Initial faith and ongoing faith, is a distinction needed between the two to interpret Scripture accurately?

[Dave123]

The faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God", where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing faith, the life, the indwelling Spirit empowered, and not the initial faith.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The first faith always seems to be about the initial act, like believe, trust in, repent (change of mind), and then the second seems to be about the ongoing faith, as in Jesus is the Author and Perfector of, a gift from God, Spirit empowered.

In the context of the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'? Is there a distinction to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith? I believe there is, but just wanted to hear others thoughts on the matter.

Here's a typical tension that arises from Calvinism. (BTW, I consider myself reformed but do not have this tension in my beliefs.)

Take Ephesians 1:13-14 for example. "Believe" is how we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that it's possible to be born again or justified without the Holy Spirit indwelling us (Romans 8:9-11). This presents a tension with the traditional Calvinist understanding. They stretch that life to before the initial faith, which contrasts scripture, but use the ongoing faith passages to try to justify that idea. It's a mess if you ask me.

Eph 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, *having believed*, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2-3 says that we begin being perfected (the life) as a result of the indwelling. That the indwelling is the result of our initial faith. How can this be if faith is the result of being born again?

I'm thinking that the ongoing faith, the verb, is described as life also. It's speaking of the Spirit powered faith. But the initial faith cannot be the result of being born again, because it's the initial faith that results in the indwelling, which results in being born again. This is why I think that their needs to be a distinction between the initial and the ongoing.

When the Bible speaks of Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith, the same word for 'Author' is used in Acts 3:15, but in that passage, it says that Jesus is the Prince/Author of our 'life'. I'll compare...

Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince (Author) of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

It makes me wonder if the word "faith" in Hebrews is not speaking of "faith" as in believing, or trusting, whether initial or ongoing, but rather, is using the word "faith" as a metaphor for life, just like the word "faith" can be a metaphor for Scripture, only in this case, it means life.

If we don't have life until we have the Spirit indwelling us, and in Galatians 3:2-3 says we come to faith to receive the Spirit.... Paul, speaking of our sanctification even says, having begun in the Spirit (that resulted from the hearing of faith), are we know being perfected by the flesh? The point being, there was no life yet begun when that initial faith happened, but the ongoing faith seems to always be Spirit powered, or not from the flesh, thus it's a gift from God, but only from that point forward, the indwelling.

It appears that Romans 1:17 is speaking of an initial and then ongoing faith.

What part of faith is the life?

What part of faith is the gift of God? Both?

How, if we receive the life after we believe?

Can we be gifted from God with grace in different ways?

How were the OT believers able to believe without the life in them? John 7:38-39. Was it still of grace, just different?

I have my own conclusions, and they do make sense out of Scripture that otherwise didn't add up for me. Just wondering what others think of the idea of making a distinction between our initial faith, which according to Scripture, is only a desire and can possibly be from the flesh (Romans 7:18), though I don't think it is. I believe that it's the presence of God in the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the covenant, and even in God incarnate, and possibly also His Word, the Gospel (Takes breath)...and the ongoing faith called the life, gift of God, grace.

BTW, I believe in total inability [to do good or be righteous from the flesh], not total depravity, being the inability to even desire to do or have that which is good or righteous.

Dave

 

[GWH]

The faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God", where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing faith, the life, the indwelling Spirit empowered, and not the initial faith.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The first faith always seems to be about the initial act, like believe, trust in, repent (change of mind), and then the second seems to be about the ongoing faith, as in Jesus is the Author and Perfector of, a gift from God, Spirit empowered.

In the context of the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'? Is there a distinction to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith? I believe there is, but just wanted to hear others thoughts on the matter.

Here's a typical tension that arises from Calvinism. (BTW, I consider myself reformed but do not have this tension in my beliefs.)

Take Ephesians 1:13-14 for example. "Believe" is how we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that it's possible to be born again or justified without the Holy Spirit indwelling us (Romans 8:9-11). This presents a tension with the traditional Calvinist understanding. They stretch that life to before the initial faith, which contrasts scripture, but use the ongoing faith passages to try to justify that idea. It's a mess if you ask me.

Eph 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, *having believed*, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2-3 says that we begin being perfected (the life) as a result of the indwelling. That the indwelling is the result of our initial faith. How can this be if faith is the result of being born again?

I'm thinking that the ongoing faith, the verb, is described as life also. It's speaking of the Spirit powered faith. But the initial faith cannot be the result of being born again, because it's the initial faith that results in the indwelling, which results in being born again. This is why I think that their needs to be a distinction between the initial and the ongoing.

When the Bible speaks of Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith, the same word for 'Author' is used in Acts 3:15, but in that passage, it says that Jesus is the Prince/Author of our 'life'. I'll compare...

Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince (Author) of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

It makes me wonder if the word "faith" in Hebrews is not speaking of "faith" as in believing, or trusting, whether initial or ongoing, but rather, is using the word "faith" as a metaphor for life, just like the word "faith" can be a metaphor for Scripture, only in this case, it means life.

If we don't have life until we have the Spirit indwelling us, and in Galatians 3:2-3 says we come to faith to receive the Spirit.... Paul, speaking of our sanctification even says, having begun in the Spirit (that resulted from the hearing of faith), are we know being perfected by the flesh? The point being, there was no life yet begun when that initial faith happened, but the ongoing faith seems to always be Spirit powered, or not from the flesh, thus it's a gift from God, but only from that point forward, the indwelling.

It appears that Romans 1:17 is speaking of an initial and then ongoing faith.

What part of faith is the life?

What part of faith is the gift of God? Both?

How, if we receive the life after we believe?

Can we be gifted from God with grace in different ways?

How were the OT believers able to believe without the life in them? John 7:38-39. Was it still of grace, just different?

I have my own conclusions, and they do make sense out of Scripture that otherwise didn't add up for me. Just wondering what others think of the idea of making a distinction between our initial faith, which according to Scripture, is only a desire and can possibly be from the flesh (Romans 7:18), though I don't think it is. I believe that it's the presence of God in the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the covenant, and even in God incarnate, and possibly also His Word, the Gospel (Takes breath)...and the ongoing faith called the life, gift of God, grace.

BTW, I believe in total inability [to do good or be righteous from the flesh], not total depravity, being the inability to even desire to do or have that which is good or righteous.

Dave

Some people seem prone to divorce and divide, whereas my desire is to harmonize and unite.
I think it is valid to distinguish between faith that is essential for satisfying God's requirement for salvation/GRFS
(which I denote as kerygma/preaching) and belief in secondary doctrinal details (which I call didache/teaching).

Discussions on CC after joining last year prompted me to make the following harmonization:

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

I also distinguish between the OT and NT revelation as follows:

The kerygma/Gospel fulfills and supersedes OT revelation, but does not contradict its correct interpretation (Heb. 8:6-13). However, the NT revelation of GRFS will never become obsolete (Phil. 2:9-11, Rev. 22:12-13). Thus, new revelations from God’s Holy Spirit will not contradict the Gospel, although they may express its truth in a different way or form, or else God would be inconsistent or tricky. There may be new wine skins, but no new wine (Matt. 19:17). The OT wine of salvation via obeying the Mosaic Law is superseded by the NT way of cooperation with Christ’s HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:9, Heb. 7:11-10:1), and post-NT inspiration will not be newer wine but rather didachaic information regarding contemporary moral or political issues.
The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy.

 

[studentoftheword]

The faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God", where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing faith, the life, the indwelling Spirit empowered, and not the initial faith.

Have no idea where your getting this initial faith and on going faith from -----

Scripture clearly states there is only one producing Faith -----and that is Christ's faith or as it is called in the book of James Dynamic Faith that He inbirthes in us through His word ----this Faith Saves and this faith has to be Grown so it is Grounded and Rooted in Christ -----to keep you stable in times of trouble ------

-----


Now that being said there are 2 non producing Faiths -----Human Faith and Demonic Faith -----

Human faith comes from God and is given to all people at birth ----Human Faith relies on our 5 senses and will not produce anything -----you can't be saved through human Faith ------

Demonic Faith is ---the demons believed in who Jesus was but they cannot be saved ---so this is a non producing Faith ----

The Book of James describes these 3 Faiths ---for you ---

This One Faith is powerful and sustaining and will keep you strong when the storms of life come against you ------

 

[GWH]

Have no idea where your getting this initial faith and on going faith from -----

Scripture clearly states there is only one producing Faith -----and that is Christ's faith or as it is called in the book of James Dynamic Faith that He inbirthes in us through His word ----this Faith Saves and this faith has to be Grown so it is Grounded and Rooted in Christ -----to keep you stable in times of trouble ------

View attachment 290776-----View attachment 290777


Now that being said there are 2 non producing Faiths -----Human Faith and Demonic Faith -----

Human faith comes from God and is given to all people at birth ----Human Faith relies on our 5 senses and will not produce anything -----you can't be saved through human Faith ------

Demonic Faith is ---the demons believed in who Jesus was but they cannot be saved ---so this is a non producing Faith ----

The Book of James describes these 3 Faiths ---for you ---

This One Faith is powerful and sustaining and will keep you strong when the storms of life come against you ------

God enables every soul to have faith, which may be exercised in Him for salvation or in Satan's lie for damnation (Gen. 3:1-7, Deut. 30:19). When souls repent of believing Satan and seek to cooperate with GW, they receive the HS, who produces godly fruit (Matt. 4:17, 7:7, Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, Gal. 5:22-23, Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7).
Those in hell believe in God, but too late for repentance; today/on earth is the opportunity for salvation (Jam 2:19, Heb. 4:1-11).
The One God is Almighty (Deut. 6:4, Gen. 17:1). Saving faith merely connects souls or gives them access to God's power to love (Rom. 5:2, Eph. 2:18, 3:16-19).

 

[studentoftheword]

God enables every soul to have faith,

No God grants every soul human or intellectual faith -----not Saving Faith --Saving Faith comes from Hearing the word -----

intellectual faith believes in what you ---see --hear --feel ---taste and touch ------Saving Faith believes in the unseen -----

 

[dkontner]

John 8:30-47
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[studentoftheword]

In James 2, the author describes three types of faith to explain that genuine belief must result in action.
These are
dead faith (intellectual agreement without action),

demonic faith (mental and emotional belief without submission),

and dynamic faith (living faith that transforms the whole person through obedience). [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

1. Dead Faith

The Concept: This is faith that is entirely intellectual. It involves professing belief or knowing correct doctrine, but it lacks any corresponding actions or lifestyle changes. [1, 2]

The Biblical Example: James illustrates this with someone who tells a starving, unclothed person to "stay warm and eat well," but provides no actual food or clothes. [1]

The Verdict: James concludes that faith by itself—without deeds—is completely "dead and useless". [1]

2. Demonic Faith

The Concept: This is a frighteningly passive faith that goes beyond just intellectual acknowledgment to include an emotional reaction (e.g., trembling at God's power). [1]

The Biblical Example: James brings up demons who believe in God's existence and shudder, yet completely refuse to surrender to His lordship or obey Him. [1, 2]

The Verdict: Demonic faith proves that simply believing facts about God does not save a person if it fails to produce a surrendered, changed life. [1, 2]

3. Dynamic Faith

The Concept: This is the only type of true, saving faith. It engages the mind (understanding truth), the heart (desiring truth), and the will (acting upon it). [1, 2]

The Biblical Examples: James points to Abraham (who offered his son Isaac on the altar) and Rahab (who hid the spies). Their faith was made visible and validated by their actions. [1, 2, 4]

The Verdict: Dynamic faith demonstrates that works and obedience are the essential, natural evidence of genuine faith. [, 2]

 

[2Christ]

The faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God", where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing faith, the life, the indwelling Spirit empowered, and not the initial faith.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The first faith always seems to be about the initial act, like believe, trust in, repent (change of mind), and then the second seems to be about the ongoing faith, as in Jesus is the Author and Perfector of, a gift from God, Spirit empowered.

In the context of the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'? Is there a distinction to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith? I believe there is, but just wanted to hear others thoughts on the matter.

Here's a typical tension that arises from Calvinism. (BTW, I consider myself reformed but do not have this tension in my beliefs.)

Take Ephesians 1:13-14 for example. "Believe" is how we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that it's possible to be born again or justified without the Holy Spirit indwelling us (Romans 8:9-11). This presents a tension with the traditional Calvinist understanding. They stretch that life to before the initial faith, which contrasts scripture, but use the ongoing faith passages to try to justify that idea. It's a mess if you ask me.

Eph 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, *having believed*, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2-3 says that we begin being perfected (the life) as a result of the indwelling. That the indwelling is the result of our initial faith. How can this be if faith is the result of being born again?

I'm thinking that the ongoing faith, the verb, is described as life also. It's speaking of the Spirit powered faith. But the initial faith cannot be the result of being born again, because it's the initial faith that results in the indwelling, which results in being born again. This is why I think that their needs to be a distinction between the initial and the ongoing.

When the Bible speaks of Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith, the same word for 'Author' is used in Acts 3:15, but in that passage, it says that Jesus is the Prince/Author of our 'life'. I'll compare...

Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince (Author) of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

It makes me wonder if the word "faith" in Hebrews is not speaking of "faith" as in believing, or trusting, whether initial or ongoing, but rather, is using the word "faith" as a metaphor for life, just like the word "faith" can be a metaphor for Scripture, only in this case, it means life.

If we don't have life until we have the Spirit indwelling us, and in Galatians 3:2-3 says we come to faith to receive the Spirit.... Paul, speaking of our sanctification even says, having begun in the Spirit (that resulted from the hearing of faith), are we know being perfected by the flesh? The point being, there was no life yet begun when that initial faith happened, but the ongoing faith seems to always be Spirit powered, or not from the flesh, thus it's a gift from God, but only from that point forward, the indwelling.

It appears that Romans 1:17 is speaking of an initial and then ongoing faith.

What part of faith is the life?

What part of faith is the gift of God? Both?

How, if we receive the life after we believe?

Can we be gifted from God with grace in different ways?

How were the OT believers able to believe without the life in them? John 7:38-39. Was it still of grace, just different?

I have my own conclusions, and they do make sense out of Scripture that otherwise didn't add up for me. Just wondering what others think of the idea of making a distinction between our initial faith, which according to Scripture, is only a desire and can possibly be from the flesh (Romans 7:18), though I don't think it is. I believe that it's the presence of God in the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the covenant, and even in God incarnate, and possibly also His Word, the Gospel (Takes breath)...and the ongoing faith called the life, gift of God, grace.

BTW, I believe in total inability [to do good or be righteous from the flesh], not total depravity, being the inability to even desire to do or have that which is good or righteous.

Dave

Scripture supports a distinction between initial faith (believing the gospel) and ongoing faith (living and persevering in Christ), but it does not usually present them as two fundamentally different kinds of faith. They are better understood as the beginning and continuation of the same faith relationship. The main debate arises over whether God's regenerating work produces the initial act of faith or whether faith precedes regeneration, not over whether ongoing faith is Spirit-empowered. Virtually all sides agree that ongoing faith is sustained by the Spirit.

 

[GWH]

No God grants every soul human or intellectual faith -----not Saving Faith --Saving Faith comes from Hearing the word -----

intellectual faith believes in what you ---see --hear --feel ---taste and touch ------Saving Faith believes in the unseen -----

Have you ever considered using both-and logic?
Faith is free to believe what both the five physical senses and the unseen reveal.
Faith in GW/HS saves but in Satan condemns.

 

[Aussie52]

A study of the word 'believe' in John's Gospel and Epistles reveals that it is a present continuous action, not just the act of a moment.
This means that it is not just an initial believing that obtains eternal life but rather a continual believing to the very end.
Saving faith is not the act of the moment but an attitude of a lifetime.

 

[studentoftheword]

Have you ever considered using both-and logic?

Have you ever considered believing Scripture ---that says Saving Faith defies logic ------

Satan's hook is fear ----fears contaminates Faith --------

-------that is LOGIC WORKING Rightly

 

[dkontner]

The Greeks seek after wisdom.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24​

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[GWH]

Have you ever considered believing Scripture ---that says Saving Faith defies logic ------

Satan's hook is fear ----fears contaminates Faith --------

View attachment 290786-------that is LOGIC WORKING Rightly

A student of Logos understands the importance of harmonizing Scripture.

 

[NightTwister]

Folks still trying to make it all about themselves. It isn't.

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. -- Gal 2:20

 

[HeIsHere]

The faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God", where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing faith, the life, the indwelling Spirit empowered, and not the initial faith.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The first faith always seems to be about the initial act, like believe, trust in, repent (change of mind), and then the second seems to be about the ongoing faith, as in Jesus is the Author and Perfector of, a gift from God, Spirit empowered.

In the context of the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'? Is there a distinction to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith? I believe there is, but just wanted to hear others thoughts on the matter.

Here's a typical tension that arises from Calvinism. (BTW, I consider myself reformed but do not have this tension in my beliefs.)

Take Ephesians 1:13-14 for example. "Believe" is how we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that it's possible to be born again or justified without the Holy Spirit indwelling us (Romans 8:9-11). This presents a tension with the traditional Calvinist understanding. They stretch that life to before the initial faith, which contrasts scripture, but use the ongoing faith passages to try to justify that idea. It's a mess if you ask me.

Eph 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, *having believed*, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2-3 says that we begin being perfected (the life) as a result of the indwelling. That the indwelling is the result of our initial faith. How can this be if faith is the result of being born again?

I'm thinking that the ongoing faith, the verb, is described as life also. It's speaking of the Spirit powered faith. But the initial faith cannot be the result of being born again, because it's the initial faith that results in the indwelling, which results in being born again. This is why I think that their needs to be a distinction between the initial and the ongoing.

When the Bible speaks of Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith, the same word for 'Author' is used in Acts 3:15, but in that passage, it says that Jesus is the Prince/Author of our 'life'. I'll compare...

Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Acts 3:15 and killed the Prince (Author) of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

It makes me wonder if the word "faith" in Hebrews is not speaking of "faith" as in believing, or trusting, whether initial or ongoing, but rather, is using the word "faith" as a metaphor for life, just like the word "faith" can be a metaphor for Scripture, only in this case, it means life.

If we don't have life until we have the Spirit indwelling us, and in Galatians 3:2-3 says we come to faith to receive the Spirit.... Paul, speaking of our sanctification even says, having begun in the Spirit (that resulted from the hearing of faith), are we know being perfected by the flesh? The point being, there was no life yet begun when that initial faith happened, but the ongoing faith seems to always be Spirit powered, or not from the flesh, thus it's a gift from God, but only from that point forward, the indwelling.

It appears that Romans 1:17 is speaking of an initial and then ongoing faith.

What part of faith is the life?

What part of faith is the gift of God? Both?

How, if we receive the life after we believe?

Can we be gifted from God with grace in different ways?

How were the OT believers able to believe without the life in them? John 7:38-39. Was it still of grace, just different?

I have my own conclusions, and they do make sense out of Scripture that otherwise didn't add up for me. Just wondering what others think of the idea of making a distinction between our initial faith, which according to Scripture, is only a desire and can possibly be from the flesh (Romans 7:18), though I don't think it is. I believe that it's the presence of God in the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the covenant, and even in God incarnate, and possibly also His Word, the Gospel (Takes breath)...and the ongoing faith called the life, gift of God, grace.

BTW, I believe in total inability [to do good or be righteous from the flesh], not total depravity, being the inability to even desire to do or have that which is good or righteous.

Dave

I agree there is a distinction from first faith and ongoing faith.
Since initial faith is condition set by God it cannot be a gift and while there have been theologians who have tried to shoe horn the concept into scripture upon closer examination it is shown to be false.

When scripture states "He is the author and finisher of our faith" there is school of thought which does not interpret this verse to mean on an individual level but rather that Christ Jesus is the one who is the pioneer, who set the way and then completed His mission.

 

[studentoftheword]

Strong's Concordance

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief , . The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4

Worth repeating Folks -------and therefore distinct from human belief

We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . .

genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give .

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God.


4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty).
In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Worth Repeating Folks ------births within the receptive believer
We have free will to Accept or Reject ------God's Saving Faith

In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse
Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will

​

More on faith . .​

In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!

Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him"

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation"
"Faith is always a response to a divine revelation"
"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by reason of existing"
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God"
"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for .
with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . .

if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting,
you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability,
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order===

 

[studentoftheword]

Topical Bible: The Role of Faith in Interpretation

The Role of Faith in Interpretation

Topical Encyclopedia

Faith plays a pivotal role in the interpretation of the Bible, serving as both a lens and a foundation for understanding Scripture.
From a conservative Christian perspective, faith is not merely an intellectual assent but a trust in God and His revealed Word. This trust influences how believers approach, understand, and apply biblical texts.

Faith as a Prerequisite for Understanding

The Bible itself underscores the necessity of faith for proper comprehension. Hebrews 11:6 states, "And without faith, it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

This verse highlights that faith is essential for approaching God and, by extension, His Word. Faith opens the heart and mind to divine truths that might otherwise remain obscured.

The Holy Spirit's Role

Faith in interpretation is closely linked to the work of the Holy Spirit. According to John 16:13 , "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth."

The Holy Spirit, given to believers, aids in understanding Scripture, illuminating its meaning and application.

Faith in the Spirit's guidance ensures that interpretation is not solely a human endeavor but a divine partnership.

Faith and the Authority of Scripture

A conservative view holds that faith affirms the authority and inerrancy of Scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16 declares,
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness."

Faith accepts the Bible as the ultimate authority, shaping how texts are interpreted and applied to life. This belief in the Bible's divine origin and authority influences interpretative methods, prioritizing a literal and historical-grammatical approach.

Faith and Contextual Understanding

While faith is essential, it does not negate the importance of context in interpretation.

Faithful interpretation involves understanding the historical, cultural, and literary contexts of biblical passages. Acts 17:11 commends the Bereans for examining the Scriptures daily to verify Paul's teachings, demonstrating that faith and diligent study go hand in hand.

Faith and the Unity of Scripture

Faith also recognizes the unity and coherence of the Bible.

Believers approach Scripture with the conviction that it is a unified narrative of God's redemptive plan.

This perspective influences interpretation by seeking harmony between passages and understanding individual texts within the broader biblical account.

Faith and Application

Finally, faith in interpretation is not merely about understanding but also about application. James 1:22 exhorts, "Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

Faith compels believers to live out the truths they discern in Scripture, integrating them into daily life and practice.

In summary, faith is integral to interpreting the Bible, shaping how believers approach, understand, and apply its teachings.

It involves trust in God's revelation, reliance on the Holy Spirit, acknowledgment of Scripture's authority, and a commitment to living out its truths.

 

[Dave123]

I'm short on time today. I'll try to get back later or tomorrow. I had a lot on my Christian chat forum plate today.

Dave

 

[Dave123]

If there were ever proof that a distinction needed to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith, it would be this thread.

Paul vs. James. You know the debate. It would be a valid argument to say that Paul and James were contradicting each other, and each contradicting themselves for that matter, if the distinction between the initial faith and the ongoing faith were not made.

Paul is speaking of the initial faith, and he argues that it's that initial faith that places us into Christ and justifies us. Everything we need is given to us when we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, which places us in Christ Jesus, the one true Church. The righteousness of God imputed, His atonement applies, and when we are placed into Christ by that initial faith, we are also placed into His death, and raised up with Him, born again, and able to begin the process of being conformed to what God already legally reckons us to be in Christ. Jesus did it, we cannot add to that without poisoning the well.

James is speaking of the ongoing faith, the life that we receive as a result of that initial faith. The ongoing faith is evidenced by works and is, in and of itself, an evidence of the genuineness of our claims to already have that justification and that life already in Christ. We don't get more justified by our works, nor do we maintain that justification by our works. We only evidence what we already are.

Paul justification before God, initial faith only. That's what p[laces us in Christ.

James, justification before men and ourselves in our claims to have a genuine faith in Jesus Christ and the life in us, ***evidence***.

Paul and James are not standing toe to toe, rather they are standing back to back defending the Gospel against two different attacks. Paul, defending the Gospel against legalism, any attempt to justify oneself with his works, even those trying to earn God's grace with works. James, against those who claim to have and believe that they have a genuine faith when they are not evidencing it by their works. Harmony.

Dave

 

[PaulThomson]

No God grants every soul human or intellectual faith -----not Saving Faith --Saving Faith comes from Hearing the word -----

intellectual faith believes in what you ---see --hear --feel ---taste and touch ------Saving Faith believes in the unseen -----

Human faith believes in justice, love, truth, electrons and viruses, which are not seen. Why do you make the distinction between intellectual faith and saving faith as one between faith in the seen and faith in the unseen?

Personally, I do not see anu difference between the faith that saves and the faith that believes the sun will rise tomorrow or the faith that England existThey all seem to me to be the same faith, but that same faith seems simply to be focused upon different objects. SMy saving faith focuses on things reported in the Word of God. My faith in England’s existence is focussed on things reported by documentaries, photos, magazines and people who claim to have come from England, etc.