1948 Not THE Fulfillment of Prophecy

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Except it wasn't. Jews had lived in the land for centuries. May 14, 1948 was merely a political proclamation of men.

Israel is considered "born in a day" because of the unprecedented, legal reestablishment of the modern State of Israel on May 14, 1948
The apparent paradox of being both ancient and "born in a day" is resolved by looking at how the modern state came to be:

• International Recognition: On November 29, 1947, the United Nations passed Resolution 181, calling for the partition of British-controlled Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish states.
• The Declaration: On May 14, 1948, just before the British Mandate officially expired at midnight, Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion publicly read the ⁠Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel in Tel Aviv. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• Overnight Sovereignty: Within minutes of the proclamation, the United States recognized the new government, and the Soviet Union followed shortly after. A sovereign government, legal framework, and defined borders were established instantly. [1, 2, 3] AI

"Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day, or a nation be brought forth in a moment?" — Isaiah 66:8

 

[dkontner]

Revelation 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

[HeIsHere]

Highly likely.
Here is a Wikipedia link to that discussion.

Brook of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, I looked into this as well but then forgot to source the information..Thanks!!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Israel is considered "born in a day" because of the unprecedented, legal reestablishment of the modern State of Israel on May 14, 1948
The apparent paradox of being both ancient and "born in a day" is resolved by looking at how the modern state came to be:

• International Recognition: On November 29, 1947, the United Nations passed Resolution 181, calling for the partition of British-controlled Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish states.
• The Declaration: On May 14, 1948, just before the British Mandate officially expired at midnight, Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion publicly read the ⁠Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel in Tel Aviv. [1, 2, 3, 4]
• Overnight Sovereignty: Within minutes of the proclamation, the United States recognized the new government, and the Soviet Union followed shortly after. A sovereign government, legal framework, and defined borders were established instantly. [1, 2, 3] AI

"Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day, or a nation be brought forth in a moment?" — Isaiah 66:8

A nation ruled by men like all other nations, which God considers rebellion and a rejection of his reign over them. Those days are done and God's not doing them again.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 1 Samuel 8:4-5​

And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 8:7​

God has a holy nation now that will never perish or be uprooted

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9​

 

[Musicmaster]

Highly likely.
Here is a Wikipedia link to that discussion.

Brook of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ah, wikipedia...I saw it on the internet...

MM

 

[Beekeeper]

Ah, wikipedia...I saw it on the internet...

MM

I am not a great fan of Wikipedia either.
I use it because everyone knows it and consider it a few steps better than ai.
That debate has been around for a very long time and you can find references to it in many places.

A much more important question is exactly who is qualified to receive the promises of Abraham?

Many run from that question by accusing me of antisemitism for asking it in the first place.
Regardless of where the land borders are however, any genetic answer seems to involve the racist subjugation of the "unqualified" peoples that already live in that land.
Ironically many of these "inferiors" are at least in part the physical descendants of Shem and Abraham.
Since the New Testament there has also been much mixing of blood by the Christians, and the bloodlines of Isaac and Ishmael are also mingled.
Some attempt to answer the question by declaring certain sects of Judaism as having authority to define the qualified.
The problem here is that we have moved from Genetics to religion, and religions have converts.
I am a New Testament believing Christian, so I would be inclined to respect the answers provided in the NT.
I already have a clear position on what those answers are BTW,
Though I sense that many here feel religiously obligated to defend a position that makes no sense even to themselves.
I just want to hear it from you.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

God has a holy nation now that will never perish or be uprooted

Yet that is the promise to the Jews, brought back to their land, never to be uprooted.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Yet that is the promise to the Jews, brought back to their land, never to be uprooted.

Actually it's not. God declared that to be Israel's destiny if they obeyed his voice (Exodus 19:5-6), but they didn't and broke his covenant at Mt Sinai within 40 days. So God put that on the shelf until Christ, where it is fulfilled in those who obey his voice by believing in him, as described by Peter in 1 Peter 2:9.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Actually it's not. God declared that to be Israel's destiny if they obeyed his voice (Exodus 19:5-6), but they didn't and broke his covenant at Mt Sinai within 40 days. So God put that on the shelf until Christ, where it is fulfilled in those who obey his voice by believing in him, as described by Peter in 1 Peter 2:9.

Abrahamic covenant was unconditional.

 

[Beekeeper]

Abrahamic covenant was unconditional.

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Which leads to my question:
Exactly who was the Abrahamic covenant made with?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Abrahamic covenant was unconditional.

Which was made with Abraham and which promised the land to Christ (Galatians 3:16). It had nothing to do with Israel other than he being their king.

 

[Vucesa]

You conveniently, or ignorantly, left out this verse that clearly states God gave all of the promised land to Israel.

And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Joshua 21:43-45​

And these verses that clearly state Israel ruled over all of the land from the border of Egypt to the Euphrates River.

David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. 2 Samuel 8:3​

​

And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the [Euphrates] river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life. 1 Kings 4:21​

What's also clear is that dispensationalist/zionists don't believe what all of scripture says.

The New Covenant extends the promise to include all the earth for those who are in Christ (Rom. 4:13). The New Covenant is built on better promises.

 

[dkontner]

Romans 11:17-24​

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[ZNP]

At best, 1948 was a staging of future fulfillment of prophecy, not THE fulfillment of it. If we read the Bible for what it says, Abraham was promised approximately 1.2 million square kilometers of land. Israel today occupies at most about 2% of all that was promised to Abraham and his descendants. That is NOT a fulfillment as of yet. Israel is currently a political/military state with most of the Jews still scattered across the earth, not yet gathered together in that land. With about 50% of Jews are Russian-speaking Jews living in Jerusalem and the surrounding few towns and cities. There are far more orthodox Jews living abroad from Israel than are currently living within its tiny little borders.

For reference, see:

• Genesis 12:1–3 — initial call; promise of a land to go to.
• Genesis 12:7 — promise: "To your offspring I will give this land."
• Genesis 13:14–17 — promise of all the land that Abram can see to his offspring.
• Genesis 15:7–21 — covenant: God specifies territory for Abram's descendants (lists boundaries, including "from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates").
• Genesis 17:1–8 — promise of land and an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants.
• Genesis 22:15–18 — reaffirmation of blessing and numerous descendants (implied possession).
• Exodus 6:2–8 — God reiterates to Moses the promise made to the patriarchs that He will bring the Israelites into the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
• Leviticus 25:23 — land is described as a possession for the Israelites (ties into covenant land concepts).
• Deuteronomy 1:8; 34:4 — restatements of the land promise to the people.
• Joshua 1:2–4 — God’s promise to Joshua: all the land shown to Moses (boundaries described).
• Psalm 105:8–11 — poetic restatement of the covenant and land promises to Abraham and his offspring.

Brief notes:

• Genesis 15:18–21 contains the most explicit boundary language (listing peoples/places and the "river of Egypt" to "Euphrates").
• Different passages emphasize the promise in covenantal, narrative, and poetic forms across Torah, historical books, and Psalms.

So what you are basically saying is that any Jewish person who refuses to go to Israel can prevent the accomplishment of the word of God?

I saw this attitude when I was preaching the gospel. People think it is our job to convert them so as long as they say no, we have to keep trying to convert them. No, it is not our job to convert anyone. Our job is to be a witness, what the jury does with that witness will determine how they are judged by God. After 70 years in Babylon the door was opened for the Jews to return. Only a remnant returned, many stayed in Babylon. However, the names of all that returned were listed in the Bible and the names of those that chose not to were not. The fact that some stayed in Babylon did not change the fact that Ezra and Nehemiah were walking according to the word of God and were on the narrow way that leads to life.

This leads us to understand why God caused them to be carried away. They had become a mixed multitude with many choosing sin and the ways of the pagans. When God sends them away all those who have forsaken God in their heart will stay in Babylon and so when it is time to return it will only be the ones who actually care for the things of God. They would leave their homes, and jobs, and all the things of the world that would attract you. This process removes the dross from the silver.

So no, this is an incredibly arrogant attitude you have that because some people of Jewish descent did not return to Israel it invalidates it, on the contrary they have only invalidated their own standing with God while those who did return elevated their standing with God. "Many are called, but few are chosen"

 

[Beekeeper]

So what you are basically saying is that any Jewish person who refuses to go to Israel can prevent the accomplishment of the word of God?

I saw this attitude when I was preaching the gospel. People think it is our job to convert them so as long as they say no, we have to keep trying to convert them. No, it is not our job to convert anyone. Our job is to be a witness, what the jury does with that witness will determine how they are judged by God. After 70 years in Babylon the door was opened for the Jews to return. Only a remnant returned, many stayed in Babylon. However, the names of all that returned were listed in the Bible and the names of those that chose not to were not. The fact that some stayed in Babylon did not change the fact that Ezra and Nehemiah were walking according to the word of God and were on the narrow way that leads to life.

This leads us to understand why God caused them to be carried away. They had become a mixed multitude with many choosing sin and the ways of the pagans. When God sends them away all those who have forsaken God in their heart will stay in Babylon and so when it is time to return it will only be the ones who actually care for the things of God. They would leave their homes, and jobs, and all the things of the world that would attract you. This process removes the dross from the silver.

So no, this is an incredibly arrogant attitude you have that because some people of Jewish descent did not return to Israel it invalidates it, on the contrary they have only invalidated their own standing with God while those who did return elevated their standing with God. "Many are called, but few are chosen"

But the remnant did not just return to Jerusalem.
They were restored to faith in God.
A much more likely fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 than 1948 was.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

• Leviticus 25:23 — land is described as a possession for the Israelites (ties into covenant land concepts).

Sloppy exegesis. That verse specifically says that the land is God's possession, not Israel's, and they were merely guests and resident aliens in the land with him. Their residency in the land was subject to friendly relationship with the owner of the land

 

[Beekeeper]

The New Covenant extends the promise to include all the earth for those who are in Christ (Rom. 4:13). The New Covenant is built on better promises.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

 

[ZNP]

But the remnant did not just return to Jerusalem.
They were restored to faith in God.
A much more likely fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 than 1948 was.

Not initially. Initially they returned with foreign wives. The prophecy in Ezekiel says very clearly that they walk out of the graves (holocaust) and into the good land and that sinew and flesh cover the bones, but they still don't have the breath. In Hebrew the word for breath is the word for Spirit. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy over them. That is just like Genesis 1 where God is brooding over the darkness and speaks not being as being. The Bible says that during the tribulation the two witnesses will be prophesying to Israel and after 42 months they will be killed and their bodies lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days and when they are raised the whole world sees it. What it is saying is that the two witnesses have been preaching about the death and resurrection of Jesus and so when they are killed some refuse to let them be buried bur instead live stream two dead bodies for 3 and 1/2 days because they want to see if the resurrection is true. That is when breath is breathed into them, that is when they say "blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord". They are talking about the two witnesses that came and preached to them and gave their lives.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Not initially. Initially they returned with foreign wives.

But they returned to Jerusalem in faith and were restored to God regardless of the imperfection of their obedience. Once they were informed of their sin, they grieved, repented and got rid of their foreign wives. That demonstrated their faith and determination to follow God and obey his voice

 

[Beekeeper]

Sloppy exegesis. That verse specifically says that the land is God's possession, not Israel's, and they were merely guests and resident aliens in the land with him. Their residency in the land was subject to friendly relationship with the owner of the land

Deuteronomy 28 (blessings and the curse) teaches that living in the holy land under God also came with conditions.