Was Judas Iscariot saved, or was he not?

[Lamar]

You don't seem able to remain truthful if the truth reveals your error. Is it pride? Let's talk about Jesus. Do you suppose Jesus said to Judas 'well done thou good and faithful servant' or, did He say 'I never knew you' meaning the reality of Christ, who He is and who He is to the person?

Why do you constantly evade answering questions and then pretend you asked them? You are not to be believed when you accuse others of saying things they never said. Is it gaslighting?

Again, did Judas cast out demons and heal the sick?

It is you who is evading.

On your question of:

"Do you suppose Jesus said to Judas 'well done thou good and faithful servant' or, did He say 'I never knew you' meaning the reality of Christ, who He is and who He is to the person?"

I doubt Jesus will say "well done thou good and faithful servant" but if Judas is part of the elect then maybe.

That's if you believe in such a thing as election.

 

[Magenta]

Again, did Judas cast out demons and heal the sick?

Scripture does not say he did. Are you arguing from silence?

Being sent out to do something does not mean that particular something was done.

This seems pretty obvious and remedial to me but maybe people need more hand holding on this issue.

Judas was not a believer, and Jesus knew this, but people still labor over it for some mysterious reason.

 

[Lamar]

You don't seem able to remain truthful if the truth reveals your error. Is it pride? Let's talk about Jesus. Do you suppose Jesus said to Judas 'well done thou good and faithful servant' or, did He say 'I never knew you' meaning the reality of Christ, who He is and who He is to the person?

Why do you constantly evade answering questions and then pretend you asked them? You are not to be believed when you accuse others of saying things they never said. Is it gaslighting?

Again, did Judas cast out demons and heal the sick?

It is you who is evading.

On your question of:

"Do you suppose Jesus said to Judas 'well done thou good and faithful servant' or, did He say 'I never knew you' meaning the reality of Christ, who He is and who He is to the person?"

I doubt Jesus will say "well done thou good and faithful servant" but if Judas is part of the elect then maybe.

That's if you believe in such a thing as election.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I think Judas was an unbeliever, namely that he's called by Jesus....

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17

Perdition in context seems to mean damnation

Yep. Perishing, utter destruction, damnation, ...

 

[EmethAlethia]

Judas was "Called" by God/Jesus.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

And, he was lost and headed for hell. (The meaning for the word perdition.)

Joh. 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And Jesus had this to say:

Mat 26:23 And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. 24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

And yes Judas did heal and cast out demons with the true Christians. But that's not an exception. The same word "Many" is used in both passages with the same "end result". The vast masses of those who believe Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior, even with the exact same signs and wonders of the true Christians of the first century are still headed for destruction and will not see life. Mat. 7:13-14

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[EmethAlethia]

Scripture does not say he did. Are you arguing from silence?

Being sent out to do something does not mean that particular something was done.

This seems pretty obvious and remedial to me but maybe people need more hand holding on this issue.

Judas was not a believer, and Jesus knew this, but people still labor over it for some mysterious reason.

Actually, Jesus gave all 12 the same authority to cast out demons and perform miracles. But that's no different than what He says in MaT. 7:22-23.

Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

 

[Lamar]

Scripture does not say he did. Are you arguing from silence?

verse 13 - "And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them."

Why would you ask such a question?

Whom do you suspect were among the "they"? Was Judas not an Apostle?

Being sent out to do something does not mean that particular something was done.

That particular something was done and done by the Apostles.

Judas was not a believer, and Jesus knew this, but people still labor over it for some mysterious reason.

Regardless of what Judas was or was not, election determines salvation not our beliefs or actions.

That's if you believe that kind of stuff.

 

[JohnDB]

How come I am discussing when Saul was in the field and Samuel found him to anoint him as king you are talking about something that happens many years later?

Because scriptures say, directly contradicting you, that the Holy Spirit can come upon men when they are sinful.

You cannot be one step away from sinless perfection in order to gain the Holy Spirit. Because then salvation would be all about works and not grace.

Scripture is PAINFULLY clear on this subject. It never was about our righteousness.....it ALWAYS was about Jesus's righteousness.

 

[JohnDB]

verse 13 - "And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them."

Why would you ask such a question?

Whom do you suspect were among the "they"? Was Judas not an Apostle?


That particular something was done and done by the Apostles.

Regardless of what Judas was or was not, election determines salvation not our beliefs or actions.

That's if you believe that kind of stuff.

Judas was the Son of Perdition....
He was condemned in the Old Testament.

What?
People think God does not know the future?
People think that if they are too sinful they can thwart God?
People think dumb things all the time. Doesn't make it true.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, Jesus gave all 12 the same authority to cast out demons and perform miracles. But that's no different than what He says in MaT. 7:22-23.

Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

Actually I never said otherwise, but you may have noticed the subject is about Judas. No?

 

[lrs68]

You are making an argument from silence. I could state with equal authority that “Nowhere does Scripture claim that Catholic popes have no authority over all Christians therefore it seems unscriptural to assume otherwise.”

Jesus told the disciples in John 14:17 that the Holy Spirit was WITH them but not yet IN them. It is reasonable to conclude (not assume) the same was true for all their ministries until Pentecost. That would include Judas’ ministry.

Without Scripture you are just voicing opinion and that's equivalent to man made Doctrine.

 

[lrs68]

Would you point that out in the law? Clearly one day is like the next to you. What were the circumstances of having sins covered, sine they were not actually forgiven, under the law?

Got a heifer? Did Judas offer one at the temple or did he kill himself?

Until Yeshua died those under the Law were still in the same condition as those going back to Moses. You know that's fact but you would rather use opinion over Scripture to fit your personal doctrine.

 

[lrs68]

Because scriptures say, directly contradicting you, that the Holy Spirit can come upon men when they are sinful.

You cannot be one step away from sinless perfection in order to gain the Holy Spirit. Because then salvation would be all about works and not grace.

Scripture is PAINFULLY clear on this subject. It never was about our righteousness.....it ALWAYS was about Jesus's righteousness.

Scripture tells us God sent Samuel to find Saul who was in the field watching donkeys. Then after finding Saul Samuel anointed Saul King. At that moment there was no David. Stop making things up. That is what Scripture tells us and you don't like it tell it to God. But at that moment Saul was saved in the anointing.

 

[JohnDB]

Scripture tells us God sent Samuel to find Saul who was in the field watching donkeys. Then after finding Saul Samuel anointed Saul King. At that moment there was no David. Stop making things up. That is what Scripture tells us and you don't like it tell it to God. But at that moment Saul was saved in the anointing.

WRONG.
Saul's was anointed as a Military Commander....not as a king.

Just because you keep repeating a lie does not make it any more true than the first time you lied.

 

[JohnDB]

Scripture does not say he did. Are you arguing from silence?

Being sent out to do something does not mean that particular something was done.

This seems pretty obvious and remedial to me but maybe people need more hand holding on this issue.

Judas was not a believer, and Jesus knew this, but people still labor over it for some mysterious reason.

There are subjects you do argue from silence....two that I can think of off the top of my head.....
But they are pretty big silences with huge gongs next to them.

One is in this thread with Saul becoming king instead of just a military commander. (1&2Samuel is a lymeric with complicated language)
And the other is the lesson at Cesaerea Phillipi with Jesus asking "Who do you say that I am?"....

 

[JohnDB]

But at that moment Saul was saved in the anointing.

Saul was never "saved". He, like Judas, was simply used to achieve God's divine purposes. In fact Saul was always doomed. He "took" God's kingdom and made himself ruler over it. (The people wanting it is not relevant) Just like God knew he would...and that Saul would have to pay the ultimate price for taking what did not belong to him. (Just like Judas)

God uses the Elect and the heathen to achieve His purposes. He used Cyrus of the Medio-Persian Empire. Calls him out by name in Isaiah as well 600 years before he was born. Daniel reads the scroll to Darius the Mede....giving him two bits of news at the same time concerning the future.....

Unless you now want to make the claim that God somehow does not know the future or the choices we will make long before we were born....

 

[DavidLamb]

WRONG.
Saul's was anointed as a Military Commander....not as a king.

Just because you keep repeating a lie does not make it any more true than the first time you lied.

What about these words of the prophet Samuel:

(1Sa 15:1) Samuel also said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you king over His people, over Israel. Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the LORD.

 

[JohnDB]

This term "SAVED" as in simple past tense when the truth is that we humans are not saved yet....still have to be resurrected and we have not died yet.

This is where we run smack into Schröedingers Cat.....a superposition of several things being true at the same time as well as not true. (Alive and dead; mortal and immortal) The chief thing being that you cannot look to see or know definitively.

And the term came about from the use of poorly translated Perfect Aortist tense of Greek and Latin into English which has no multiple tense vocabulary. The perfect Aortist tense is translated into past tense in English but in truth means ALL THREE tenses at the same time....past, present, and future.
So....stop using the term. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[JohnDB]

What about these words of the prophet Samuel:

(1Sa 15:1) Samuel also said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you king over His people, over Israel. Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the LORD.

Bad bad translation. Use a different one. The word "King" doesn't apply.

It's been a few years since I looked at all of this....but Samuel is a book of subtleties. And Saul was never to be King.

He took the kingship....bad bad ju ju.

 

[DavidLamb]

Bad bad translation. Use a different one. The word "King" doesn't apply.

It's been a few years since I looked at all of this....but Samuel is a book of subtleties. And Saul was never to be King.

He took the kingship....bad bad ju ju.

I may be wrong, because I don't know Hebrew, but I understand that the same word is translated "king" in the verse I quote as is used for "king" in this verse about David:

(2Sa 2:11) And the time that David was king in Hebron over the house of Judah was seven years and six months.

And of Solomon in this verse:

(1Ki 1:53) So King Solomon sent them to bring him down from the altar. And he came and fell down before King Solomon; and Solomon said to him, "Go to your house."

It is the word "melek". What does it mean, if not king? I have looked up I Samuel 15:1 in twelve English translations, and they all say "king."