In your opinion is the entire Bible "inerrant" or "infallible" as it relates to scripture?

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rewriter said:
Where have I denied the Holy Bible? In fact, I have maintained that contains truth. Or are you suggesting that when occasionally Paul states that is it his word, not God's that he is passing along that someone is lying? If ALL scripture is God's word, as you seem to be maintaining, any time Paul claims to be giving his word, not God's, someone is lying, and since it is all God's word, the only possible liar becomes?

Now by my acknowledging that the Holy Bible contains truth, I have no problem with Paul claiming to be speaking for himself, not God, thus avoiding this dilemma that you must find a way to twist yourself into a pretzel to avoid.

As to the "obviously not all science", how does one distinguish? Is the science that YOU perceive as not contradicting YOUR specific understanding of the Bible the only valid science or is it up to every individual to make their own assumptions about the value of science. Are you the God appointed arbitrator of scientific knowledge and by what means that all may be aware of did this happen? Can you support your position with clear scripture, bearing in mind that one of the words that is of unclear exact meaning is in 2 Timothy 3:16 so that verse is ambiguous, as are various other verses, including many in John which appears to have been edited from its original text (appears to have two different endings), much like Mark clearly has been (four known different endings).

Or, of course, you can bury your head in the sand, cover your ears and chant "I cannot see you, I cannot hear you". But I think we all knoiw how mature such an attitude is.
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Please try to explain how your response responds to this conversation. I do not accuse you or anyone else of anything. Truth is not on the table. Understanding where your "Truth" comes from is.
 
biblestudent78 said:
Exactly how does the recounting of history threaten you so much? If you do not track your beliefs to these little popes, please explain where your interpretation of the New Testament is at variance with human history?
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You are not even making sense! I and others have told you many times, Scripture is from God. You are obviously choosing to refuse this fact!

You want to make it out to be your little history quest in trying validate that all of the Bible is from men sitting in caves someplace, conjuring up doctrines. Illogical!!
 
TruthDefender said:
Verses to ponder, and reasons why many of us have a particular mindset; and reasons why we are not so accepting:

“I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
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If I have "turned away" from so "truth" please be specific by identifying it. My point is that almost to a person, your "truth" was conceptualized by men and one woman from the 16th to the 21st Century. Can you deal with that position? "If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him (or her) be accursed." True. But, as you well know your "gospel" is remarkably different from thousands of other Christian interpretations of the "truth." Where does your Gospel truth lie in the panoply of accepted "Gospel truth" as expressed and faithfully believed by the "Other" billions of Christians. If I am noting that what you accept as Gospel Truth is probably rejected by the majority of Christians alive today does that fact enrage you? if so, why?
 
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Citizen said:
Lots of words and false assumptions made, but it all boils down to the same thing. Knowing that you push for a rejection of Sola Scriptura and that your post is written in response to GWH's "No popes allowed" comment, your argument seems to be something like -

1. RCC has a pope.
2. Non-RCC denominations have 'little popes'.
3. See? We're all the same! Now let's just all celebrate our diversity and get along, set aside sola scriptura, and unite under one umbrella of compromised beliefs.

Hard pass.

Where are those 50,000 churches that aggressively deny the validity of other churches as Christian, by the way? If you're going to make such a ridiculous statement, you really need to back it up with facts.
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Citizen, let's start with the simple divisions related to how one is saved. In one corner we that the Calvinists and neo-Calvinists comprising largely are: The Presbyterian Churches: Denominations like the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (Note: The much larger PCUSA is historically Reformed, but more "liberal." In the modern day, it is largely represented by the Continental Reformed, Presbyterian, and Congregational traditions, as well as parts of the Anglican, Baptist and Waldensian traditions, in addition to a minority of people belonging to the Methodist faith (known as Calvinistic Methodists) The core "Truth" of Calvinism is that God decided before He created the world who would be saved, thus all others are condemned to hell. Nobody "chosen" can fall no matter how anti-Christ their life and nobody no matter how devout and faithful can be saved. Jesus died only for the "elect" and nobody else.

Those supporting the Calvinistic theology include:
John Piper: Former pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis and founder of Desiring God. He is a primary figure in modern "New Calvinism." John MacArthur: Pastor-teacher of Grace Community Church in California and featured voice on Grace to You. While some debate his classification because he does not adhere to traditional Covenant Theology, his soteriology (doctrine of salvation) is historically Calvinistic. Tim Keller: The founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City and a key figure in the The Gospel Coalition network. Tim Challies R.C. Sproul: Founder of Ligonier Ministries and a widely celebrated Reformed theologian and pastor. Mark Dever: Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D.C. and primary leader of 9Marks. Matt Chandler: Lead pastor of The Village Church in Texas and a prominent preacher within the Acts 29 Network. Charles Spurgeon (Historical): Often called the "Prince of Preachers," this 19th-century English Baptist pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London heavily championed Calvinist doctrines.

Those supporting Arminian theology which opposes Calvin theology include:
Billy Graham. Methodist and Wesleyan TraditionsThe United Methodist Church (UMC): The largest representative of Wesleyan theology, affirming free will and prevenient grace.The Wesleyan Church and Free Methodist Church: Both stem directly from the 18th-century Methodist movement and uphold Arminian soteriology.The Church of the Nazarene: A prominent denomination in the broader Holiness movement that strictly adheres to the teachings of Jacobus Arminius and John Wesley.2. Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches Assemblies of God (AG): The largest Pentecostal denomination, which holds that Christ died for all and affirms the believer's free will to accept or reject grace.Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) and Church of God in Christ (COGIC): Both emphasize personal choice in salvation and the empowering work of the Holy Spirit.International Church of the Foursquare Gospel: Another major charismatic body that aligns with Arminian views on grace and atonement.3. Baptist Denominations Free Will Baptists: This group historically rejects the Calvinist doctrine of "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved," teaching instead that believers can fall from grace.General Baptists. Unlike the "Particular Baptists" (who are Calvinist), General Baptists trace their heritage to the early 17th century, advocating for a general/unlimited atonement.

Brethren and Pietist: Brethren Church (Ashland), Brethren in Christ Church, Church of the United Brethren in Christ, Evangelical Congregational Church, Evangelical Covenant Church, Evangelical Free Church of America [SEA editor’s note: the Evangelical Free Church of America is officially neutral on Arminian vs. Calvinist vs. Lutheran soteriology and allows all of them.

Holiness (these are mostly offshoots of the Methodist tradition): The Christian and Missionary Alliance, Church of Christ, Holiness, Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), Church of God (Holiness), Church of the Nazarene, Churches of Christ in Christian Union, Churches of God, General Conference (Winebrenner), The Free Methodist Church of North America, The Wesleyan Church are Armenian

Christian and Restorationist Churches (Stone-Campbellite Tradition): Independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, Christian Congregation, Inc. are Arminian

Adventist: Advent Christian Church General Conference, Grace Communion International (formerly the Worldwide Church of God).

Pentecostal: Assemblies of God, International Fellowship of Christian Assemblies, Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee), Church of God in Christ, Congregational Holiness Church, Elim Fellowship, Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God, Independent Assemblies of God, Fellowship of Christian Assemblies, International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, International Pentecostal Holiness Church, Open Bible Churches, Pentecostal Church of God, Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church, United Holy Church of God, Vineyard Churches International are Arminian.

Protestantism makes up about 40% of the U.S. population, and the vast majority of these denominations fall under the Arminian umbrella rather than the Calvinist (Reformed) umbrella.

Explicitly Arminian/Wesleyan Denominations: The United Methodist Church, the Global Methodist Church, the Church of the Nazarene, the Wesleyan Church, and the Assemblies of God (along with most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches) are fundamentally rooted in Arminian soteriology.

Baptist and Non-Denominational Churches: The Southern Baptist Convention (the largest Protestant body) and the booming non-denominational sector mostly practice a form of Arminianism. While they often include a blend of beliefs—such as pairing the Arminian view of free choice with the Calvinist view of "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved"—their day-to-day theology emphasizes individual choice.

The Restoration Movement: Churches of Christ and Christian Churches reject Calvinism outright, emphasizing human responsibility and the personal decision to accept faith and baptism.

The Catholic Dynamic: While Roman Catholics (19% of the U.S. population) are not Protestant and do not identify as Arminian, Catholic soteriology similarly rejects Calvinist double-predestination and strongly emphasizes free will, aligning them closer to the Arminian side of the spectrum.

So there are some "facts" and as you will note each traces its beliefs and subsequent Truth about salvation to those of the 16th, 18th and 21st centuries.

If you have counter facts, please present them.
 
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TruthDefender said:
You are not even making sense! I and others have told you many times, Scripture is from God. You are obviously choosing to refuse this fact!

You want to make it out to be your little history quest in trying validate that all of the Bible is from men sitting in caves someplace, conjuring up doctrines. Illogical!!
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I am documenting human history. What are you "documenting" other than your personal beliefs?
 
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biblestudent78 said:
If I have "turned away" from so "truth" please be specific by identifying it. My point is that almost to a person, your "truth" was conceptualized by men and one woman from the 16th to the 21st Century. Can you deal with that position?
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NO, because it’s a flat out lie!!

Can you deal with this: The apostles doctrine is not from men, it’s from God the Father.
biblestudent78 said:
"If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him (or her) be accursed." True. But, as you well know your "gospel" is remarkably different from thousands of other Christian interpretations of the "truth." Where does your Gospel truth lie in the panoply of accepted "Gospel truth" as expressed and faithfully believed by the "Other" billions of Christians. If I am noting that what you accept as Gospel Truth is probably rejected by the majority of Christians alive today does that fact enrage you? if so, why?
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This is easy to answer! As I told you again, and again, which you are obviously not comprehending… Many churches are abiding in another gospel, not from the apostles doctrine. Get it??

All the denominations are abiding in another doctrine, following some man’s doctrine that has been altered from the original apostles doctrine. Get it??
 
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But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I Corinthians 2

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalm 12
 
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TruthDefender said:
NO, because it’s a flat out lie!!

Can you deal with this: The apostles doctrine is not from men, it’s from God the Father.

This is easy to answer! As I told you again, and again, which you are obviously not comprehending… Many churches are abiding in another gospel, not from the apostles doctrine. Get it??

All the denominations are abiding in another doctrine, following some man’s doctrine that has been altered from the original apostles doctrine. Get it??
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So which one is abiding with the original apostles doctrine?
 
HealthAndHappiness said:
View attachment 290917
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I Corinthians 2

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalm 12
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Great scriptural salad. What do they mean?
 
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GabrielMarques said:
The Apostolic creed is laid out in the Sermon of the Mount by Christ himself.
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The Apostolic creed is as follows:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.
The Apostles' Creed in its final form was developed around the 7th or 8th century, but its roots are in much earlier, 2nd to 4th-century formulas, most notably the Old Roman Creed (dating to roughly 340 AD) developed under the guidance of the Roman Government. While legend once suggested it was written by the 12 apostles, modern scholarship shows it developed from baptismal confessions

What Apostles were there for the Sermon on the Mount? The bible says "his disciples" were with him. Does yours say Apostles? Does you bible say the Apostles later preached the Sermon on the Mount? if so where? Only Matthew records the sermon but as far as I know there it is never repeated anywhere in the New Testament. So, what Apostolic Creed are you referring to?
 
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biblestudent78 said:
I do not claim inerrancy as apparently you do. So give me the "proper interpretation."
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I was responding to TruthDefender who insists that he knows the proper interpretation. Personally, I hold that scripture contains truth, but inerrancy is a myth. I know of three different versions of the OT, with mostly minor differences, but still differences, and that of the three, the official OT, the Masoretic Text, bears the fewest connections to the NT. In fact, some I am aware that until the last half of the 20th century, some quotes and prophesies in the NT had no known sources as the necessary passages did not occur in any known texts until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered and translated.
 
rewriter said:
I was responding to TruthDefender who insists that he knows the proper interpretation. Personally, I hold that scripture contains truth, but inerrancy is a myth. I know of three different versions of the OT, with mostly minor differences, but still differences, and that of the three, the official OT, the Masoretic Text, bears the fewest connections to the NT. In fact, some I am aware that until the last half of the 20th century, some quotes and prophesies in the NT had no known sources as the necessary passages did not occur in any known texts until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered and translated.
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You couldn’t have said this to my face??

I never stated perfection! No church is perfect, but we strive to be so. This is the difference.
 
biblestudent78 said:
The Apostolic creed is as follows:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.
The Apostles' Creed in its final form was developed around the 7th or 8th century, but its roots are in much earlier, 2nd to 4th-century formulas, most notably the Old Roman Creed (dating to roughly 340 AD) developed under the guidance of the Roman Government. While legend once suggested it was written by the 12 apostles, modern scholarship shows it developed from baptismal confessions

What Apostles were there for the Sermon on the Mount? The bible says "his disciples" were with him. Does yours say Apostles? Does you bible say the Apostles later preached the Sermon on the Mount? if so where? Only Matthew records the sermon but as far as I know there it is never repeated anywhere in the New Testament. So, what Apostolic Creed are you referring to?
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This is not the whole thing. Lol
It’s the entire NC.
 
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