Is cessation an observation or theology?

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A. Continuationism is often defined as the proposition that the spiritual gifts are ONGOING. Let me clarify this, somewhat.
My own belief that the gifts have not ceased does not mean I believe they ALWAYS occur with the same level of intensity and frequency.

B. Indeed, when I read the historical accounts written by Christians, it seems that such spiritual manifestations wax and wanes over time. Therefore, saying they COULD happen at any time is not the same as saying they always WILL occur. It is similar to how many see those dramatic movements of God we call "revivals.' The Holy Spirit primary in bringing about revivals. However, we humans also play an role in the process through repentance, prayer and obedience. This is how Israel experienced revivals in their time.

C. People sometimes think I am inconsistent when I admit to having certain neurological and physical afflictions.
THAT kind of thinking is what defines WOF theology not Continuationism.

D. I also do not believe the charismata are an permanent endowment of power or knowledge that I can USE whenever I wish. This is the premise upon which Cessationists base such challenges as "Well if you have the gift of healing why do you not empty out the hospitals?" The same challenge could be put to Jesus. Why did HE not cure every last sick person in Israel? Sometimes the word says he healed everyone in a certain group yet there always seemed to be more sick people.

E. Even the Son of God had God's power on tap to dispense as He wished. As a human He limited himself to do only what the Father showed Him to do:

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jesus refused to perform miracles in the face of stubborn unbelief because doing so would harm, not help, the people involved. When someone refuses to accept what their own eyes are showing them, each additional sign only drives them deeper into resistance, hardening the will instead of opening the heart. Jesus’ motive was love: He would not force people into a deeper rejection of the truth. This is why He told His disciples that when a town refuses to receive the message, they should simply walk away and shake the dust off their feet—not out of spite, but to avoid pushing people into a more entrenched unbelief.
 
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Well I have experienced healing myself and seen many miracles. I've prayed for people to be healed myself. Lord Jesus gave the power to heal to all His disciples, not just to the 12. That is part of the problem, the idea that there is a special class of believers that are the only ones who may minister.

The ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11 are to equip the saints for ministry. Stephen was a deacon, yet he performed signs and wonders. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There will need to be apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors as long as there are believers who need to be equipped.

The church is a mess precisely because a group of self proclaimed "elites" shut out those who God has called to ministry. Those self proclaimed leaders ensure that only those that they approve of become the next generation of ministers. So those people go to the approved theological institution to get an approved denomination indoctrination and then get thrown into a den of the critical and ungrateful. And often, the pastor is paid peanuts to be on call 24/7.

Thousands of pastors are walking away. Many denominations can't get a professional pastor. In itself, that is pathetic. To be a pastor is a calling of God, not an appointment by a board who demands doctrinal conformity to denominational biases.

Peter warned that judgement begins with the house of God and what can be shaken will be. It's underway right now.​

There's nothing wrong with praying for others, or yourself. That's not the gift of healing.

The Apostles were chosen by Jesus. That's a special class. They were listed because they were part of the Church when those letters, or Epistles were written. That's the reason why their gifts are also listed. When the Apostles go (plus the 70), their gifts that were unique to their ministry go with them. To use your illustration, if the baby is taken out of the bathwater, clean, the bathwater is no longer needed. That for which the bathwater was intended, to clean, has done what it was needed for. We have the Word delivered and confirmed by those who preached it, who were also confirmed. All the purposes of the sign gifts are complete. That which they pointed to have come and gone.

Notice that in some of those lists, those who have gifts of "various healings" was listed separate from miracles in 1 Corinthians 12:9-10. Just like we have different doctors specializing in different areas. It's not all hocus pocus. The guy who sweeps the front steps of the church, that's a gift from God. As Alistair Begg once said, "anything good that comes from us for the Church is a gift from God." I couldn't say it any better.

Besides, your version of those gifts is a redefining of them. What is happening today does not meat Biblical standards.
 
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There's nothing wrong with praying for others, or yourself. That's not the gift of healing.

The Apostles were chosen by Jesus. That's a special class. They were listed because they were part of the Church when those letters, or Epistles were written. That's the reason why their gifts are also listed. When the Apostles go (plus the 70), their gifts that were unique to their ministry go with them. To use your illustration, if the baby is taken out of the bathwater, clean, the bathwater is no longer needed. That for which the bathwater was intended, to clean, has done what it was needed for. We have the Word delivered and confirmed by those who preached it, who were also confirmed. All the purposes of the sign gifts are complete. That which they pointed to have come and gone.

Notice that in some of those lists, those who have gifts of "various healings" was listed separate from miracles in 1 Corinthians 12:9-10. Just like we have different doctors specializing in different areas. It's not all hocus pocus. The guy who sweeps the front steps of the church, that's a gift from God. As Alistair Begg once said, "anything good that comes from us for the Church is a gift from God." I couldn't say it any better.

Besides, your version of those gifts is a redefining of them. What is happening today does not meat Biblical standards.
Well said but falling on deaf ears.
 
Were these miracles tangible physical supernatural manifestations or just your personal explanation of the event?
Actual physical manifestations. The first was healing of a liver that was damaged from several years of alcohol abuse. The pastor who prayed for described my symptoms precisely. I was healed instantly. The second was of chronic nosebleeds due a broken nose that was never set properly. My nose would bleed any time, in entirely inappropriate places, and stopping it was difficult. I've had no trouble since. I prayed for myself because I was still excited about the first healing.

It took me years to get out of the habit of checking my handkerchief or tissue after blowing my nose.

There are reasons why people do not get healed. That is clear in the New Testament. However, I know that God heals and also that demons are real and should be cast out.

I've prayed for people and seen them healed. I prayed for a man afflicted with an abscess. He was in agony, unable to move. It was Sunday and there was no after hours dentist available. He was healed instantly.

 
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Well said but falling on deaf ears.
What a sad understanding of God's love you doubters show. Healing is the children's bread, according to Jesus. Do you think that God loves people no less now because the Bible is finalised? You think God prefers to see people suffer now, even though Jesus told his disciples to preach and teach what He taught them. The disciples that the apostles taught were supposed to teach the believers that followed.
 
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Actual physical manifestations. The first was healing of a liver that was damaged from several years of alcohol abuse. The pastor who prayed for described my symptoms precisely. I was healed instantly. The second was of chronic nosebleeds due a broken nose that was never set properly. My nose would bleed any time, in entirely inappropriate places, and stopping it was difficult. I've had no trouble since. I prayed for myself because I was still excited about the first healing.

It took me years to get out of the habit of checking my handkerchief or tissue after blowing my nose.

There are reasons why people do not get healed. That is clear in the New Testament. However, I know that God heals and also that demons are real and should be cast out.

I've prayed for people and seen them healed. I prayed for a man afflicted with an abscess. He was in agony, unable to move. It was Sunday and there was no after hours dentist available. He was healed instantly.

Clearly we have a rather different understanding of "tangible physical supernatural manifestations".

Your miracles seem more like personal explanations.

No different then my Mormon co-worker.

God healed his chronic eczema and that's proof that the LDS church is correct.
 
Clearly we have a rather different understanding of "tangible physical supernatural manifestations".

Your miracles seem more like personal explanations.

No different then my Mormon co-worker.

God healed his chronic eczema and that's proof that the LDS church is correct.
never heard of such a foolish dismissal of ones testimony from one claiming to be a Christian. The difference in understanding is that you think God needs to you prove what he does on the Earth. maybe your Mormon co-worker has more faith then you. I gave his healing credit to God as you witnessed.
 
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Clearly we have a rather different understanding of "tangible physical supernatural manifestations".

Your miracles seem more like personal explanations.

No different then my Mormon co-worker.

God healed his chronic eczema and that's proof that the LDS church is correct.
You are clueless as to what tangible supernatural manifestations are. How do you know that the gospels are true? What we have are eyewitness accounts. Do you doubt them? Why not? Everything you read is a personal observation.

Clearly you are bound by doubt and unbelief. Your condescending attitude shows that you have no idea of what is Spiritual and therefore of God, and what is not.​
 
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Be careful in enlisting John Wesley to your point of view. There are many cases mentioned in his diary where he cautioned against and stopped, unusual outbursts of emotions, jerking and strange phenomena, including tongues.
John William Fletcher wrote that there is a ditch on both sides of the road. I have found that those who fall into the ditch of extreme emotionalism often get burned out, reject all subjective experience and go to the opposite ditch of not accepting anything that is not logical and predictable. As for Wesley, he went through a period where he was not receptive to any spontaneous move of God, which left him spiritually dry and barren. This went on until after he had encountered the Moravians who, unlike him, seemed to fellowship with the Spirit and to have real joy. I have never been subject to the soulish manifestations you speak of here because I found my emotions to be untrustworthy.
 
Tell us what you think the GIFT of HEALING.
Are the GIFTS OF HEALING (as you understand it) and PRAYING FOR HEALING mutually exclusive?

The gift of healing, the miraculous, is to confirm the message and the messenger. It wouldn't confirm them if everyone wasn't healed.

There are gifts of healing that are non miraculous. Like there are doctors who specialize in different things. Anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God.

Dave
 
The gift of healing, the miraculous, is to confirm the message and the messenger. It wouldn't confirm them if everyone wasn't healed.

There are gifts of healing that are non miraculous. Like there are doctors who specialize in different things. Anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God.

Dave
God bless the healers.
 
The gift of healing, the miraculous, is to confirm the message and the messenger. It wouldn't confirm them if everyone wasn't healed.

There are gifts of healing that are non miraculous. Like there are doctors who specialize in different things. Anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God.

Dave
very good explanation however, the gift of healing recorded in 1cor chapter 12 is for the church setting. It is a gift given to those who The Holy Spirit wills. We are told to seek and desire the gifts that are excellent.

This context is not saying that certain gifts are lesser but not all gifts are needed at the same time.

For example, is a person is sick, the gift of tongues and interpretation will not edify the person who is ill. They need healing . So desire and seek that at the time which is a more excellent gift that would bring glory to GOD and meet the need.

Seek the gift from the Holy Spirit that is more effective. The Holy Spirit will move on those who He wants to use and are open to being used.
1cor 12:4-11,27-31
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. the


verse 31 leads into chapter 13. The more excellent way is ensuring Love is what motivated you to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit and what you are operating them in. Not Self-premotions. Not for money, not for power. But to Edify, Comfort, and build up.
 
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John William Fletcher wrote that there is a ditch on both sides of the road. I have found that those who fall into the ditch of extreme emotionalism often get burned out, reject all subjective experience and go to the opposite ditch of not accepting anything that is not logical and predictable. As for Wesley, he went through a period where he was not receptive to any spontaneous move of God, which left him spiritually dry and barren. This went on until after he had encountered the Moravians who, unlike him, seemed to fellowship with the Spirit and to have real joy. I have never been subject to the soulish manifestations you speak of here because I found my emotions to be untrustworthy.
What is at issue is the validity of the event. If the claimed event did not happen then our perception of the event is moot. This is a common error of logic on this thread.

Example: John 5

Jesus purposely did a tangible physical supernatural manifestation for the masses to witness. This event did happen and so our response is paramount. But modern claims of the same are not happening. They are but claims that they are happening.

If the claims were really happening then you would have a point worth considering.
 
And every other testimony that conflicts with your unbelief. Never mind, you are the one who misses out on God's blessings.
Just get over yourself.

Someone's belief in another person's claim is not germane to the claims validity.

IOW:

And every other reality that conflicts with your beliefs. Never mind, you are the one who is missing out on God's blessing of faith without sight.
 
When people came to Jesus they were all healed. Same with the Apostles.
a). So, if I am reading your post correctly, every individual person in every group that encountered either Jesus OR the Apostles was always healed; including even those who did not believe or ask for it. Is this REALLY your position? Please correct me if I am wrong about what you are saying but it appears to me that your definition of the gift of healing is the divine ability to confer healing on anyone the healer chooses.

b). When we read about the Gift of Healing some believe understand the GIFT of healing as an endowment given to the person who dispenses healing. HOWEVER, the gift of healing is not a permanant endowment of power given to a Healer. Instead healing is given to the person who is in need of healing.

c). The idea that people are "healers" is like how Simon Magus viewed it.

d). When God brought about healing to someone through Peter and the Apostles they denied possessing the power.
11 While the man clung to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and ran to them in the walkway called Solomon’s Colonnade. 12 And when Peter saw this, he addressed the people: “Men of Israel, why are you surprised by this? Why do you stare at us as if by our own POWER or GODLINESS WE had made this man walk?
(Acts 3:11-12)
This scripture states that Peter had not been given a permanant endowment enabling him to heal anyone he chose to.
And remember, all who were healed, even miraculously, eventually died. Did their faith run dry?
Although Jesus on a few occasions did raise the dead He never said He was here to grant bodily immortality or that we would never die if we put our faith in Him. Besides, while our own Resurrection will be a result of what Jesus accomplished on the cross and by His own Resurrection that event will not take place until the appointed time.
The gift of healing was, as the Bible explains, to verify the message and the messenger.
Do you seem to think the ONLY reason Jesus healed people was to authenticate His Messianic credentials I believe that when Jesus healed people He did so out of His abundant compassion He has for humanity, to show us that He takes an active interest in our lives and desires, at least to some extent, alleviate our suffering?

Jesus primary mission was also to reveal the nature of the Father so we would draw near to Him.
3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
(John 17:3)
And those who had the true gift did heal all who came to them. That's the standard. What the modern day faith healers has done is put the burden of proof on the believer to have "enough faith", when in fact the true gift of healing through human agency verified the message and the messenger, not the believers faith.
You claim that the Biblical STANDARD for deciding whether miraculous healings are the result of the operation of TRUE GIFT of healing is whether or not EVERY individual in a given group of sick and infirm people is healed?
Let us test your hypothesis against the testimony of scripture:

Then He healed MANY who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him (Mark 1:32-34)
And that very hour He cured MANY of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight. Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.”
(Luke 7:21-22)
Although both these accounts say Jesus healed MANY it does not go as far as to say He healed them ALL. Thus Jesus Himself did not meet THE STANDARD of someone who had the true gift of healing.

If they put the burden of proof on your faith and not their results, it's a fraud.
Yes, I have seen how false Healers blame the sick person for not having enough faith to be healed. If they recover these same people will attribute the recovery to their OWN faith.
Everyone has the right to ask God to heal them, and if He does, it's usually through providence, that being non miraculous means.
The word "providence" is used only once in the Scriptures (Acts 24:2), where it refers, not to God, but to the forethought and work of man. By contrast, it seldom means this in current theological discussions which have become dominated by the philosophy of theistic determinism which Augustine imported into Christianity from the dualistic cult of Manichaeism to which he had belonged before his conversion.

Sometimes God does heal miraculously in answer to PRAYER, but that's not the gift of healing.
Can you define the difference between healing that come as an anwer to prayer versus those which comes about because of what the Bible calls "The Gift of Healing?" Isn't it true that prayer can result in miraculous interventions by God? In Matthew 7:7, Jesus said: 7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…
Does God typically heal those who do not ask for it and do not seek Him for it and do not even believe it could happen?

Acts 3:6-8 even those who didn't ask for it.
The text has nothing to say about whether the lame man had prayed for relief or how much he had done so over the years. I think it is reasonable to assume that he had given the profound limitations his impairment had imposed on his life. Still it is not a stretch to deduce his condition was often on his mind. The point is that when Peter commanded him in the name of Jesus to rise and walk he did not resist by saying "But, sir, I cannot walk" Instead, he believed and rising to his feet. He walked. Desperation usually present before people are willing to believe.
 
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