It's obvious you don't. You think it's Calvinism. Guess we will have to change the opening of Mark to suit you.
Calvinism is Gospel !
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It's obvious you don't. You think it's Calvinism. Guess we will have to change the opening of Mark to suit you.
So then explain why Jesus is the good news, otherwise talk is cheap. A mormon will say Jesus is good newsYour right, talk is cheap, so why are you still gabbing on? Is Jesus the Good News or not? You seem to think He isn't. Tsk, tsk! If that is the case then you wouldn't understand even if I explained to you the Gospel.
In God’s word it is clear that by God’s sovereign will he first regenerates us, and then from the new birth, comes faith.
“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.” (Eze 36:25-27 NRSVue) *Is it man’s will, or God’s will?
“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (Joh 1:12-13 NRSVue)
“Everyone who believes (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (past tense), and everyone who loves the parent loves the child.” (1Jn 5:1 NRSVue)
“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ but of suffering for him as well,” (Php 1:29 NRSVue)
“Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (Joh 3:7-8 NRSVue)
“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away, …No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.” (Joh 6:37, 44,
“A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul.” (Act 16:14 NRSVue)
“When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Act 13:48 NRSVue)
“All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Eph 2:3-9 NRSVue)
“Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but much more now in my absence, work on your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Php 2:12-13 NRSVue)
“In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave birth to us by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.” (Jas 1:18 NRSVue)
“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.” (Eze 36:25-27 NRSVue) *Is it man’s will, or God’s will?
“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.” (Joh 1:12-13 NRSVue)
“Everyone who believes (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (past tense), and everyone who loves the parent loves the child.” (1Jn 5:1 NRSVue)
“For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ but of suffering for him as well,” (Php 1:29 NRSVue)
“Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (Joh 3:7-8 NRSVue)
“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away, …No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me, and I will raise that person up on the last day.” (Joh 6:37, 44,
“A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul.” (Act 16:14 NRSVue)
“When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord, and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers.” (Act 13:48 NRSVue)
“All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, doing the will of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else, but God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Eph 2:3-9 NRSVue)
“Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but much more now in my absence, work on your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Php 2:12-13 NRSVue)
“In fulfillment of his own purpose he gave birth to us by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of first fruits of his creatures.” (Jas 1:18 NRSVue)
The god of this world gives everyone free will, and we know how that went. Around 2 billion men, women and children expressing their free will, were drowned by the God of heaven and earth.
I thank God, He didn't leave me dead in my free will. Genesis 6:5 describes mankind's free will "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Notice God didn't see the wickedness of "a man" or a "bunch of men" or "a nation of men", no He saw the wickedness of "man", that translates to "mankind".
Do you suppose that you're any different to those preflood people, if so what is it that makes you think you're better or "holier than them".
Are you going to answer the questions I asked? Here they are again:
Did God do something that allowed you to believe?
Or are you just like some here who claim they needed no help from God at all?
That people have evolved from whenever, who needs God to open our
eyes and open our ears and circumcise our hearts so we may love Him?
Were you able to believe before then?
When you were a slave to sin, blinded by the god of this age, refusing to come into the Light,
opposed to the spiritual things of God, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or
comprehend ... you want us to believe you would have chosen to believe then?
That captive to the will of the devil while you served the law of sin, you were free to choose?
Well, it has yet to be clearly demonstrated by the TULIP/Cannot Believe Sect that God took from fallen man from birth the
ability to believe in/trust in the Good News of Christ Jesus through the power of His word unless regenerated/given a new heart etc.,
and every other term pulled from scripture out of context.
Nope not one verse that teaches this... from birth........ the onus is on your system to show this to be true, this is never accomplished by stringing verses together out of context written for different purposes and to different peoples.
I understand this and I understand your point but for this system to have gained traction is recent years I believe falls on the shoulders of believers to oppose this false system.
I cannot fault the people of Calvin's time as they were mostly biblically illiterate, but the resurgence of the of the past 40 years and this stealth Calvinism which has been well documented, it is a failure of a weak Western Evangelical church.
Pelagian heretics deny what Scripture says of man.
Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18
Are you equally thankful for those He decided to leave in sin, since they are unable to believe in/trust in the good faith offer of Christ Jesus?
Sinful men babble on and on how they disagree with how God says He operates; but I'll stay with and believe God's word!
O LORD, our Sovereign, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens.(Psa 8:1 NRSVue)
Therefore says the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel: Surely I will pour out my wrath on my enemies and avenge myself on my foes! (Isa 1:24 NRSVue) *The term “Sovereign, the LORD” is found 6 times in Isaiah
But he stands alone, and who can dissuade him? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13 NRSVue)
Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Psa 135:6 NRSVue)
He was driven from human society, and his mind was made like that of an animal. His dwelling was with the wild asses, he was fed grass like oxen, and his body was bathed with the dew of heaven, until he learned that the Most High God has sovereignty over the kingdom of mortals and sets over it whomever he will. (Dan 5:21 NRSVue)
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” (Dan 4:35 NRSVue)
When they heard it, they raised their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and everything in them, it is you who said by the Holy Spirit through our ancestor David, your servant: ‘Why did the gentiles rage and the peoples imagine vain things? (Act 4:24-25 NRSVue)
which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. (1Ti 6:15 NRSVue)
they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” Rev 6:10
The most horrible of sins was “predestined”
“For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” (Act 4:27-28 NRSVue)
*God predestined it, but it was gentiles and Jews who did it!
“But we speak God’s wisdom, a hidden mystery, which God decreed before the ages for our glory and which none of the rulers of this age understood, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (1Co 2:7-8 NRSVue)
It was God who decreed the crucifixion, but it was the “rulers” of that age who did it!
O LORD, our Sovereign, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens.(Psa 8:1 NRSVue)
Therefore says the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel: Surely I will pour out my wrath on my enemies and avenge myself on my foes! (Isa 1:24 NRSVue) *The term “Sovereign, the LORD” is found 6 times in Isaiah
But he stands alone, and who can dissuade him? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13 NRSVue)
Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Psa 135:6 NRSVue)
He was driven from human society, and his mind was made like that of an animal. His dwelling was with the wild asses, he was fed grass like oxen, and his body was bathed with the dew of heaven, until he learned that the Most High God has sovereignty over the kingdom of mortals and sets over it whomever he will. (Dan 5:21 NRSVue)
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” (Dan 4:35 NRSVue)
When they heard it, they raised their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and everything in them, it is you who said by the Holy Spirit through our ancestor David, your servant: ‘Why did the gentiles rage and the peoples imagine vain things? (Act 4:24-25 NRSVue)
which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. (1Ti 6:15 NRSVue)
they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” Rev 6:10
The most horrible of sins was “predestined”
“For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” (Act 4:27-28 NRSVue)
*God predestined it, but it was gentiles and Jews who did it!
“But we speak God’s wisdom, a hidden mystery, which God decreed before the ages for our glory and which none of the rulers of this age understood, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (1Co 2:7-8 NRSVue)
It was God who decreed the crucifixion, but it was the “rulers” of that age who did it!
I'd say that jesus would be sarcastic or idiomatic considering the rest scripture
There are several books that show that faith is not a work.
Yeah, I've read the whole thing twice now. It's bread and butter Calvinism. Total depravity means man cannot do good. And it's a completely irrelevant point... the video I posted shows that. The video is a great response if you take the time to think of how it applies to Calvinism. You'll see Calvinism is not necessary, at the very least and if you can't agree to that after the video... only God can help you then.
You seem to simplify it in a way not intended, but that is a common extreme others fall prey to, whereas what Scripture says in
the words of Jesus Christ Himself is that there are none good and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Maybe start from there.
It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the
Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will,
emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being
including who we are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are
like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.
Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:
1—no one is without sin,
2—no one seeks after God,
3—there is no one who is good,
4—their speech is corrupted by sin,
5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and
6—above all, they have no fear of God.
So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source
Right from the horses mouth so to speak... "cannot do good is correct"
Original sin, then, may be defined a hereditary corruption and depravity of our nature, extending to all the parts of the soul, which first makes us obnoxious to the wrath of God, and then produces in us works which in Scripture are termed works of the flesh. . . . their whole nature is, as it were, a seed-bed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God. . . . For our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle.
(Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book II, ch. 1, 8)
. . . such is the depravity of his nature, that he cannot move and act except in the direction of evil. If this is true, the thing not obscurely expressed is, that he is under a necessity of sinning.
(Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book II, ch. 3, 5)
I have no idea what I would have told the jailer.
For there was so much talk going on with the people at that time, and we have no idea what was going about town with people talking.
The verse below also supports this point, though its meaning may not be immediately clear on the surface and requires close reading. Peter refers to Jesus as “our Saviour,” indicating that Peter and his audience were already saved. Peter also states that their faith was obtained through the righteousness of Jesus Christ, their Savior. This leads to the conclusion that salvation came first, and faith followed from it—because Jesus Christ was their Savior and their faith was obtained through Him as Savior, salvation had to occur first.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Yeah, everyone knows this, and this is an irrelevant point.
It's often said by Calvinists and it never mattered.
Faith is NOT a good work so the fallen nature of man, total depravity is irrelevant. Fallen man can possibly have faith because faith is not a good work.
Great point!! .... very helpful too!
Possibly as TULIP progressed they saw this opening, crack in the system so to speak, and then re-framed it to "Total Inability" .. which is definitely relevant and not Biblical I believe.
I am sure if I spent the time I could find the evolution of these changes over time.
Faith is a gift but many free willers deny this. They like to believe that they generated something good out of the wickedness of their God hating heart, and in order to do that they deny what Scriptures plainly teach on the fallen nature of man... You know Jesus Christ? Yeah, in His very Own words He said there were none good and that a bad tree cannot produce a good fruit. Is faith a good friut? I am not calling it a work. Scripture calls it a fruit of the Spirit. It is not a fruit of the flesh... the natural man so many of you love to claim is capable of doing what Scripture says he cannot.
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