgment Day when satan is thrown into the lake of fire together with hell and death. The souls will be taken out of hell for judgment before hell is destroyed in the lake of fire as in Revelations 20:13-14
So may I suggest “eternal punishment” should be understood as “a period of (painful) pruning with a view to bear fruits in the future” of the individuals found to be wanting in the faith. These individuals having gone through hell and upon release , will acknowledge and repent of their evil ways in the presence of God on Judgment Day. God upon seeing their change of spirit , will set them free to worship Him in the new heaven and new earth. This will fulfill the prophecies in Isaiah 61:1 , Luke 4:18 , Psalms 146:7. When Jesus was on earth over 2000 years ago, He did not set any prisoners free, even His cousin John was imprisoned. But on Judgement Day, it will be fulfilled when all the captives from Hell are set free to worship God !
Gerald, a word of caution for you as you read from these so-called experts in Greek. See if you find any translations, by scholars, who render Matt. 25:46 as anything like "a long period of corrective punishment”. Go to biblegateway.com and go through all of those translations and see if you can find that translation. It is not to be found in a single translation, or anything close to that. You are reading after some pretentious nutcase who is teaching that! One rule I personally embrace, avoid cherry-picking a translation in order to support what I already believe. Read out of God's word, not in to God's word out of our own mind.
Maybe a Moderator who knows how, can move this thread or topic over to Bible Discussion.
Maybe a Moderator who knows how, can move this thread or topic over to Bible Discussion.
Yes I agree that this thread is best served in Bible Discussion page. I will press “report” to highlight this to our moderator to help transfer these threads over. If not, I can start a new thread of discussion in the Bible Discussion page. But may I add this before this thread is transferred: The fact is my epiphany is not a new thing to Christianity. This "age-long" limited time interpretation of aiōnios was widely held (mainstream) in the early Church. For the first 500 years of Christian history, many of the most prominent, Church Fathers who spoke, read, and wrote fluently in New Testament Greek openly taught that hell was temporary and correctional. They called this doctrine apokatastasis—the final restoration of all creation to God., Clement of Alexandria 150-215 AD) was one example of the early Church father who taught that.
Historical evidence demonstrates how widespread this belief was within the early Church. Only later when the Greek manuscripts of the gospel was translated to Latin did the view that punishment was eternal, as popularized by St Augustine of Hippo 354-430 AD which is the view held by many of us Christians today. That is why our English translation of the Bible follows more closely to the Latin interpretation. The early church taught exactly what I am proposing now.
Hi GeroldTan glad you are joining us, welcome to CC! Believers standing before Jesus are at the Bema Seat:
Key Aspects of the Bema Seat
God bless you & yours
Key Aspects of the Bema Seat
- Evaluation of Works: Believers' actions are metaphorically tested by fire. Works done with pure motives and for God's glory survive as "gold, silver, and precious stones". Works done with selfish motives or for worldly gain are "wood, hay, and straw" and are burned up. [1, 2, 3, 4]
- Rewards & Crowns: Those whose works survive receive eternal rewards, often described in the Bible as "crowns" (e.g., the imperishable crown, the crown of righteousness)
God bless you & yours
Yes, I completely agree with you, we believers have been granted free-entry into heaven. In fact if it were not a gift it would be like any other religion a product of us earning salvation. Peter, Paul and Jeremiah mention this separation between the spiritual man and fallen one chosen before birth. As does Genesis when God disregards Esau/Ishmael while he`s still in the womb.
There are two “judgement days” in the Bible. The first one, may I call it the “separation day” when Jesus on His second coming will separate the sheep from the goats, the wise faithfully waiting ones from the foolish ones etc as found in Matthew 25, when Jesus selects the faithful to rule with Him for a thousand years, and those found lacking will be cast out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, in hell , for the period of Christ’s millennial reign (one thousand years) based on original Greek translation, as opposed to “eternal punishment” based on later Latin translations. After the thousand year reign of Jesus , will come the second one: the actual “Judgement Day” of Revelations.Hi GeroldTan glad you are joining us, welcome to CC! Believers standing before Jesus are at the Bema Seat:
Key Aspects of the Bema Seat
The unbelievers not found at Judgement Day in the Lamb's Book of Life are sentenced to eternal death (a separate hearing).
- Evaluation of Works: Believers' actions are metaphorically tested by fire. Works done with pure motives and for God's glory survive as "gold, silver, and precious stones". Works done with selfish motives or for worldly gain are "wood, hay, and straw" and are burned up. [1, 2, 3, 4]
- Rewards & Crowns: Those whose works survive receive eternal rewards, often described in the Bible as "crowns" (e.g., the imperishable crown, the crown of righteousness)
God bless you & yours
Just as Israel has been chosen by God, culminating in the birth of Jesus to a simple Israelite family, to hold the light for all nations that God’s salvation can reach to the ends of the earth (Isaiah 49:6) , so have we been chosen to be the salt and light of the earth (Matthew 5:13-16) to preach the good news of Jesus for the salvation of the world (John 3:16,17 Matthew 28:19-20), to warn them against unbelief and the torment of living without God’s blessings in hell for a thousand years, to anticipate the kingdom of God and to live out life as such in faith here on this earth (Luke 17:21). We do not need to discount unbelievers just yet, because eventually every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:10) in the mightiest revival of the world on that great day of the Lord: Judgement Day ( Revelations 7:9-10)